World of Wong Kar Wai

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cowboydan
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:27 pm

Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#501 Post by cowboydan » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:59 pm

andyli wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:39 pm
cowboydan wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:58 pm
Could it have been because the dcp files the theatrical distributor is sending to the theaters is 25p ? So then they're using the same files for the stream as they would use for a real projection through a digital projector? (if Europe / HK cinemas still use 25 digital projection) I have very very little knowledge about this, so forgive me if what I'm speculating isn't applicable.
If you tell us the total length of the uploaded stream video, we can figure out if its a 24/23.976 discrepancy or a 25/23.976 one.
My rental already expired, unfortunately. I actually noticed the audio was pitched up before comparing. Purely from memory (hearing "Dream Person" and "California Dreamin" hundreds of times and the Baroque theme tons as well) I knew it sounded wrong. I was confirmed when playing the 2 versions simultaneously, it sounded so wonky. So I don't think it was 24/23.976 difference. I think it must be 25frames. I just don't know why and most importantly if it somehow will be the same way on the blu-ray.

Maybe I'll bite the bullet and rent "As Tears Go By". Then I can see if that one is also sped up or not. That may be an indicator of some sort as to whether all of the films are affected or not.

"As Tears Go By" is one that I'm very curious about. I love the film, more so the romantic parts and less the gangster stuff. The old BD is quite DNR'd and featured a blue tint throughout many scenes. Example: https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0 ... 54&i=2&l=0 The blue tint wasn't present on some of the DVD versions and I have no idea if it was present in the original theatrical run. If anyone has any clue about the film's original colors, I'd love to hear any evidence. The footage in the restoration trailer seems to remove the blue tint to a large degree, or entirely. I'll try to do some screenshots, but it's not going be a ton of them. Just enough to get a good idea of the visual differences.
Last edited by cowboydan on Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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andyli
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:46 pm

Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#502 Post by andyli » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:04 pm

cowboydan wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:59 pm
I just don't know why and most importantly if it somehow will be the same way on the blu-ray.
You can rest assured it's not gonna happen. If Criterion puts a 25fps main feature on its disc that'll be the day. They won't even do 24fps because 99.9999% percent of North American releases stick to 23.976 when presenting 24fps content.

cowboydan
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#503 Post by cowboydan » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:13 pm

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. My technical brain isn't thinking straight. I was thinking about some weird scenario where somehow they had exported / rendered the video at like 1.02x speed instead of 1x speed, but it still remained 24p. That would be a colossal failure.

In "As Tears Go By" I think there's a 24/23.976 discrepancy speed up. The audio pitch sounds basically the same to me though. The video goes out of sync very slightly and slowly but definitely.

cowboydan
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#504 Post by cowboydan » Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:17 am

As Tears Go By

Fortunately, there are no changes to the title card, opening credits, end credits, audio, music cues, or cut/edit. The only "editing" difference I noticed was during the iconic kissing scene. The fade to white in the restoration starts later, and lasts shorter than the original. I think the original pulls it off better.

I will let these caps speak for themselves. Again, only meant for comparing colors, not resolution, detail, or framing. Some are not exact frame matches. The first set are old BD vs new restoration. The second set is old DVD vs new restoration. (so much for limiting myself haha)

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MichaelB
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#505 Post by MichaelB » Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:40 am

If the audio is noticeably different, that suggests a 25/23.976 discrepancy.

Orlac
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#506 Post by Orlac » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:34 am

The blue filter look was not uncommon in late 80s/early 90s HK cinema - the trouble is a lot of the subsequent video masters lacked the filters. The HKL DVD of Crime Story is a case in point.

So the Megastar transfer of the Wong Kar Wai film may not necessarily be wrong.

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The Elegant Dandy Fop
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#507 Post by The Elegant Dandy Fop » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:46 am

Orlac wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:34 am
The blue filter look was not uncommo in late 80s/early 90s HK cinema - the trouble is a lot of the subsequent video masters removed the filters. The HKL DVD of Crime Story is a case in point.

