The Catherine Deneuve List

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Never Cursed
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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#26 Post by Never Cursed » Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:41 am

Better movies preceded it and will almost certainly follow, but The Hunger is the first great surprise of my scattershot viewings for this list, a stylish rejiggering of vampire legends into a sort of horrific urban fairy tale/psychodrama. Deneuve, in probably the most effective use of her "ice queen" mode I've seen yet, plays the matriarch of a small vampiric coven preying on social stragglers in early '80s New York. All of them are gifted with eternal life, but only Deneuve remains eternally young, with the rest cursed to age and decay forever, conscious but immobile. (Unable and unwilling to kill her life partners, Deneuve keeps them in her lavish apartment's attic in a grim parody of the baggage normal people retain of their past loves). When her current partner David Bowie(!) begins to age (a sign of his impending functional death), he seeks out the assistance of gerontologist Susan Sarandon, and the film gradually reveals itself to not be so interested in the mechanics of its vampirism so much as in the irrationality of the human drive to achieve immortality in light of the agony (physical, emotional, philosophical) it would bring. Those familiar with some past posts I've made may remember that this is a sort of sore point of mine, so maybe I'm a little biased towards a film that treats such subject matter with such an elegant respect for the pain that can come out of wrestling with one's mortality or mortality in general, but I was really impressed with how the film used even its most brutal moments to sell this weight.
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The best scene in the film, and one of the saddest I've seen in recent memory, is the second murder scene, which works in exactly this fashion. After being rebuffed by Sarandon, who thinks that the prematurely-aged Bowie is just a crank, he returns to the apartment to find the teenaged girl that he and Deneuve have been giving music lessons (and who he now realizes Deneuve has been grooming to be his eventual vampiric replacement). The girl doesn't recognize him, so he introduces himself as a family friend and asks her to play a song that he and Deneuve taught her. Partly out of jealousy of the girl's importance to Deneuve and partly out of his own desperate desire to live, Bowie kills her as she plays and drinks her blood, but to no avail; he "dies" shortly thereafter. This seems an almost objectively unconscionably callous action to take, contemptible both because it's a murder of a child and, on a more conceptual level, because it's a usurpation of the way age dynamics are supposed to work (in that the old are supposed to protect the young, not destroy them for the benefit of the old). I know at least a couple critics at the time reacted to this scene with revulsion, but to me it perfectly encapsulates the film's philosophy when it comes to seeking immortality: it's a drive that by its very nature alienates one from fragile human existence and makes one capable of brutality. This is of course the essence/dichotomy that motivates most vampires in fiction, but in other stories, they're usually presented as inhuman villains or else pubescent goth self-parodies (as in the Twilights et al); we're let into their verisimilitudinous psychology here in a way that rarely happens for works about fantastic beings, in a way that's somber and melancholic but still recognizable.
There are a few too many other parts of the film that slip into a greater and unfortunate silliness, so I can't go as far as I'd like to and call this a masterful tone exercise or anything. But the core of it hit me hard, and the slick presentation of the film's good and bad ideas alike (a lot of the apartment-set stuff certainly resembles a hyperbolic visual first draft of the formalist and formality-concerned ideas that the cinematographer would later use in his work on the superior HBO movie Conspiracy) makes it merit a blind watch.

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Never Cursed
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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#27 Post by Never Cursed » Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:43 am

And from the polar opposite of the spectrum, François Ozon's 8 Women is one of the worst films I've seen in a long time. One would expect a film with such a hokey and well-trodden premise as this (an Agatha Christie pastiche with female speaking roles only) to have some kind of ironic or subversive or cheeky edge motivating its histrionics, but by its end it is clear that Ozon is only interested in using his stars and the film's tentative genre-bending as vehicles to deliver empty catty barbs and tragically quaint "shocking" content (it's both risible and a little sickening how many of the film's twists are "character x is a lesbian" and how much weight the film and its characters put upon this information). Every performer except Emmanuelle Béart embarrasses themselves several times over through overacting, but I was particularly taken with how well the common and agonizing misapplication of Deneuve's secretive ice queen mode (with no real reason given for why she's behaving this way, of course) meshed with the film's unbearably bitchy wavelength. It almost functions as a textbook example of the way to misuse Deneuve's talents and presence.

