Ingmar Bergman (1918-2007)

A subforum to discuss film culture and criticism
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Michael
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:09 pm

#176 Post by Michael » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:20 am

Incidently, in that scene, I had no idea Thulin was removing her clitoris. I assumed she was just cutting herself. What did I miss?
I never thought she was cutting off her clitoris till David mentioned here earlier (which I thought was far out). Clitoris or not, I still think this scene was not done for the sake of shock.. it was utterly appropriate (awful it was) for Ingrid's character to do something like that...naturally repulsed we may become of that action but it was completely cathartic (and yes, necessary) for her.

I always perceive this film as Swedish Gothic with horror and ghosts. Some of my favorite ingredients for films.
Last edited by Michael on Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#177 Post by MichaelB » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:23 am

Michael wrote:I never thought she was cutting off her clitoris till David mentioned here earlier (which I thought was far out). Clitoris or not, I still think this scene was not done for the sake of shock.. it was utterly appropriate (awful it was) for Ingrid's character to do something like that...naturally repulsed we may become of that action but it was completely cathartic (and yes, necessary) for her.
It's ages since I saw the film, but my interpretation was that she was mutilating her labia in order to make it impossible for her husband to have intercourse with her - not a clitoridectomy at all.

User avatar
Michael
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:09 pm

#178 Post by Michael » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:32 am

It's ages since I saw the film, but my interpretation was that she was mutilating her labia in order to make it impossible for her husband to have intercourse with her - not a clitoridectomy at all
Yeah but all this talk about exactly where Ingrid cut herself is forcing me to evaluate where exactly she cut herself.. that never came to my mind every time I watched Cries and Whispers. All I thought about was the blood coming out of her and that was all it mattered - her release out of that long-frozen icicle she was trapped inside. Whether her husband having intercourse with her or not doesn't make any difference, I think.. it was probably like having sex with a corpse to her any way. A very loveless marriage that was. I have to watch that movie again.. it's been a while.

User avatar
tryavna
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

#179 Post by tryavna » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:46 am

Orphic Lycidas wrote:what Edgar Allan Poe is to literature, a popular, more-or-less superficial product meant to entice newcomers into the field.
Off-topic and perhaps a bit nit-picky, but how long has it been since you've actually read any Poe? If it's been a while, I urge you to re-read his best stories and, especially, his non-fiction. Poe's poetry is indeed mediocre, but some of his short fiction approaches a perfection only equalled in the 19th century by Chekhov and Maupassant. And along with Margaret Fuller, he was one of the two most perceptive literary critics in antebellum America.

Sortini
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:15 pm

#180 Post by Sortini » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:36 pm

Speaking of "choking on shit", here's an anecdote about Bergman that surely sheds some light on his way of looking at things.

In the eighties, Bergman was the guest of honour at the Reykjavik Art Festival. On arrival, he was taken to a luxury apartment belonging to the Presidency of Iceland. Upon entering, Bergman, much to everyone's surprise, went straight to the bathroom and flushed the toilet. He then voiced his displeasure with the toilet, because the water went down instantly in one flush. He explained that he wanted it to go in slow circles, so that he would be able to observe his droppings disappear in a sort of maelstrom.

Luckily for the organizers of the festival, a luxury suite with a maelstrom toilet was found for Bergman. But I'm sure that for some of them, Bergman's toilet story is a more vivid memory now than his excellent production of Miss Julie shown at the festival.

User avatar
My Man Godfrey
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Austin

#181 Post by My Man Godfrey » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:30 pm

Ha -- Sortini, you made that up.

Robert de la Cheyniest
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:06 pm

#182 Post by Robert de la Cheyniest » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:42 pm

If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that watching your fecal matter slowly dissapear in a maelstrom of water is certainly one of life's greatest pleasures.

User avatar
Barmy
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 3:59 pm

#183 Post by Barmy » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:52 pm

Glad to see a little Bergman hate creeping in here.

His first 10 films were crap, Saraband is an ugly, trite embarrassment, and there's a lot of boring dross in between: Brink of Life, Winter Light, Autumn Sonata, for example. Even the good 50s films are very middlebrow. Cries and Whispers: I'd like to think it was intended as a red comedy, but I doubt it was. Certainly the dinner table scene is a scream.

I wish he made more color films as the color tends to freshen up his dreary themes. His 70s work may appear a bit dated, but films like Anna, The Touch and parts of Face to Face, for example, offer a lot to enjoy. Let's hope more of this stuff gets out on DVD.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

#184 Post by domino harvey » Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:36 pm

Did you mean to post that on the .com forum or what

User avatar
Steven H
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:30 pm
Location: NC

#185 Post by Steven H » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:02 pm


Sortini
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:15 pm

#186 Post by Sortini » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:45 pm

Ha -- Sortini, you made that up.
Well no, this is a true story told to me by one of those people who had to frantically seek for the right kind of toilet in every hotel in Reykjavik.

