381 La haine

Message

Kinsayder · #51 Post by **Kinsayder** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:26 am

I don't think Criterion will have much difficulty improving on the Optimum R2 UK edition, which looks very soft. A comparison with the Studio Canal French R2 on this page.

soma · #52 Post by **soma** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:17 am

I have the Optimum 2 disc SE. Will definitely be upgrading. This is a fantastic film and I agree with the statement re: one of the most important French films of the last 15 years. All class.

Fantastic news Criterion, 2007 is just looking up and up...

criterionsnob · #53 Post by **criterionsnob** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:21 pm

Beaver

eez28 · #54 Post by **eez28** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:54 pm

criterionsnob wrote:Beaver

There are spoilers on some of those screen caps at the end.

manicsounds · #55 Post by **manicsounds** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:33 pm

I'm actually considering upgrading the Optimum steelbook......

Cinesimilitude · #56 Post by **Cinesimilitude** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:41 pm

If anyone is buying this for just the improved film transfer, I'd go half and half to get disc 2 for the features, since I already have the HD-DVD.

Cinesimilitude · #57 Post by **Cinesimilitude** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:06 pm

It's looks amazing, great contrast and extremely sharp. The opening credits are very pixelated and grainy, but it's obvious they were meant to look that way because the names are crisp. It's an Optimum UK release, so it does have english subs. The HD was my first viewing of the film, and I understood everything fine. The only extra is the trailer in SD, but it's definitely worth the 14 quid I paid for it.

Cinesimilitude · #58 Post by **Cinesimilitude** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:39 pm

well, I'm not sure if its just the SD source in High Def, or a new transfer, but I can guarantee that on a large screen, it's the best the film is going to look until criterion does it in HD.

Kinsayder · #59 Post by **Kinsayder** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:21 pm

DVDBeaver wrote:I have not heard the Optimum commentary (nor the French) but Criterion state that their commentary is a new one - recorded specifically for them in 2006 in Paris.

You have to admire Kassovitz's dedication. This is the fourth commentary track he's recorded for the film: one in French (1999), two more in 2005 for the 10th anniversary editions (one in French, one in English), and now this new one for Criterion. Add another French one by Vincent Cassel on the Studio Canal edition, and this could be the most commented French film ever put on DVD.

zombeaner · #60 Post by **zombeaner** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:11 am

I got my shipping notice for La Haine from DVDPlanet this morning! Over 2 weeks early. I'm very excited!

Andreas · #61 Post by **Andreas** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:38 pm

I got the haine-dvd today and was thinking about the logos before the film started. It was three of them, CC, Universal and Studio Canal. CC is releasing the dvd and Studio Canal produced the film, but why is there a Universal Logo?

The Fanciful Norwegian · #62 Post by **The Fanciful Norwegian** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:46 pm

This was covered on page 2. Universal got the U.S. rights when they acquired Polygram's catalog.

Andreas · #63 Post by **Andreas** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:56 pm

Ah Thanks, shall remember to look back next time. But can someone please tell a highschoolstudent from Sweden who don't know much about dvd-distribution how CC can release it if Universal got the US rights?

Andreas · #64 Post by **Andreas** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:56 pm

aha, and thats whats going on with Paramount now to?

mikeohhh · #65 Post by **mikeohhh** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:22 pm

davidhare wrote:Not quite - Universal USA owns basically the entire Paramount pre-1948 catalogue.

No, he means why we're all busting a nut over Ace in the Hole, If...., White Dog (oh pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease) and others hopefully.

But what david says here is true, Andreas - which is why when you watch some Universal-licensed CC discs like Scarlet Empress, Trouble in Paradise or the Sturgeses you'll see a Paramount logo beforehand.

#66 Post by **Matt** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:41 pm

Andreas, you might find this thread helpful (though it surely needs updating).

jbeall · #67 Post by **jbeall** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:39 pm

I watched the criterion release yesterday, and I'm really impressed with both the presentation and the extras. Only two quibbles:

1) The subtitles on the extras obscure the names/occupations of some of the speakers on "Ten Years of La Haine" feature.

2) Subtitle accuracy. When the boys ring the apartment intercom, they ask for "Asterix", and the tenant replies, "no, how about Obelisk?" I assume most criterion fiends are sophisticated enough to know who Asterix and Obelisk are, but the subtitles translate the dialogue as "Is Snoopy home" and the tenant's reply as "No, how about Charlie Brown?" I understand the motivation for translating the comic characters' names to fit our frame of reference, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't find it a little patronizing.

Otherwise, this is a great release, and I think criterion did a great job this package. If La Haine wasn't already a must-buy, the extras definitely put it into that category.

Kinsayder · #68 Post by **Kinsayder** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:44 pm

I can't remember if this arises in La Haine, but I always enjoy watching English subtitles when the verb "tutoyer" comes up. Some aspects of French culture are untranslatable.

skuhn8 · #69 Post by **skuhn8** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:04 pm

jbeall wrote:I watched the criterion release yesterday, and I'm really impressed with both the presentation and the extras. Only two quibbles:

1) The subtitles on the extras obscure the names/occupations of some of the speakers on "Ten Years of La Haine" feature.

