Eclipse Series 3: Late Ozu

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fred · #76 Post by **fred** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:44 am

Well, I guess ignorance is bliss. Have any of you seen these (or any other Japanese films from the same time period) on film? Or even on Japanese dvds? Are you familiar with the difference between Japanese and American color film stocks? The varying ways in which they represent colors? It's as substantial as the the difference between Technicolor and Eastmancolor.

I bet the lot of you are tickled pink with your Vertigo dvds as well.

As for this:

arsonfilms wrote:Besides, Criterion isn't doing any work on the Eclipse titles, they're simply releasing transfers licensed from elsewhere. If an Eclipse title doesn't look snot green, odds are pretty good that someone else thought it looked off too and corrected it before Criterion even got a hold of it.

To the best of my understanding this is totally false. What they aren't doing is digital restoration or booklets or commentary or other supplements. As far as I understand they're still supervising their own transfers.

Donald Brown · #77 Post by **Donald Brown** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:08 am

Don't be such a posturing, condescending prick. Japanese film stock does not tend toward the extreme greens some are suggesting, though it tends to not be as warm as Kodak. The hues seen in Late Ozu and in Vengeance is Mine are more than plausibly representative of the original negatives. Criterion's Good Morning and Floating Weeds, on the other hand, are overly blue and hideous.

fred · #78 Post by **fred** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:50 am

Donald Brown wrote:Don't be such a posturing, condescending prick. Japanese film stock does not tend toward the extreme greens some are suggesting, though it tends to not be as warm as Kodak. The hues seen in Late Ozu and in Vengeance is Mine are more than plausibly representative of the original negatives. Criterion's Good Morning and Floating Weeds, on the other hand, are overly blue and hideous.

Good Morning and Floating Weeds are egregious--I'm glad you can see that--but to my eye those frames from Equinox Flower are every bit as wrong. The other two in the set look a bit better, so if that's good enough for you, huzzah. It's a more important issue for me (one I admittedly think others are frequently inadequately sensitive to). But look at the 3-way comparison of End of Summer in the DVD Beaver review. Do you really think the Toho capture tends to the "extreme green"? And do you really think Criterion's looks better?

(I'm not sure why you're dragging Vengeance is Mine into this: in the intervening 20 years among other things the chemistry changed. Besides which I haven't seen the Criterion disc of this film so can't comment on it.)

As for the name calling, you're a little snotty yourself:

Yeah, everyone knows people in Asian films are supposed to look snot green rather than hued like humans.

FilmFanSea · #79 Post by **FilmFanSea** » Sun May 27, 2007 3:01 am

I'm with you, Donald (and also agree about the fucked up color on Good Morning and Floating Weeds). This debate gets reignited whenever Criterion releases a Japanese color film on DVD. However, I've yet to read a plausible hypothesis from the critics about why Criterion keeps choosing such "appalling" colors. Is it because

1. Criterion sees an admission of error to be a sign of weakness. They know they're wrong, but don't want to draw attention to it by admitting their mistakes or by correcting the color timing of subsequent releases.

2. Lee Kline is a dumbass who's never even heard of Agfacolor, has NEVER seen a color Japanese film from the 1950s and 1960s projected, and has no bloody clue that certain members of this forum have consistently blasted his Ozu color choices since at least 1997.

3. In order to qualify for a hefty tax break, Criterion only hires the colorblind.

4. Criterion has little problem reproducing the skewed color choices of Wong Kar Wai, Jean-Pierre Melville, and Krzysztof Kieslowski, but draws the line at Yasujiro Ozu (anti-Japanese sentiment?).

5. Since there is no "gold standard" where Ozu's color films are concerned (dead director & DP; the fading of color film with time; the projected color prints these DVDs are being compared to--by memory--can be mistimed just as readily by the assumption that Ozu was content to produce green skin tones), reasonable people can disagree about how these films looked when they were first projected, and can make divergent but reasonable choices about the way they should appear on DVD.

fred · #80 Post by **fred** » Sun May 27, 2007 3:24 am

FilmFanSea wrote:However, I've yet to read a plausible hypothesis from the critics about why Criterion keeps choosing such "appalling" colors.

Well, I've never been one to give them *too* much credit for their supposedly exacting devotion to getting these things right. Pleasing their market is frequently good enough for them. I think their digital "restoration" schemes can err on the side of scrubbing the films *too* clean and obviously I think they've been getting Ozu's colors wrong from the start. I'm sure many people here will disagree with me (probably quite strongly on the first point). I think simple fallibility is enough of an explanation.