Laterna magica is full of stories about Bergman's stomach problems and what they entailed. The one that took place in the Eiffel Tower is particularly memorable.

I think Bergman agreed with Nietzsche: "The lower abdomen is the reason man does not so easily consider himself a god."

User avatar
My Man Godfrey
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:47 pm
Location: Austin

#187 Post by My Man Godfrey » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:05 am

His first 10 films were crap, Saraband is an ugly, trite embarrassment, and there's a lot of boring dross in between: Brink of Life, Winter Light, Autumn Sonata, for example. Even the good 50s films are very middlebrow. Cries and Whispers: I'd like to think it was intended as a red comedy, but I doubt it was. Certainly the dinner table scene is a scream.
Those are all just empty labels and slogans. They can be applied to any director and sound about as persuasive:

"Ozu's first 10 films were crap, Tokyo Twilight is an ugly, trite embarrassment, and there's a lot of boring dross in between ..."

"Antonioni is bollocks. He's just a pretentious fuckwit who doesn't know how to tell a story properly, so he relies on a lot of bullshit symbolism ..."

"Mizoguchi is shite. Ugetsu and Sansho are overrated, Sisters of the Gion is crap, and all the junk he made in between is an embarrassing bore. I had to quit watching The Story of the Last Chrysanthemums halfway through out of embarrassment for the guy. Still better than Theo Angelopolous, though."

"Hitchcock's films are a waste of celluloid. The only good film he ever made was Family Plot, and that's just because Bruce Dern was basically making fun of the movie the whole time. You look in Dern's eyes in certain scenes, and you can actually see him thinking, 'This guy is a great director?' Still, Rebecca works if you read it as a parody of a certain kind of inept thriller."

"Glad to see some Welles hate creeping in here. Citizen Kane is the only halfway-decent thing he ever did, and even that is about an hour too long, and filled with embarrassing symbolism. Plus, it's widely known by those who care to do the research that his supporting actors practically directed the film themselves. I actually laughed out loud when the film revealed that Rosebud was a sled. Still, better than Touch of Evil, starring the great Mexican actor Charlton Heston. What a joke. Welles's voice work in the Transformers movie was pretty good, though."

"Francis Ford Coppola is probably the most overrated director of all time, after Carl T. Dreyer. The irony is that while his early films are still praised by middlebrows the world over, it wasn't until Jack that he began to demonstrate basic competence as a storyteller. I defy you to watch the second half of the Conversation and tell me what the fuck is going on."

"I'm glad to see that people are finally giving up the tired pretense of liking Ernst Lubitsch. There's one director who never knew what to do with sound; his early talkies are a mess, and some of his later work -- I'm thinking of Ninotchka, Heaven Can Wait, and most of The Shop Around the Corner -- is so dreadful, you have to wonder why the studios even bothered to restore it. The first half hour of Trouble in Paradise is okay, though. Too bad he lifted all of those scenes from other directors."

Wait -- this is actually sort of fun.

But can we, like, set aside another URL for this kind of stuff? I sort of value the discussions on this forum.
Last edited by My Man Godfrey on Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#188 Post by MichaelB » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:07 am

Robert de la Cheyniest wrote:If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that watching your fecal matter slowly dissapear in a maelstrom of water is certainly one of life's greatest pleasures.
...as Lars Von Trier and Morton Arnfred highlighted in The Kingdom II, when Dr Stig Helmer (Ernst-Hugo Jaregard) pays repeated visits to a similar facility for - as far as I can see, since it's shot from the bowl's POV - very similar reasons.

ivuernis
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:35 pm

#189 Post by ivuernis » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:54 am


User avatar
tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:18 pm

#190 Post by tavernier » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:47 am

Barmy wrote:His 70s work may appear a bit dated, but films like Anna, The Touch and parts of Face to Face, for example, offer a lot to enjoy.
You must be a Bergman hater if you like The Touch. I haven't yet met any Bergman fan who can stomach it.

And only "parts" of Face to Face? The original Swedish TV version is one of his greatest works.

User avatar
Barmy
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 3:59 pm

#191 Post by Barmy » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:12 pm

Some of "Face to Face" is a bit awkward (the dream sequences); still a great piece. And, yes, I love "The Touch". Passionately.

Sortini
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:15 pm

#192 Post by Sortini » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:06 pm

It's a long time since I saw The Touch, but I remember thinking that Bergman was trying to say something about the Jews. The Elliott Gould character is a fish out of water among the dry and aseptic Nordics, a bit like the Coen brothers in Minnesota and among the inhabitants of Fargo.