2) Subtitle accuracy. When the boys ring the apartment intercom, they ask for "Asterix", and the tenant replies, "no, how about Obelisk?" I assume most criterion fiends are sophisticated enough to know who Asterix and Obelisk are, but the subtitles translate the dialogue as "Is Snoopy home" and the tenant's reply as "No, how about Charlie Brown?" I understand the motivation for translating the comic characters' names to fit our frame of reference, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't find it a little patronizing.

Otherwise, this is a great release, and I think criterion did a great job this package. If La Haine wasn't already a must-buy, the extras definitely put it into that category.

Very interesting point as far as subtitle translation in general. Is it possible that the CC followed another translation? That is: was there an 'official' translation that was issue-friendly? Personally, I would follow the Asterix/Obelisk translation more than a Snoopy/Charlie Brown one; in fact, the latter would be much more jarring as this is a very French film and I would expect much more local references.

Kinsayder · #70 Post by **Kinsayder** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:28 pm

According to this review, the Tartan release also changed Asterix to Snoopy. I've checked the Optimum and that retains Asterix in the subtitles.

Paul Moran · #71 Post by **Paul Moran** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:07 am

It's not just the Astérix references that have been changed. Several other French cultural references have been replaced with American ones or generalised. And the whole "feel" of the translation is more like, say, "Boyz 'n' the Hood" than a European film, IMO. This might be acceptable, perhaps even essential, for a mass-market USA DVD release, but surely we Criterion buyers don't need it? One obvious solution, with hindsight, would have been for Criterion to provide two subtitle tracks.

As usual, the Criterion liner claims a "new and improved subtitle translation". I hate to think what the original translation was like!

I made number of comparisons between the Criterion and Optimum translations, but I'm lazy and a slow typist, so I'll just quote two excerpts:

1) CRITERION (08:39)

Yo, Vinz!

Fuck off, Saïd!

Watch your mouth, asshole, or I'll slap your face!

1) OPTIMUM

[greeting not subtitled]

Shut up.

Talk nice to me, or I'll have to hit you.

2) CRITERION (86:25)

Hey, I see some skinheads.

Fuck Hitler!

Look, God's the one who makes shit, so he helps you take a dump.

Pass the joint.

You don't know shit about philosophy.

Listen to my poem: "The skinhead is a pinhead and his weenie is teeny!"

2) OPTIMUM

I can see some skinheads.

Down with Le Pen.

If God makes you shit, then everything is his shitty fault.

Pass me that joint, and listen to this poem: "The penis of Le Pen is hardly ever hard."

The Criterion is a lovely edition, with a superior transfer, but I'll be keeping my Optimum - for the subtitle translation.

Kinsayder · #72 Post by **Kinsayder** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:13 am

The references to Le Pen could be a head-scratcher for non-Europeans, but that's not necessarily a reason to change them. It's possible to understand what is meant in the context even if you don't know Le Pen's precise role in French far-right politics. (When I watch Letterman - as a Brit - I get the jokes even though I miss some of the cultural references.) Changing Le Pen to Hitler diminishes the characters by making them seem less aware of their political environment.

I'd like to have seen a more literal translation with perhaps a commentary track to explain the difficult bits (if indeed Kassovitz's commentary doesn't already do that).

These are the French subs for that bit about Le Pen:

Je vois des skins.

C'est toi le skin.

A bas Le Pen!

Si Dieu te fait chier, c'est que c'est lui qui fait pousser le caca.

Fais tourner le oin-j.

Plus vite!

Ecoute le poème: Le pénis de Le Pen, Ã peine il se hisse.

Napoleon · #73 Post by **Napoleon** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:38 am

The changes of the cultural references might not amount to much in the overall scope of the movie but isn't it still a compromise of the films original integrity. It's set in France in the mid 90's; it features immigrant kids on the edge of French society, so why are they NOT talking about Le Pen?
Plus are the kids in La Haine talking American-ese because they are mimicking American culture, or are they talking American-ese because the translation is done to accommodate an American audience?

How hard can it be to get someone to do a literal translation without polluting it with their own opinions on what is digestible to an American audience?

jbeall · #74 Post by **jbeall** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:52 pm

Napoleon wrote:The changes of the cultural references might not amount to much in the overall scope of the movie but isn't it still a compromise of the films original integrity. It's set in France in the mid 90's; it features immigrant kids on the edge of French society, so why are they NOT talking about Le Pen?
Plus are the kids in La Haine talking American-ese because they are mimicking American culture, or are they talking American-ese because the translation is done to accommodate an American audience?

How hard can it be to get someone to do a literal translation without polluting it with their own opinions on what is digestible to an American audience?

Excellent point, and I think that as criterion consumers, we buy/rent/watch these films because we're curious about other cultures, and that curiosity resides in what makes them different. If their culture was 'just like ours' there wouldn't be much point to watching these films. I watched this film in the first place because I was following the Nov. 2005 riots in the news, knew about Le Pen, Sarkozy, et al., and had heard that Kassovitz had predicted this ten years earlier. I imagine that most Americans who watch La Haine do so because they have some awareness of the cultural background of the film, so criterion is not just appealing to the lowest common denominator, they're appealing to a denominator lower than that which (minimally) comprises their self-selecting viewership.

lull · #75 Post by **lull** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:30 am

i just stumbled upon this thread as i'm waiting for my Haine set to arrive. any official comment from Criterion on these new subs (which, i agree, simply try to appeal to the lowest common denominator )?

thank god i understand french :) won't be needing the subs but it's a rare, and oddly disturbing, mistake coming from Criterion, imo.