FilmFanSea wrote:2. Lee Kline is a dumbass who's never even heard of Agfacolor, has NEVER seen a color Japanese film from the 1950s and 1960s projected, and has no bloody clue that certain members of this forum have consistently blasted his Ozu color choices since at least 1997.

At the risk of being called posturing and condescending again, I think we're talking about Fujicolor, rather than Agfacolor. As for whether he knows or cares that people see this as a problem, your guess is as good as mine. (Indeed I asked if it had been brought to their attention in my original post on the subject.)

FilmFanSea wrote:4. Criterion has little problem reproducing the skewed color choices of Wong Kar Wai, Jean-Pierre Melville, and Krzysztof Kieslowski, but draws the line at Yasujiro Ozu (anti-Japanese sentiment?).

Simple case of greater familiarity with the films on film in the case of Wong and Kieslowski, I would guess. Dumb luck with Melville?

Edit: But I also haven't looked at any of these discs, so can't comment on them.

FilmFanSea wrote:reasonable people can disagree about how these films looked when they were first projected, and can make divergent but reasonable choices about the way they should appear on DVD.

Sure, but some of them are wrong.

MichaelB · #81 Post by **MichaelB** » Sun May 27, 2007 3:36 am

FilmFanSea wrote:4. Criterion has little problem reproducing the skewed color choices of Wong Kar Wai, Jean-Pierre Melville, and Krzysztof Kieslowski, but draws the line at Yasujiro Ozu (anti-Japanese sentiment?).

If I remember rightly, Criterion's first colour Melville, Le Cercle rouge was less than a triumph - and I also remember at least one person instinctively assuming that the BFI release's accurately desaturated colours were faulty while the Criterion's overly bright "corrected" ones were the real deal, purely because they couldn't conceive of Criterion getting it so badly wrong.

fred · #82 Post by **fred** » Sun May 27, 2007 3:59 am

davidhare wrote:But your tone is not particularly helpful, Fred.

I'll admit my post at the top of the page was perhaps a little intemperate--I'll blame the disgusting weather here in New York--but I don't think I was being all that inflammatory. I just got a bit hot and bothered by the insistence, three posts in a row, in the face of seemingly glaring visual evidence, that everything was hunky-dory.

My apologies if feathers were ruffled.

GringoTex · #83 Post by **GringoTex** » Sun May 27, 2007 7:02 am

fred wrote:Well, I guess ignorance is bliss. Have any of you seen these (or any other Japanese films from the same time period) on film? Or even on Japanese dvds? Are you familiar with the difference between Japanese and American color film stocks? The varying ways in which they represent colors? It's as substantial as the the difference between Technicolor and Eastmancolor.

Maybe you can point us to some weblinks that discuss the greenish, desaturated nature of late 1950s Fujifilm stock.

#84 Post by **domino harvey** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:45 am

MichaelB wrote:
FilmFanSea wrote:4. Criterion has little problem reproducing the skewed color choices of Wong Kar Wai, Jean-Pierre Melville, and Krzysztof Kieslowski, but draws the line at Yasujiro Ozu (anti-Japanese sentiment?).
If I remember rightly, Criterion's first colour Melville, Le Cercle rouge was less than a triumph - and I also remember at least one person instinctively assuming that the BFI release's accurately desaturated colours were faulty while the Criterion's overly bright "corrected" ones were the real deal, purely because they couldn't conceive of Criterion getting it so badly wrong.

Of course there's considerable evidence that Melville's blue color scheme is properly represented in the BFI due to many of his late-period films having the same scheme. Do Ozu's limited color films have any such support for the Coke bottle tint? I'm not being a wise guy, I genuinely don't know.

carax09 · #85 Post by **carax09** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:53 am

In comparing the color issues between Le Cercle Rouge and Equinox Flower (for instance), isn't it a bit of apples and oranges? With Melville you have film elements that are well preserved and more well documented in terms of intentional shot-by-shot color scheme/intentions. On the other hand, with the Ozu you have a film held by a studio not exactly known for it's stringent film preservation (as GringoTex alluded to), as well as a case where intentions are not as well known.

Isn't it safe to say that if Fujifilm/Agfafilms of a particular vintage tend toward the green, and we see these greens in non-color corrected prints and transfers, it has nothing to do with the original intentions of the filmmaker? It's almost as if an aesthetic has grown up around a mistake!