The worst of Ozon's directorial mistakes here, however, are the eight musical numbers (one for each principal to awkwardly half-shimmy through). Sure, they're vestigial and terribly written, but worse than that is how little effort Ozon puts into staging and filming the numbers. All of them are presented as though they were on a literal stage, sung with performer(s) standing or sitting mostly immobile, lightly dancing to the song, captured in static shots mashed together by quick edits. In other words, these numbers are formally indistinguishable from dozens of other terrible musical segments taken from the shitty Hollywood musicals of the past two decades. They're much smaller-scale and less frenetic, but the basics of that style are still there. A film with this much effort put into production design and costumes and vibrant color timing should not primarily remind the viewer of fucking Mamma Mia! or Vice in the collective cluelessness of its creators.

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domino harvey
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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#28 Post by domino harvey » Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:36 am

Agreed, Beart and the costuming/set design are the only saving graces here. Ozon is basically the French Alan Parker, all over the place from movie to movie with no real through line and no indication til you’re in the thick of it as to whether you’ve signed up for a good one… though this movie specifically calls to mind more the regrettable television empire of Ryan Murphy than anything

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Never Cursed
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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#29 Post by Never Cursed » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:02 am

God, at least Glee sometimes had good song choices and actual choreography (though at least the Ozon is not 97 hours long, not that the runtime stopped me from suffering through either one)

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#30 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:11 am

So this project has like 2-3 weeks left and I haven't revisited or watched anything new for it (which is basically my plan going forward for the stars projects barring sudden enthusiasm, following the self-induced trainwreck of compulsively completing Cary Grant's filmography with terrible returns), but I'd like to know if anyone has any rare recs for Deneuve not already discussed. So far only knives' Don’t Touch the White Woman is on my list (since her role doesn't seem to register in his other recommended film). I've been taking a break from watching movies for the most part, but if anyone is passionate about any hidden gem and hasn't spoken up, I'll try to get in it before submissions.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#31 Post by knives » Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:13 am

She has a hilarious role in the great The Brand New Testamentand if Potiche isn’t on your radar it should be. A candycane union film and probably a more palatable Demy ode than 8 Women, which I personally adore.
Last edited by knives on Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#32 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:58 am

Thanks knives, neither was on my radar and the minuteman library system has both- will give them a watch as soon as they arrive

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#33 Post by knives » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:46 pm

No worries. I guess I’m the adventurous one for once as my miseries definitely suggest there isn’t too many hidden gems unless they are very well hidden.

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domino harvey
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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#34 Post by domino harvey » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:48 pm

Not exactly what you asked for, but I can give "un-recommendations" to these lousy films which haven't been mentioned yet: Hustle, L'Argent des autres, La chamade, La chasse à l'homme, La vie de château, Le vice et la vertu, and Manon 70

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#35 Post by knives » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:57 pm

I’m not voting for it, but I enjoy Hustle as a light genre exercise. Vice and Virtue and La chamade are the pits though.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#36 Post by domino harvey » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:02 am

Two more avoidable duds:

Les vacances portugaises (Pierre Kast 1963)
Kast, the director so bad that he's left out of all modern discussion of the Young Turks of Cahiers du cinema because he (along with one of his stars/co-writers of this, Jacques Doniol-Valcroze) is so untalented behind the camera that they'd bring the mean average of the movement down if anyone actually saw their work, delivers another film in his series of friends of the director convening in a large house to exchange what I assume are supposed to be Bergman-esque dialogues but which resemble a child who's read about love trying to bluff his way through a convo on the topic in a kind of cinematic fakebook. If Kast gives us anything consistently in these early films, it is staggering amateurishness. As to the subject of this cinematic death march of a list, Deneuve's role here is to show us what seemingly one out of every three French films already tells us: there's nothing teenage girls love more than to throw themselves at uninterested and sloven middle-aged men.

