239 The Lower Depths

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justeleblanc · #26 Post by **justeleblanc** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:57 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:I always assume that phenomena like this are due to "telecine jiggle" caused by shrinkage/strething of the film due to severe effects of aging.

And Criterion couldn't correct the image frame by frame so it doesn't shift?

jcelwin · #27 Post by **jcelwin** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:40 pm

I might see if they can replace my copy too, it seems the Kurosawa version on my disc comes with a shit subtitle translation. This must obviously be an error with my disc only; Criterion could not have purposely released it with such crap.

justeleblanc · #28 Post by **justeleblanc** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:44 pm

Point taken. I just didn't know it was a Universal image shake.

jcelwin · #29 Post by **jcelwin** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:56 pm

Sorry, I guess it did sound like I was giving you shit, but I really wasn't.

I just haven't mentioned how crap the subtitles are on the Kurosawa disc. You just happened to revive this page long enough for me to remember.

So, don't forget: Shit, shit subtitles. Shit.

Michael Kerpan · #30 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:58 pm

justeleblanc wrote:And Criterion couldn't correct the image frame by frame so it doesn't shift?

I think this would increase the cost of making the DVD by (at least) a factor of 10. This is the kind of thing that was done as part of the extremely expensive restoration of "M". This major restoration was NOT funded by a DVD company, but by a well-funded foundation.

#31 Post by **kinjitsu** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:22 pm

If anyone other than jcelwin has a problem with Linda Hoaglund's subtitle translation then please raise your hand.

Michael Kerpan · #32 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:44 pm

I have no problem with LH's translations.

justeleblanc · #33 Post by **justeleblanc** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:49 pm

jcelwin wrote:Sorry, I guess it did sound like I was giving you shit, but I really wasn't.

No worries. I give others shit all the time -- it's a forum, after all.

Too bad though about the extremely costly restoration. I wonder if I would be able to move every other frame myself if I were to download it to my computer. Could be an interesting task -- if I was under house arrest.

HerrSchreck · #34 Post by **HerrSchreck** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:15 am

I doubt the problem which occured on this maddening transfer happened during telecine (i e a print that's shrunken jumping around in the gate). It's in this case probably a result of the other perpetrator of frame jitter for old films, which is improper/unstable frame-to-frame lining up of print and blank when creating dupes... also responsible for the black lines running up top of some old films, most commonly silents... although many folks here will remember this problem in the old M dvd.

Steven H · #35 Post by **Steven H** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:37 am

I've been reading Nogami Teruyo's book about her life in films, Waiting on the Weather: Making Movies With Akira Kurosawa (which is dominated by anecdotes about Kurosawa, since she worked with him most of her professional life), and can't suggest it highly enough. Out of the few books I've read concering the director, fewer still give this much insight into how he worked, and what he believed was important in film (after I completely finish the book, I'll try and digest the information a bit more.) As an excerpt, here's a piece she wrote towards the end about Kurosawa and Jean Renoir:

Nogami Teruyo wrote:Kurosawa was extremely fond of Grand Illusion (1937). He read Renoir's autobiography and found it moving. Until then he had always refused to write his own autobiography, but after reading Renoir's, he decided to go ahead and try his own.

On the way back from London, Kurosawa met Renoir in Paris. Since they both had made film versions of Gorky's The Lower Depths, Kurosawa wanted to talk about that-only to have Renoir tell him, "Mine is not The Lower Depths. It is completely different from the original work."

"After treating me to a delicious French meal, when it came time to leave, Renoir came out to the front of the restaurant to see me off, and he kept standing there until the car went around a curve. The sight of him standing there is something I'll never forget. He's really a warm and broad-minded preson. A marvelous person. I'm glad I was able to meet him." Kurosawa would reminisce in tihs way.

HerrSchreck · #36 Post by **HerrSchreck** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:15 am

Another great quote about Renoir, which the more and more I think about it, the more and more I personally feel the same, comes from Kurosawa which I may have gleaned from my copy of LOWER DEPTHS, which goes

approximately

"I would like to have lived and grow old like Jean Renoir."

davida2 · #37 Post by **davida2** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:00 am

Steven H wrote:I've been reading Nogami Teruyo's book about her life in films, Waiting on the Weather: Making Movies With Akira Kurosawa (which is dominated by anecdotes about Kurosawa, since she worked with him most of her professional life), and can't suggest it highly enough.