So the Megastar transfer of the Wong Kar Wai film may not necessarily be wrong.
I’m glad this was brought up. The blue look is incredibly common in Hong King films of the period as is seen in practically every crime film. I’ve seen As Tears Go By on Blu-ray and on laserdisc and specifically remember how prevalent the blue was in the opening and in the restaurant scenes. It seems they timed it again to go more naturalistic.
cowboydan wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:58 pm
Could it have been because the dcp files the theatrical distributor is sending to the theaters is 25p ? So then they're using the same files for the stream as they would use for a real projection through a digital projector? (if Europe / HK cinemas still use 25 digital projection) I have very very little knowledge about this, so forgive me if what I'm speculating isn't applicable.
For online streaming like this, Janus Films would either upload an Apple ProRes file (which would be tremendous in size) or what’s more likely, an h.264 encoded .mpeg. I believe the global standard now for DCPs is 23.97fps, but most DCP projectors are able to handle other framerates like 25fps. A DCP wouldn’t be uploaded online either due to it’s unusual playback method and heavy encryption as most require a heavily modified Linux based playback system. If they did upload a 25fps version, I wonder how they slipped up?

Orlac
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#508 Post by Orlac » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:35 pm

The Elegant Dandy Fop wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:46 am
Orlac wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:34 am
The blue filter look was not uncommo in late 80s/early 90s HK cinema - the trouble is a lot of the subsequent video masters removed the filters. The HKL DVD of Crime Story is a case in point.

So the Megastar transfer of the Wong Kar Wai film may not necessarily be wrong.
I’m glad this was brought up. The blue look is incredibly common in Hong King films of the period as is seen in practically every crime film. I’ve seen As Tears Go By on Blu-ray and on laserdisc and specifically remember how prevalent the blue was in the opening and in the restaurant scenes. It seems they timed it again to go more naturalistic.

Some recent HK restorations, I assume from the camera negatives, look beautiful but are missing the night-time filters on day-for-night location scenes. So scenes that previously on video looked at least a bit dark now take place in broad daylight. Key examples being Hand of Death (Eureka) and Spiritual Kung Fu (88 Films).

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whaleallright
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#509 Post by whaleallright » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:24 pm

I've noticed that even for some films in the early 2010s that were restored digitally and then outputted to 35mm (a print of The Searchers was one example; luckily it was an early print and after being alerted to the problem, Warners was able to fix the next set). It's as though once the restoration process is moved over to digital and a different team takes over, they sometimes neglect to note the most basic things that someone making a contact print would remember to do, like apply the day-for-night filter.

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Amazing Goose
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#510 Post by Amazing Goose » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:20 pm

I've been trying to tell myself that these changes aren't worth getting upset over, in part because there are worse things in life than a movie having different colors than the way I first saw it, and also because I sold my blu-ray of Chungking Express when the set was "announced" in the New Year's clue.

But these new images of the color on CE are unfortunate, because when placed next to the Criterion version, it looks like a before/after example of how to "properly" color grade a shot. Except that part of what makes the film so memorable and noteworthy is that raw look of this unique location/world. Earlier this year I saw an interview with Matthew Libatique (Darren Aronofsky's frequent cinematographer) talking about seeing Chungking Express and realizing that he never needed to worry about correction light color temperatures, because the film made that a part of its look.

This new color grade cleans up and polishes a film whose power comes from the rough and raw visual style, and while I've been thinking that anyone new to these films won't notice the difference, I'm starting to think that the film's impact may be lessened because of this (which doesn't bode well for me seeing many of the others in the set for the first time.)

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whaleallright
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#511 Post by whaleallright » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:52 pm

I think someone mentioned this already upthread but another reason to regret these changes is because the outlandish-seeming colors in Wong's early films were of a piece with, or at least an extension of, the intense use of bold colors in HK cinema of the '80s and '90s. Think of Patrick Tam's early work, a major influence on Wong... or of Tsui Hark's intense passion for gels, itself a revival/exaggeration of a Shaw Bros. practice from the '60s and '70s. And HK cinematographers seemed to be more accepting of, and more willing to make expressive use of, over- and underexposure, not to mention wild color (im)balancing, than their US counterparts.