the April Fools (Stuart Rosenberg 1969)
Rosenberg follows up Cool Hand Luke by combining the lamest aspects of I Love You Alice B Toklas with the worst aspects of the by this point completely irrelevant Hollywood Sex Comedy and then gives everything a visual gloss that kills anything approaching comedy. Not that there's much risk of laffs here no matter who was behind the camera though. Perhaps the only thing the characters in this film have in common with any actual human beings watching this movie is that neither believes Jack Lemmon and Catherine Deneuve have anything resembling chemistry or romantic potential. But because a dumb screenplay dictates it as so, we get a little over 24 hours in the life of a square who blows up his life to run away with the boss' wife. Credit where it's due: this movie is so throughly awful that I thought it would maintain a solid level of bad throughout, but then Harvey Korman's character pops up in the last twenty minutes and suddenly I'm dying for a return to what I previously thought was "bad" about this movie. Lemmon wisely pretended this movie never happened and won an Oscar a few years after this for playing a not dissimilar role in a very dissimilar movie (ie it's actually good), Save the Tiger.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#37 Post by knives » Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:44 pm

I’m not sure if I should be relieved or disappointed as the Lemmon was in my interested but not going to watch pile. What I did watch though was a mixed bad. Going to start off with the good though.

Wow, I Want to See is the diamond in the rough. Owing more than can be believed to Abbas Kiarostami Deneuve plays a version of herself driving around Lebanon and just discussing life and what is seen with a tour guide, who is also presumably famous in his home country. It’s a simple film with a familiar construct and obvious political moral, but sometimes that’s the richest way of going about things. The causal, almost incidental nature of the story and characters mixed in with the harsh realities of life around war is a great contrast, the film acknowledges itself as a paradox, which prevents it from seeming histrionic even at its most explicit. I very strongly enjoyed this film and will be glad to see it again if I ever do.

The Girl on the Train is my first Odile Barski script directed by someone other than Chabrol. Throw that I think I combined this with A Girl Cut in Two for years in my head and imagine my disappointment when this didn’t turn out to be like a Chabrol film.

False expectations aside this is tremendously improved on Changing Times with a more secure point of view and engaging central characters. I’ve met and been a million people like our central character especially with regards to her relationship with her mother, a quietly oppressive Deneuve doing a bit of a Harry Lime trick, all qualities born from a script which is good enough I’d be curious what someone with a harsher or more ironic view than Téchiné would offer. This is not to say that the direction is bad, but it works so hard on not having a point of view that it renders the film sleepy.

The film does have a few moments that succeed beyond a doubt though. The opening credits are haunting and there’s this great moment of bliss about a third of the way through as lovers roller skate. It leaves me cautiously optimistic on Téchiné at least with the right set of collaborators.

March or Die and L'homme qui voulait vivre sa vie were just so boringly mediocre with barely any Deneuve in them that they weren’t worth watching for this list.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#38 Post by senseabove » Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:53 am

Well, if this list is getting relatively low-engagement, I'm glad it happened if only for finally getting me to jump on the Desplechin bandwagon. I absolutely loved A Christmas Tale. I was not expecting a movie that starts out by treating a sprawling clusterfuck of family dynamics like the plot of a LeCarré spy thriller, location and relationships and names and grudges and sympathies and time periods all jumbled together. And once I got ahold of that pace, I was not expecting it to settle into confidently measured, gnarly, open-ended melodrama, tracing the familial knots in exquisite detail while leaving the strands unchased, traced just far back enough to find where they disappear into the knot in one direction and into wide open (personal) history in the other. I love how Desplechin balances half-functional, desperately practical judgement and over-invested obsession, whether it's actuarial statistics or the vagaries of bodies and minds in mysterious revolt, familial myths or personal grudges, what would have been if the one that got away hadn't got away or what could have been if someone would or did or did not suddenly recede. The cherry on top, my forever weakness in art, is how Desplechin uses an arch formality in ways that underline its artificiality to create real complexity: the en face monologues, the iris effect, the blatant looping that unsettlingly switches from diegetic to non-diegetic, the select scenes tacitly transported from elsewhere in the timeline even while title cards mark larger jumps in it...