Just added to my shopping list; working my way through Bock's Japanese Film Directors and Mellen's Voices From The Japanese Cinema...I've been spending too much $ already lately

Steven H · #38 Post by **Steven H** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:27 pm

davida, I continued our Japanese book discussion in The Best Books About Film thread, because I went off on a tangent.

tryavna · #39 Post by **tryavna** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:11 pm

I finally got around to watching the Renoir version and was really surprised to find that I enjoyed it more than the Kurosawa version. I realize that Kurosawa was more faithful to the original play and that the Renoir version is considered Renoir-lite. But something about the way Renoir opened up the play struck me as far more "cinematic" yet still in keeping with Gorky's essential qualities. Am I in the minority here? (Or perhaps I was just in a French mood when I watched it.)

By the way, I barely noticed the "jittering" that so many other posters have complained about. I didn't find it overly distracting or headache-inducing.

teddyleevin · #40 Post by **teddyleevin** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:49 pm

Criterion advertises that Kurosawa's comes with a Trailer, but I can't find it on the disk. Is this an error on their part, or am I just stupid.

pauling · #41 Post by **pauling** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:31 pm

I just grabbed it off the shelf and I see nothing about a trailer on either disc, sorry to say.

teddyleevin · #42 Post by **teddyleevin** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:50 pm

pauling wrote:I just grabbed it off the shelf and I see nothing about a trailer on either disc, sorry to say.

It's not on the case, but it's listed on Criterion's website.

â€¢ Original theatrical trailer for Kurosawa's The Lower Depths

jbeall · #43 Post by **jbeall** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:21 am

tryavna wrote:I finally got around to watching the Renoir version and was really surprised to find that I enjoyed it more than the Kurosawa version. I realize that Kurosawa was more faithful to the original play and that the Renoir version is considered Renoir-lite. But something about the way Renoir opened up the play struck me as far more "cinematic" yet still in keeping with Gorky's essential qualities. Am I in the minority here? (Or perhaps I was just in a French mood when I watched it.)

I haven't watched Kurosawa's version yet, so I can't compare the two, but I really enjoyed the Renoir version. I thought it had some terrific Renoir-esque shots (esp. when Gabin and Natasha(?) were framed in the doorway with the landlord going out to the police in the background, and some nice tracking shots, esp. the opening shot of the Baron. Even if The Lower Depths doesn't reach the heights of, say, Rules of the Game or The Grand Illusion, it's still full of these little moments of technical mastery, especially for 1936.

The character of "the actor" was hilarious. Between the actor in Lower Depths and Jacques Becker's portrayal of the poet in Boudu, you get the feeling Renoir likes to burst artists' self-important bubbles.

All in all, this may be considered Renoir-lite, but it's still fun and entertaining. I had put off watching this, but the hour and a half flew right by for me.

justeleblanc · #44 Post by **justeleblanc** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:39 am

I agree, even for Renoir-lite, it's pretty terrific. I just couldn't get past the shaking of the image. Did anyone else have this difficulty when watching the film?

jbeall · #45 Post by **jbeall** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:30 am

justeleblanc wrote:I agree, even for Renoir-lite, it's pretty terrific. I just couldn't get past the shaking of the image. Did anyone else have this difficulty when watching the film?

Didn't happen on the disc I received from netflix, fwiw.

Murasaki53 · #46 Post by **Murasaki53** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:43 am

Does anyone happen to know if the Bo Ying release of the Kurosawa version has decent English subtitles?

I'm not that interested in Renoir's effort and - given how much I tend to spend importing Criterion/Eclipse releases to the UK - would like to do this one on the cheap if I can.

Senya · #47 Post by **Senya** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:35 am

Murasaki53 wrote:Does anyone happen to know if the Bo Ying release of the Kurosawa version has decent English subtitles?

Don't go for the Bo Ying release. It's really bad.

Tommaso · #48 Post by **Tommaso** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:52 am

Senya wrote:Don't go for the Bo Ying release. It's really bad.

Seconded! I haven't seen "The Lower depths" from them, but only the early Kurosawas before they got out in decent versions elsewhere. Absolutely horrible image, and the subs were incredible: Apart from steady grammar errors which sometimes made it impossible to find out what was going on, Japanese names were changed into Chinese ones, and in the two "Sugata" films even the rivaling martial arts were 'chinesed' (does that word exist, probably not), with the result that one group thinks that their arts (Judo) are better than what the other does, i.e. Judo. If it hadn't been so horrible then that no other version existed, it would have actually been some fun....

Murasaki53 · #49 Post by **Murasaki53** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:04 pm

Thanks for the advice. I'll import the Criterion instead.

tartarlamb · #50 Post by **tartarlamb** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:43 pm

Jean Gabin and Louis Jouvet are so wonderful in the Renoir version that I really just wanted the film to follow their rags'n'riches friendship for the entire way. Alas, that wasn't the movie Renoir was making. After the fantastic "robbery" scene, the film loses momentum and sinks into pretty dull melodrama. Poor Gorky, poor Renoir. Also, some unbelievably bad faux-facial hair. Yowza!