And this wasn't an issue of compromised presentation on home video. One of the things I was struck by when watching lots of HK films—on original 35mm prints—in midnight screenings in the '90s was how bold the colors were, in ways that a Hollywood studio would reject as garish or crude. It was one of the many striking things about HK cinema which at first took some getting used to, and later I came to love. This new version of As Tears Go By looks more "normal" in a way that comes close to severing its links to this visual approach.

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feihong
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#512 Post by feihong » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:34 am

The new color gradings on the restorations kind of "Fincher-ize" the looks of the films to me––they boost the shadow tones considerably and reign in the color effects, so that, in true Fincher style, every shot in the movie has roughly the same tonal values and range of exposure. Of course, none of the films were shot with the intent that this be the case, and one of the things that makes the scenes in these early Wong movies so distinct is the varied colors and exposures and lighting. Moving from the underlit hotel room at the end of the first segment of Chungking Express to the brighter, more washed-out rainy outdoor field where Takeshi Kaneshiro is running laps is such a shocking transition. But if the shots get too regularized in the restoration, and effect of the transitions like that one will be really diminished. The Andrew Lau–lensed segment from Chungking Express looks to be one that could really suffer because of this––a lot of Lau's shots are slightly underexposed. That one of Brigitte Lin in the alleyway, where her head lolls backwards is the one that seems most diminished. You can barely see what happens in that shot with the new color grade.

And I think the points whaleallright and Amazing Goose make are both really key to this whole thing. The new set isn't offering the original films, which were products of their time even as they were distinct and remarkable films––instead they're offering something Wong claims is a new experience. But what's going to happen is that this new experience will replace and devalue the historical context of the films. Without being allowed to be "of their time," these films will look very strange, indeed. They'll have a modern look that is every so often disrupted entirely by dated effects. The clothing, the style, the subjects of the films will remain in the 90s; the presentation––the colors, the contrast, the cutting and the visual reformatting, and Wong's disingenuous voice in all of this will insist that it's new, modern; a re-imagining.

Rupert Pupkin
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#513 Post by Rupert Pupkin » Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:25 am

the blu-ray StudioCanal of "My Blueberry Nights" seems okay to me. Is there some better transfer ?

I was wondering if you have more info about what could have been a third part (a "future" - hypothetical part of "In The Mood For Love"). I was reading an interview by WKW in French magazine Positif (2007) when "My Blueberry Nights" came out. He explained that some music from "In The Mood For Love 2001" is used in "My Blueberry Nights". "In The Mood For Love 2001" has been shown in 2001 in France as a short movie; it would have been originally intended to be a third part of the movie, which would take place in the "future" in a snack bar, like in "My Blueberry Nights". Apparently it goes beyond the script since in the interview WKW is speaking about some scenes in the future - a kind of alternate future with Maggie Cheung in the snack bar and that "My Blueberry Nights" was developed from this "missing third part" and that Norah Jones character is a kind of "future" alter ago of Maggie Cheung.
Did someone ever seen some video snippets or photos of this third part which WKW called it "In The Mood For Love 2001" - apparently he would have shown this as a short movie in France in 2001.

Rupert Pupkin
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#514 Post by Rupert Pupkin » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:27 pm

in "As Tears Go By", beside the cover (they keep the chorus in English) of "Take My Breathe Away" from Top Gun, WKW used at the night-club at the beginning a backing-track/instrumental of Bryan Ferry's "Slave To Love".
I'm really intrigued by this instrumental because as far as I can tell, no backing track have been release officially and David Gilmour plays guitar on "Slave To Love".
Has an OST on CD been released ? Do you know more about this instrumental ? (cover-band; in that case, it's very Gilmourish)
so far, WKW used but even edited the original musical : for instance Frank Zappa's "Chunga's Revenge" has been drastically edited to make it more jazzy than the original track.