It's obviously hard to tell from screen caps, but perhaps Criterion's best guess color choices were applied to these films globally, in which case would it not be possible to mess around with hue/saturation on your particular set-up if you find the colors "off"?

sevenarts · #86 Post by **sevenarts** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:13 am

Huh. Well, on the plus side, the two films that look the worst are the two that I already have in fantastic editions from Tartan -- Tokyo Twilight and Equinox Flower. I wonder why Beaver didn't choose to compare those? Maybe because they so obviously show how shitty the Eclipses look.

Late Autumn looks good to me, though, and End of Summer looks pretty good as well -- certainly better than the AE edition. So this may be a good purchase anyway, especially for those who have the Tartan box but want good editions of the other films.

Also, I've emailed Kim Hendrickson now about the color issue on Japanese DVDs, should be interesting to see if they have anything to say on this.

ellipsis7 · #87 Post by **ellipsis7** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:16 am

And of course as mentioned previously Tartan leave out subtitles for the song and recitation in EQUINOX FLOWER, making the Eclipse edition of that film also more attractive..

Michael Kerpan · #88 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Sun May 27, 2007 12:08 pm

I agree with David on the French Mizoguchi DVDs -- it is hard to believe that the same set can contain such an exquisitely lovely job as the "Yang Kwei Fei" disc and such a putrid effort as the "Taira Clan" one.

I suspect that some of the original materials Shochiku has are degraded in a way that precludes perfect restoration (with the budget that has been available) -- so one has to pick between less than perfect choices. All I can say is that the original Shochiku DVD of "Equinox Flower", when taken as a whole, is simply gorgeous (despite occasional hints of a greenish tinge) -- while Criterion's effort (based on the examples I've seen) strikes me as garish in a way that is almost certainly not genuinely Ozu-like.

I think Criterion knows its market well -- and has decided that pinkish (to reddish) complexions on Japanese (and the resulting shift of the whole color palette) is more likely preferable to most of its prospective customers than the alternative (probably more authentic) color balance of the Asian DVDs.

tryavna · #89 Post by **tryavna** » Sun May 27, 2007 12:10 pm

FilmFanSea wrote:1. Like the Bush Administration, Criterion sees an admission of error to be a sign of weakness. They know they're wrong, but don't want to draw attention to it by admitting their mistakes or by correcting the color timing of subsequent releases.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Criterion has repeatedly refused to acknowledge their mistake regarding Gertrud's aspect ratio. They're not infallible. (And as others have pointed out, they're well-known for fiddling with the color-schemes of their Melville releases.)

I'll probably still buy this set. It's a great deal. But the colors for Equinox Flower certainly look off, especially the overly reddish skin-tones. It looks a bit like Warner's recent re-release of Rio Bravo.

che-etienne · #90 Post by **che-etienne** » Sun May 27, 2007 12:54 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:I agree with David on the French Mizoguchi DVDs -- it is hard to believe that the same set can contain such an exquisitely lovely job as the "Yang Kwei Fei" disc and such a putrid effort as the "Taira Clan" one.

I suspect that some of the original materials Shochiku has are degraded in a way that precludes perfect restoration (with the budget that has been available) -- so one has to pick between less than perfect choices. All I can say is that the original Shochiku DVD of "Equinox Flower", when taken as a whole, is simply gorgeous (despite occasional hints of a greenish tinge) -- while Criterion's effort (based on the examples I've seen) strikes me as garish in a way that is almost certainly not genuinely Ozu-like.

I think Criterion knows its market well -- and has decided that pinkish (to reddish) complexions on Japanese (and the resulting shift of the whole color palette) is more likely preferable to most of its prospective customers than the alternative (probably more authentic) color balance of the Asian DVDs.

I recently saw a Janus print of "Good Morning". It was quite beautiful and the colors were much closer to the garish poppy look of this "Equinox Flower" DVD than the greenish Panorama transfer. I agree that there is too much red here, but the claim that there should be more green sounds equally fallacious. I can't say anything for the Shochiku DVD, and obviously the color schemes of the two films would not be exactly the same. Still, I think those who have issues with this set are exaggerating the errors. These DVDs are a vast improvement on what we've been able to get in the past, and the transfers are quite good all things considered.

ED: the Shochiku DVD of "Good Morning" is definitely greener than the print I saw. So this should give us an idea of Shochiku's own leanings in DVD image manipulation.