All that said, on the subject at hand: Deneuve is great, but it's strange how little she's in the movie, actually. She's undoubtedly the symbolic center, the Prime Mover burning at the center of this universe, but I'd wager she has the fewest lines and least screen time of any of the adults—a strange, furiously calm performance in a movie that is otherwise anything but. In my ever-evolving equation of how to rank a list like this, this will rate highly as a movie and a performance, but I don't think it will overtake other, more prominent performances from Deneuve. I could see that evaluation changing on repeat viewings, though, which I expect would reveal just how purposeful that is, both in the script and in her performance.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#39 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:28 am

Nice appreciation, senseabove! I find it interesting you view Deneuve’s performance as “furiously calm” against the grain of the film’s tone, because I think she gives the most aggressive, invisibly furious performance in the movie- just in her own way (and at times precisely because her passive-aggressive nebulous shield of faux-apathy postures as so self-assured). Perhaps it’s because I know or have known so many people like her in my life and professional practice, but Deneuve nails the energy of the donor role of dysfunctional affection in family dynamics, in a manner that grants empathy along with that responsibility, yet so quietly we can’t access any fully formed truth. Desplechin knows that it’s futile, and would indeed be disingenuous, to spell out her psychology or complex relationship with Amalric- as neither of them understand on a conscious, translatable level what that relationship ‘is’- but for me that very final scene and shots tell all we need to know. Within the population of elderly characters in cinema, she may be the most ‘real’ emotional character I’ve seen personally- and Deneuve’s internalized chaos aptly bleeds into formulating the boiling temperaments we see from her kids! A lesser film would have made her loudly vitriolic, but this is so much deeper and more honest.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#40 Post by senseabove » Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:47 pm

That...sounds like you agree? Is there that much of a difference between "furiously calm" and "invisibly furious"? Or is your main point that you don't find her performance to be in contrast to the rest of the movie?

If that's the case, my impression probably owes a lot to the context of my viewing it for this list, and I do expect I'll appreciate the integrality of her blunt aloofness more on another go-round. The movie's very overwhelming, though—there is a lot going on, narratively, emotionally, formally, especially for the first hour, and I always struggle (as I said re:The Big Chill) to track relationships and names in ensemble casts like this, so a lot of my focus was on figuring out who the hell just got mentioned and what their relationship to everyone is or who knew what when and whether I need to care*. While the rest of it isn't quite Zulawski, Amalric and Consigny and Desplechin's formal tics flirt with that kind of overbearing, frenetic intensity. But Deneuve's blunt aloofness is exactly what drives everyone else just that crazy (so yes, absolutely "the donor role of dysfunctional affection"—and it makes the MTV Cribs tour painfully hilarious in retrospect, like the Lucille Bluth "I'm withholding" joke aimed at the viewer); just on first watch, that aloofness receded a bit in the shadow of all the other characters' focus-pulling histrionics and the narrative's demands on my attention, and it made it an odd experience to watch it "for Deneuve."

*For example, I didn't catch this time why the two kids know who Roseaimée is when they talk at the top of the basement stairs about the wolf, but not when Roseaimée's sitting in the front of them: was the former scene another minuscule, tacit timeline skip, or is it a narrative feint at how our conception of another person's personhood can be so flimsy, or is it the former in the narrative to demonstrate the latter in the viewer...or did I just miss something?

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#41 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:24 pm

It sounds like we agree (and to be clear, I loved your writeup and was only responding to the part that I seem to have misinterpreted). I read that as you being frustrated that she was calm in contrast to the surrounding energy- rather than furious in a calm way, which you’ve now clarified. I do think there’s a juxtaposition but one that’s less jarring within the context of how I understand family systems work and pretty organic to how they often present themselves, so when you mentioned her calmness as an oddity it sounded like you meant it was a bit ill-fitting for the milieu. Again, really enjoyed your thoughts (and yes, this is a film I only love more on repeat viewings)!

