The Lukas Moodysson Collection

[MichaelB]

Yeah, it may well be that knulla, while impolite slang, isn’t quite as vulgar as fuck.

I can't speak for Swedish, but there are numerous parallel examples in other languages.

A literal translation of the opening line of A bout de souffle is "OK, I'm a cunt", and a very popular French comedy that was remade as Dinner for Schmucks has a title that literally translates as Dinner for Cunts - it's just that "con" is nowhere near as taboo in French as its direct English counterpart (hence it turning up in actual marquee titles in a way that's unimaginable in English).

And I believe the French verb "baiser", which literally means "to fuck", isn't as rude - not least because the noun "un baiser" also means "a kiss", and is perfectly acceptable.

[Mr Sausage]

Either way, it’s a strange move to promote an ethos of universalizing all these other terms for mass audiences and then sub in British slang of “shag.” If it’s less extreme, “We’re going to go have sex” would be fine, but “have a shag” is just perplexing.

‘Have sex’ isn’t colloquial, tho’. Provided this all isn’t just the eccentric rendering of a particular translator, I could see ‘shag’ being an effective middle ground between the uncolloquial ‘have sex’ and the vulgar ‘fuck’. It won’t be as effective for North Americans, sure, but it might be more literal.

[therewillbeblus]

Interesting point, I was thinking less in terms of direct translation and more in intended effect of the scene, in that the explicitness of "have sex" and "fuck" are more blunt ways of communicating an effectively shocking reveal to this audience of students, regardless of their colloquialness, whereas the "have a shag" phrase reads as elaborate rather than blunt.

[MichaelB]

Speaking as someone who constantly has to watch European films with jarringly American English subtitles ("jarringly" because I'm watching something from a country geographically close to me being rendered into idioms from a country thousands of miles away), it's hard for me to get especially exercised about all this.

And I'm with Mr Sausage here - "shag" does indeed work in that middle-ground sense (in that you can utter it in reasonably polite company without causing a conniption), and that may well be the rationale.

[furbicide]

Just to jump in here (because I saw the reference to this discussion in the Rivette thread and had to come to see what all the fuss was about!), good ol’ Wikipedia suggests the following about the word ‘knulla’:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_profanity

Notably, no word for sexual intercourse is commonly used in invectives, unlike many other languages (e.g., English fuck, Spanish joder, Mandarin cào / 肏/操).[1] However, calques of English fuck using knull (noun), knulla (verb) do occur; this comes across as more offensive than fuck does in English. In general, knull(a), along with genitalia slang words like kuk ('cock') and fitta ('cunt') are the most offensive single words.

[…]

Knulla (verb), knull (noun)
Lit. "(to) fuck", but less commonly used and more offensive than fuck in English. The verb can be used both intransitively (e.g. dom knullar "they're screwing") and transitively (mostly of males, e.g. han knullar henne "he's screwing her").

That does suggest that “fuck” is a perfectly reasonable translation and that “shag” (as delightful a term as it is) might if anything be unduly softening the line’s impact. But more power to subtitlers for helping those of us who don’t speak a given language to understand films (if only through a glass darkly), and for practising what can obviously never be an exact science.

[tenia]

A literal translation of the opening line of A bout de souffle is "OK, I'm a cunt", and a very popular French comedy that was remade as Dinner for Schmucks has a title that literally translates as Dinner for Cunts - it's just that "con" is nowhere near as taboo in French as its direct English counterpart (hence it turning up in actual marquee titles in a way that's unimaginable in English).

Cons and Cunts aren’t exactly counter-parts though. Cunt always seemed to me (ie a foreigner) like a much harsher word than Cons, which is a familiar and more vulgar variant of Idiot but not an intense swear-word (if necessary, we would often complement it with something like “He’s REALLY dumb”  Il est VRAIMENT con”). Dumbass might be a closer word, as Con is often used in a way of describing someone who’s felt to be kind of dumb.
When using back-slang, French can often substitute Con for “teubé”, which is the back-slang for Bête, which is indeed dumb/stupid.

Which also means that Con doesn’t necessary has a true and direct negative connotation to it. Le diner de cons, for instance, shows that it can be a bit tender to people we would call Con, and indeed, it’s also often French answer, for instance, to a silly joke by “Tu es con”, which would be the equivalent of a sweet “Oh, you stupid”.