User avatar
tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:18 pm

#193 Post by tavernier » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:49 pm

It was Bibi, not Harriet, Andersson in "The Touch" -- I know, it must've been the ganja.

User avatar
lord_clyde
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:22 am
Location: Ogden, UT

#194 Post by lord_clyde » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:27 pm

davidhare wrote:And the Jewish American guy was Woody Allen!!! :oops:
It was on the top of my tongue!

David Ehrenstein
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:30 pm
Contact:

#195 Post by David Ehrenstein » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:30 am

The Touch would have been SO much better had it starred Woody Allen and Diane Keaton.

User avatar
lord_clyde
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:22 am
Location: Ogden, UT

#196 Post by lord_clyde » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:23 pm

David Ehrenstein wrote:The Touch would have been SO much better had it starred Woody Allen and Diane Keaton.
I find you could apply that statement to almost any movie.

Examples: Jurassic Park, Commando, Children of Men.

The possibilities!

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#197 Post by MichaelB » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:21 pm

With Commando, presumably we're talking Keaton in the Arnie role and Woody as Rae Dawn Chong?

User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#198 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:51 pm

I've not yet seen Cries And Whispers but the cutting scene you describe sounds similar to the scene in The Piano Teacher. Is there anything in that? If it is filmed in a similar way to the Haneke film it seems that the mutilation would played more for the emotional power rather than just the repulsion of knowing exactly which part of herself the lady is cutting (even though the suggestion of that would probably add another level of discomfort for the viewer).

I was taken a little aback at the criticism of Bergman with his passing - I suppose it goes to show that being a recognised name doesn't exactly equate to having the work be well liked! Rather than feeling that Bergman didn't add anything to cinema except miserablism, I've found many of his pictures deeply felt and with a questioning of the worlds and actions of the characters he creates that often leaves me with an impression of discovering the worlds with his characters and even with Bergman himself. Even some of the later films that don't have that sense of discovery of plot and character and which leave me with the impression that I'm watching a film whose outcome has been somewhat predetermined and set in stone such as The Serpent's Egg or Fanny And Alexander have their own pleasures and perhaps were more accessible to audiences because of the feeling of being in the hands of someone telling them a (superficially) recognisable plot and setting.

I liked the sense of seeing someone wrestle with big questions, even if in wrestling with huge, indefinable vagaries of religion or love Bergman laid the films themselves open to ridicule or for parody.

I loved the way that the style of Bergman's films ranged from pastoral beauty and richly detailed period interiors to stark, bare landscapes, and isolated islands. All giving a feeling of self contained worlds for their introspective characters to talk with each other, tear each other apart, fantasise and dream. Beautiful, theatrical productions in that sense, yet they were also perfect cinema, environments informed by the characters actions and vice versa.

Probably my favourite Bergman film is Through A Glass Darkly, along with Winter Light (I wrote more on my reactions to those films on the threads for the Film Trilogy), and Wild Strawberries, with Shame and Passion Of Anna not far behind. Any filmmaker should be proud to have made even one film of such quality, and these aren't even the most celebrated of Bergman's career.

I'll never forget the long take of Marta reading her letter to Tomas in Winter Light broken after four minutes by the abrupt cut to Tomas's trembling hands rifling through the pages in anguish, crumpling some, dropping some to the floor. How emotion could be conveyed just through the movement of the hands has stayed with me.

Or the horn sounding over the landscape in Through A Glass Darkly.

Or Andreas pacing like a caged animal in a steadily tightening frame, zooming in so far it becomes static in The Passion of Anna, or the long evening conversation in the same film.
Last edited by colinr0380 on Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#199 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:12 pm

davidhare wrote:Yet Isabelle's act of self mutilation in the Haneke seems to genuinely arise from the character's own psychology. In the Bergman, Ingrid's gesture just seems to me like something laid on by Bergman for overemphasis, or simply punishment.
That is interesting. It sounds a little like the mother in The Virgin Spring pouring the candle wax over her wrist in an act of mortification. It was used in that film however, along with the mother's head dress, to make the distinct contrast between how the mother treated herself compared to her cosseted daughter. Were there similar kinds of contrasts being made between the characters in Cries and Whispers?

(I think the answer is that I need to see the film and find out for myself!)

Sortini
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:15 pm

#200 Post by Sortini » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:28 pm

I wonder if Bergman gave Ingrid any explanaton for her act? Probably not.

I just read the Corliss interview with Liv Ullmann about Saraband on time.com where the question of the relationship between father and daughter comes up and Liv says: "You know, when actors do a movie with Ingmar we don't ask, "What do you mean?" or "Is there really incest?" It's up to each of us to make a choice."

Post Reply