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#42 Post by senseabove » Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:31 pm

Ah, gotcha. No, no frustration (with the movie—or your response, to also be clear!), just an observation, mostly in light of being prompted to watch it for Deneuve as list subject and my expectations after you deemed it her best performance upthread. That isn't a superlative often given to what amounts to, comparatively, a supporting role screentime–wise.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#43 Post by domino harvey » Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:31 pm

I mean, based on how no one here has as of yet come forward to declare Deneuve a great actress, perhaps it’s only too apt!

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#44 Post by Feego » Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:41 pm

More and more the gif in the first post seems like Deneuve's reaction to reading this thread!

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#45 Post by swo17 » Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:57 pm

Was Cary Grant really all that great of an actor, as opposed to being a likable guy who was also in a lot of great movies?

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#46 Post by domino harvey » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:02 pm

Let me reframe then: everyone voted for her, but no one appears to really like her all that much. By contrast, I’d wager everyone who voted in the Cary Grant thread enjoyed Cary Grant

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#47 Post by knives » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:29 pm

I suspect the vote for her was due to her fame and the feeling like she’s been more prominent than she is. People probably think of the Demy and Buñel films first and forget or simply don’t know the bulk of her work is rather thankless support with the occasional amazing support.


This does remind me years ago of reading a Polanski interview when asked about Deneuve he responded by saying, in essence, she’s super talented but wasting her time and he has no clue what could have motivated those career deacons.

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Matt
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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#48 Post by Matt » Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:58 pm

I tried to warn you all:
Matt wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:04 pm
I would love to participate in an Alain Delon, Catherine Deneuve, or Isabelle Huppert list if I didn’t feel obligated to watch dozens of terrible films only to pick the same 20 I already know I like.
But maybe I still overestimated at 20 good films. I think she’s really only been a great actress for the last few decades, even then only sporadically. But she’s always been a great cinematic presence, used well by great directors who knew how to get what they needed out of her.

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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#49 Post by Matt » Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:08 pm

Honestly, some her best work is her Chanel No. 5 commercials, at least a few of which were directed by Helmut Newton. They were probably my earliest exposure to her. (Sorry for the ugly links, I’m on mobile):
https://youtu.be/Fr9sZEhpeyI
https://youtu.be/xIU-e07eNrw
https://youtu.be/zQGGgVNOOo0
https://youtu.be/vtQPYc4n5l8
https://youtu.be/dyQS_A3zO6U
https://youtu.be/TGVNGoMXE2c

If I submit a list, I’m pretty certain the first two will be on it. EDIT: Forgot about this legendary YSL ad by Jean-Baptiste Mondino (shot by Darius Khondji): https://youtu.be/kGwEET3uKFg

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Never Cursed
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Re: The Catherine Deneuve List

#50 Post by Never Cursed » Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:39 am

Weirdly I think Satan Conduit le Bal contains the best use of Deneuve the ingenue that I've seen yet (discounting Rochefort, which is obviously in a different mode altogether). As basically everyone who has seen the film here has noted, most of the characters are horrible humans in their cruel disregard for the lives/happiness of the others (a shared trait that generally manifests in a relentless desire to cheat on one's partner out of fuming boredom if nothing else), but Deneuve's role even among these specimens is special in that there seems to be no drive or motivation or even specific manifestation of her shittiness, and yet it is palpable nonetheless. Of the villa residents, she is (I think) the only one that doesn't attempt an affair, and as the flirtations grow in complexity and threat around her, one begins to realize that the thought never entered her mind. Deneuve's performance here is one of the best I've seen to capture the empty-headed capriciousness of immaturity, careening between tantrums and wide-eyed forgiveness in an agonizing representation of social and romantic naivete.

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