Michael Kerpan · #91 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:02 pm

You cannot use the Janus prints as a reference source for Criterion DVDs -- as these probably have a common heritage --- and involve the same (or very similar) decisions as to color balancing.

Ozu avoided making color films until he found a film stock that avoided the garish look (to him) of Hollywood's color films. Unfortunately, that film stock may not have aged well -- but making the films look "bright" in a fashion Ozu disliked is a questionable artistic decision (however pleasing it looks to American viewers).

ellipsis7 · #92 Post by **ellipsis7** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:36 pm

Problem is probably also with evolving film stocks and emulsion, and COLOUR LOCALISATION, as explained by Bruce Block in his book & seminars...

If you try to reproduce a full range of saturated colours in a scene -Yellow, Green, Red, Cyan, Blue, Magenta - you immediately hit a problem... Yellow the brightest colour exposes at f/22, but Blue and Magenta, the darkest need a much broader exposure at f/2.0, with Reds and Greens in between... Of course when filming and later grading you can't marry the two exposures in the same frame, so either the art department has to darken or desaturate the yellows, brighten or desaturate the reds on set, to allow them to optimally reproduce on exposure setting you fix on, or alternatively you suffer blindness or unsatisfactory reproduction of certain colours because of that setting fixed during filming and grading... You cannot reproduce all pure colours perfectly at the same time...

In grading Ozu films, it could be that is nigh on impossible to reproduce the exact grading he envisaged for all colours at the same time, or that he was grading to unfaithful skin tones, of an olive or green shade...

Michael Kerpan · #93 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:02 pm

ellipsis7 · #94 Post by **ellipsis7** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:12 pm

Interesting palette there, Michael, pretty desaturated colours and nothing very bright... There's a consistency to the frame grabs you've posted that could suggest this is close to Ozu's intentions...

Michael Kerpan · #95 Post by **Michael Kerpan** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:14 pm

ellipsis7 wrote:Interesting palette there, Michael, pretty desaturated colours and nothing very bright... There's a consistency to the frame grabs you've posted that could suggest this is close to Ozu's intentions...

At least on my monitor -- very little sign of greenish tinge. I picked these semi-randomly -- so maybe I missed some local patches of tinge. ;~}

I consider the Shochiku DVD of EF one of the most gorgeous-looking DVDs (of color films) I own.

ellipsis7 · #96 Post by **ellipsis7** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:17 pm

Notice on no 11 that to get a bright table lamp at that exposure, he has had to pump in brightness from the bulb and desaturate the lampshade red colour as well as adding white, so it registers as pink... If he'd had a fully saturated red it wouldn't have stood out at this exposure...

King of Kong · #97 Post by **King of Kong** » Sun May 27, 2007 2:47 pm

I hope Gary and the crew get around to doing some comparisons with the Tartan Ozus. As things stand, it seems the thing to do would be to buy both the Eclipse Ozu set and the Tartan Ozu #3 box.

TheRanchHand · #98 Post by **TheRanchHand** » Sun May 27, 2007 3:20 pm

Criterion sees an admission of error to be a sign of weakness. They know they're wrong, but don't want to draw attention to it by admitting their mistakes or by correcting the color timing of subsequent releases.

I am not a color expert as many here seem to be, but I for one will be buying the set. The image is not annoying me (at least going by the frame grabs) and I have yet to own these films. I will look into the Tartan ones as well to see what they are offering. This is the only Eclipse set I have been willing to invest in.

jt · #99 Post by jt » Tue May 29, 2007 2:54 am

King of Kong wrote:I hope Gary and the crew get around to doing some comparisons with the Tartan Ozus. As things stand, it seems the thing to do would be to buy both the Eclipse Ozu set and the Tartan Ozu #3 box.

The Tartan set 3 is well worth having, Good Morning is light years ahead of the CC and Tokyo Twilight and Equinox Flower both look nicer than the Eclipses (Although I agree I would like to see a beaver comparison to confirm. I don't really understand why Gary has left these out?).
All that being said, at the price you can pick this set up for online, I'll be getting it for the three films I don't already have. Any way you look at it, it's still a bit of a bargain.

ellipsis7 · #100 Post by **ellipsis7** » Tue May 29, 2007 3:11 am

TOKYO TWILIGHT on the Tartan is quite dark, although I too would like to see a direct comparison with the Eclipse version... Agree that Tartan GOOD MORNING is light years ahead of the CC version, while I've already noted the one fatal flaw in the Tartan EQUINOX FLOWER...