I was very happy to rewatch "As Tears Go By". The phone-booth scene kiss is brilliant. Which makes me wonder : since WKW and for instance the other kiss scenes, like in "My Blueberry Nights" is there another cineast which is so good to capture such kiss scenes like Alfred Hitchcock did from "Notorious", "Vertigo" to "North by Northwest" ?
Last edited by Rupert Pupkin on Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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feihong
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#515 Post by feihong » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:24 am

I think there are a lot of good kissing scenes in film besides Wong's and Hitchcock's. But it is uncommon for those scenes to come across in swooningly romantic fashion in Chinese-language cinema. I do think that in Chinese-language films Wong is somewhat unique in terms of the way he fetishizes the kissing scene––though Patrick Tam often does the same thing (sometimes, as in Final Victory, with a script from Wong), and I think that the more you look at early Patrick Tam, the more elements you see that Wong takes and fetishizes for his own style. Early Zhang Yimou movies also feature very passionate kissing scenes, as does Lou Ye's Suzhou River, but the context for the kiss is often mediated in a way that intercedes in the fetishization. For instance, the kissing characters in early Zhang films are often adulterers, and it's fairly easily understood that they will pay for their passions later in the film. In Suzhou River, there are layers upon layers of deception in the storytelling, making these scenes resolutely subjective and always a little suspicious. Taiwanese and South Korean films often portray more frank sensual and sexual situations, but they have a similarly intercessory gloom descending upon the scenes, indicating the distance between the people in the scene, the way in which their romantic pursuits provide them with no fulfillment, no satisfaction. I think of the very romantic kiss in Memento Mori, interrupted when one girl bows to social pressure and ultimately pushes the other one away and refutes her passion, or the scene in Yi Yi where Ah-Di gets in bed with his ex clearly expecting intimacy but he ends up watching TV and grousing about his life decisions instead, while his ex turns away to sleep. Or the Hong Sang-Soo movies, where no two people ever seem to enjoy a romantic liaison on anything approaching equivalent terms.

There are a lot of less-than-convincing kisses in Hong Kong cinema––Brigitte Lin used to murder these scenes, not just refusing to open her mouth, but twisting towards the camera to show the audience very clearly that she wasn't participating. I always thought of Leslie Cheung as the hero of Hong Kong movie kissing scenes––no matter social taboo or lack of personal investment, he was a total professional, acting passion in stereo. If he seemed to be going over-the-top sometimes, I think that speaks to the reserve with which most Hong Kong actresses approached those scenes (largely, as I understand it, for reasons of social taboo), and Cheung's ultimate professionalism in attempting to compensate for any lack of return by providing the scene with simply all of the passion expected from both parties. I've also always had a soft spot for Cherie Chung in these kind of scenes––she was an actress who was very, very good at visually conveying the effects of her characters' feelings, so that you could look at her in a film and understand the character had fallen in love, etc. She doesn't have a ton of outright kissing scenes on film (more often this resolved into flirtatious banter), but there are some films where she and Chow Yun-Fat especially deliver very romantic kissing scenes. But on the whole Wong and Tam are, I think fairly unique in making those kisses the entire subject for a scene, per se, and dwelling upon the physical choreography of the moment.

For my money, though, no kiss in Chinese cinema is greeted with more tense anticipation than when Moon Lee bends forward to kiss her vampire grandfather on the lips in Mr. Vampire, drawing out his essence so he can go back to the grave. She acts as if she wishes she could detach her whole moth from her face so it could happen remotely, squinting her eyes like it's the most painful thing she could be expected to do. It does look like sucking in the breath of a reanimated corpse would be the most painful thing one might ever have to do. Best kissing scene ever. That is the gold standard for me.

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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#516 Post by Rupert Pupkin » Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:08 am

I was thinking about the "choreography" WKW use for these memorable kiss scenes (Notorious, Vertigo (which was recently revisited by Paul Shrader in "First Reformed" and years before by Brian De Palma as a clin d'œil in "Body Double") or North By Northwest (which follows the same "choreography" than on "Notorious"); and as trying to remember the last time that I saw something as strong and memorable as the kiss in the end of "My Blueberry Nights" and did not find some examples coming to my mind.

Sorry if this has been "spotted" before but regarding the scope ratio of "Fallen Angels" (with important cropping up and below the screen in comparison to the US Kino Blu-Ray).
Yesterday I have rewatched Criterion Blu-Ray "Chungking Express". To me the transfer as it was is superb.
On the Blu-Ray Criterion of Chungking Express there is a "featurette" with WKW and Christopher Doyle : they are showing several excerpts for "Fallen Angels" (which is announced as an "upcoming movie") : Christopher Doyle is talking about the extreme-wide angle focales of the snack scene with Michelle Reis. There are several excerpts of "Fallen Angels" and all are in scope (the feature is in bad video quality) but it looks like the scope ratio was planned from the beginning.
Which makes me wonder : was "Fallen Angels" shown in scope during its theatrical releases ?