As such, I’d say that “OK I’m a cunt” is quite a harsher translation, while Dinner for Schmucks isn’t so much a watered down translation than one hitting the right level of intensity between this rather amused but neutral use of Con and the way we can also use it to call someone who’s not really mean but that can feel kind of dumb and exhausting because of that.

[knives]

Schmuck actually really fits with what you say as well because a literal translation would be penis, but it never actually means that in common usage.

[tenia]

Interesting, I never knew schmuck also means penis !
(funnily enough, "teubé" is only one letter away from "teub", which is back-slang for the vulgar variant of penis)

[knives]

It’s a very funny word. I believe it’s root is in a German word for family jewels which I guess is where that joke comes from.

[MichaelB]

Although "common usage" should be qualified, as it's pretty much exclusively a North American slang term.

Not that it matters, as Britons will certainly know what "schmuck" means, even if they're unlikely to utter it outside a context of quotation or intentionally taking the piss out of Americans.

(Talking of which, one of my favourite recent examples of essentially harmless karmic retribution came when an American on Facebook asked for a translation of the extremely common British slang term that I used at the end of my last sentence. Naturally, I thought it would be hilarious to link to one of those "she-wee" devices that enable people of the female persuasion to facilitate surreptitious urination, and I was duly punished by being bombarded with ads for them for weeks afterwards.)

[Peacock]

Just to correct something above - con and cunt are used exactly the same way here tenia as you do in France. At least in Scotland and Ireland. But I know many Northern English and Londoners who use it the same way so I’m not too sure what Michael is talking about here! Certainly in the US it is considered a much harsher word.

[knives]

I guess the question would be if Ireland would be comfortable producing a very mainstream comedy called something like, Oh You Cunt.

[Cipater]

Swede here. Sorry for my late arrival. 'Knulla' means 'fuck', and it most certainly did so in 1998. I'm no good with British slang, but I suspect 'shag' is on par with our 'ligga' (popular) or 'pöka' (dated). Completely neutral would be 'ha sex'.

Haven't seen the film in quite some time, but does the film's dialogue often use the English-language word 'fucking' as an all-purpose intensifier, like in the title? It is common in Sweden and not nearly considered as foul as in the US/UK. I suppose I could see a translator wanting to distinguish between the two, as our loaned fuck/fucking has zero sexual connotations, and is never used in that way.

[swo17]

My recollection is that the film itself is fairly tame language-wise. That's interesting if the severity of the film's title might be better conveyed in American English as something like "Stupid Åmål"

[therewillbeblus]

That's interesting if the severity of the film's title might be better conveyed in American English as something like "Stupid Åmål"

That's how I've always interpreted its tone. Elin says it twice, if I recall- the first time a bit more animated shouting 'I can't wait to get out of fucking Amal (read: this stupid town)' and the second time asking Agnes more calmly, 'Is it because you live in fucking Amal?' in response to why she's never been with a woman before. It's always read as synonymous with that teenage angst itching about getting out of their lame suburb, which I felt was uttered quite a bit by my cohort in high school ('fucking', 'lame', 'stupid', 'boring', etc. as all interchangeable), and plays a lot differently from the sharp mic drop of "We're going to fuck" in the climax. Thanks for chiming in, Cipater

[Cipater]

My recollection is that the film itself is fairly tame language-wise. That's interesting if the severity of the film's title might be better conveyed in American English as something like "Stupid Åmål"

It's stronger than 'stupid', but when untranslated and used in Sweden I'd argue it's on par with 'jävla' (roughly equivalent to 'damn', perhaps a little stronger). When she says "Varför måste vi bo i fucking jävla kuk-Åmål?!" ("Why must we live in 'fucking' damn cock-Åmål?!"), I'd say the first two ('fucking' and 'damn') are equal, whereas the usage of 'kuk' is more jarring and severe.

It's funny –- and interesting! -- to see such an extended discussion on Swedish expletives in this thread, haha. And I suppose it highlights the difficulties in properly translating curse words: it's one thing to do a 1:1 translation of their literal meaning, and another to convey their much more complicated and subtle, context-bound specificity.