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#517 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:23 am

Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:25 am
Did someone ever seen some video snippets or photos of this third part which WKW called it "In The Mood For Love 2001" - apparently he would have shown this as a short movie in France in 2001.
AFAIK this was only shown once in 2001, when Wong did a masterclass at Cannes. depp91's excellent website (mentioned at length a few pages back) has a page on it with what is apparently the only publicly-available visual material. It also has an account of its origins and a convincing theory about why Wong hasn't given it any public screening outside of that single masterclass (essentially, that Wong regards it as a mistake and only showed it as an example of how much gets set aside as a result of his improvisatory methods).
Rupert Pupkin wrote:On the Blu-Ray Criterion of Chungking Express there is a "featurette" with WKW and Christopher Doyle : they are showing several excerpts for "Fallen Angels" (which is announced as an "upcoming movie") : Christopher Doyle is talking about the extreme-wide angle focales of the snack scene with Michelle Reis. There are several excerpts of "Fallen Angels" and all are in scope (the feature is in bad video quality) but it looks like the scope ratio was planned from the beginning.
Which makes me wonder : was "Fallen Angels" shown in scope during its theatrical releases ?
Way back in the thread there are some contemporaneous sources stating that Wong originally had the notion of projecting the film anamorphically at 2.39:1, but changed his mind after testing it out. I haven't seen the footage you mention (or if I have I don't remember it), but perhaps it dates from the period when the idea was still under active consideration.
Last edited by The Fanciful Norwegian on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rupert Pupkin
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#518 Post by Rupert Pupkin » Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:31 am

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:23 am
Rupert Pupkin wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:25 am
Did someone ever seen some video snippets or photos of this third part which WKW called it "In The Mood For Love 2001" - apparently he would have shown this as a short movie in France in 2001.
AFAIK this was only shown once in 2001, when Wong did a masterclass at Cannes. depp91's excellent website (mentioned at length a few pages back) has a page on it with what is apparently the only publicly-available visual material. It also has an account of its origins and a convincing theory about why Wong hasn't given it any public screening outside of that single masterclass (essentially, that Wong regards it as a mistake and only showed it as an example of how much gets set aside as a result of his improvisatory methods).
thanks. Too bad it was only shown in 2001. The three film strips from In The Mood For Love 2001 is priceless (I was able to grab it in high-res thank to the internet wayback archive); this look really familiar to My Blueberry Nights indeed. I wonder why for a tremendous box set like Wong Kar Wai world, this third part which has been edited as a short movie is not part of the bonus.

cowboydan
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#519 Post by cowboydan » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:52 am

Days of Being Wild

No speed up. No audio issues detected. No difference in cut detected. The end credits are unchanged (the new version has the same end credits as the old one!)

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(Left) Megastar BD vs. (Right) Restoration

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Finch
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#520 Post by Finch » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:45 am

I can't for the life of me understand how someone can remove a green tint from one film and add it to another or two.

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TheKieslowskiHaze
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#521 Post by TheKieslowskiHaze » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:07 am

Finch wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:45 am
I can't for the life of me understand how someone can remove a green tint from one film and add it to another or two.
There's even this inconsistency within a single film. In As Tears Go By, most shots on the restoration have a reduced tint, but I see a few in which tint was added.

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Drucker
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#522 Post by Drucker » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:09 am

In my non-expert opinion, this shit sucks.

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Boosmahn
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#523 Post by Boosmahn » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:17 am

Those look positively awful.

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Big Ben
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Re: World of Wong Kar Wai

#524 Post by Big Ben » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:31 am

The most depressing thing about this for me is that I was a child when many of these films came out originally and this set is the first chance I've ever had to see many of these films collected in one convenient package. A result of WKW's "improvements" is that it is likely that I'll never see a similar package again with all the films as they were originally presented and that sucks.


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