Jean-Luc Godard

[Michael]

As for poetry being impossible withing the "cinema dialog", I press you to watch the Histoire(s). There you have a work almost entirely assemble from quotes and references, but even if one doesn't pick up on all (or any) of the references, it's breathtakingly beautiful, and the closest thing to a visual poem that I've ever seen.

I haven't seen Histoire(s) but your descriptions of Godard's "cinema dialog" reminded me of the whole bedroom scene with Belmondo and Seberg - their dialogues are so beautiful and poetic as the camera changes positions. And also the dialogues in some scenes of Alphaville I saw last night were startlingly poetic.

[HerrSchreck]

First of all, apologies all round if I've been snarky or condescending. It's just that, to me, Ando's argument that Godard is not a born filmmaker, not "vital to the form", just because his films demand some level of intellectual effort on the part of the audience, is pretty intolerable.

Then you shouldn't be on a bulletin board, where opinions on films and directors will vary widely-- you're either seeking confirmation for your own opinions or you're going to flip if someone mentions 'the intolerable opinion'. No filmmaker is sacred on this board.

There is little or no place in a scientific theory for poetry.

Don't tell that to Tom Pynchon. He has it about his noodle that he wrote a pretty damned great book about the V2 rocket, and lashed out of its physics and engineering and launch some of the finest poetry and poetic metaphor of the 20th century.

[FerdinandGriffon]

Ok, ok, HerrSchreck. I've read Gravity's Rainbow too, and a very fine book it is, but rocket manual it is not. It's a novel, a postmodern masterpiece that finds beauty in both poetry and intellectual and formal experimentation. Much like a Godard film.

I can tolerate just fine people who don't like Godard, for example, your criticisms were valid and well thought out, even if I w don't agree with them. But Ando's argument that Godard is bad because he's intellectual is a torpedo fish. How are we expected to have a worthwhile intellectual discussion about a filmmaker if one of participants keeps insisting that intellectual matters have no place in film?

[HerrSchreck]

Who said it was a rocket manual? If it were, then the book wouldn't fit into the discussion here nor be the pretty thing that it is. I said the book finds the poetry lurking within engineering... because you said that

There is little or no place in a scientific theory for poetry.

And you said the above in an attempt to invalidate my Einstein scenario, which I don't buy. The same way you can render a beautiful sculpture from joints and screws and pieces of graph paper, so in many cases can you find wondrous metaphors and pieces of wisdom in the world of scientific theory. Why can you find a beautifully poetic metaphor in just about anything. There are some who might say e=mc2 is the most beautiful short poem in the world.

But we're dancing around scraps increasingly further from the table here-- you're taking to the extreme ando's complaint about JLG and Contempt and using it against him/her. Clearly ando intellectualizes film or ando wouldnt be on the board talking in intellectual terms about film over all these years, and watching films that require second and third viewings, and engaging in analysis.

What ando is saying is that Contempt continuously booted him out of the melodrama (it was elsewhere mostly sincerely attempting to create) via it's klunky and highly mannered mechanisms-- and that this experience was not pleasant. I felt the precise same thing when I watched it in the cinema.. and I came on the board and tried to open a discussion regarding this very topic.. i e "Is Godard seeking to entertain the viewer in this film?" What passes for avant stylings or self-reflexivity in other wonderfully odd and very intellectual-yet-very-beautiful pieces of cinema, here registered as the most unengaging cinema in the world.

Ando is probably saying the kind of cinema that is most engaging for him is the cinema of Tarkovsky, the hypnotic tapestry woven by a skillful and intelligent director (I seem to recall ando posting a lot on AT & Bresson), filmmakers who though inconoclastic and extremely thoughtful and intelligent means, bring you to them. Rather than have to stop repeatedly in the middle of the film with endless "wtf?"'s, he prefers a director who can move thru illusion, self-reflexivity, melodrama, iconoclastic conceits, etc, but never break the cinematic spell.

[zedz]

do you really Ando should approach film insisting that it's a problem if a film makes him think?

That's a pretty wild misrepresentation of what he actually said, which doesn't do your argument any favours. I'd love to join you guys in the hot tub, but I'm not allowed to argue with Godardians, Foucauldians or Scientologists.

[FerdinandGriffon]

do you really Ando should approach film insisting that it's a problem if a film makes him think?

That's a pretty wild misrepresentation of what he actually said, which doesn't do your argument any favours. I'd love to join you guys in the hot tub, but I'm not allowed to argue with Godardians, Foucauldians or Scientologists.

I don't want to think when I watch a film - I want to feel.

[Michael]

I still don't get some of rabid Godard militants here and elsewhere. I've been enjoying some of his films on their own.

I'd love to join you guys in the hot tub, but I'm not allowed to argue with Godardians, Foucauldians or Scientologists.

Surely hop in the hot tub, at least with me. Do you have Godard favorites?

[FerdinandGriffon]

HerrShreck, what i meant to say is that a Rocket manual may contain poetry, but is not written with poetry in mind as a goal. The goal is to explain how to use a rocket, the poetry, if it is there, is a happy accident. Whereas a work of art like Gravity's Rainbow finds the hidden poetry in the rocket manual and brings it to the fore. Poetic potential may be in a screw or scrap of metal or a urinal, but we wouldn't display them in an art gallery if it weren't for the artist who puts them together into a sculpture, or even just signs his name to them. I guess what I'm saying is that the problem with comparing a work of artistic genius with one of scientific genius is one of intention.
Nonetheless, I'll repeat that I find your ant-Godard arguments mostly sound and reasonable. I don't think that they're the same as Ando's though. I doubt that you'd ever say that it irritated you that a film made you think. It's that statement that's driving me nuts, and it's also a statement that I'd say is fairly at odds with fully appreciating Tarkovsky and Bresson. Remember, even Tarkovsky himself couldn't resist calling certain images in his films symbols, and Bresson was nearly as much of a fan of Godard's as Godard was of him.

And Michael, not to drag you into an argument you may want nothing to do with, you seem like you appreciate the poetry in Godard's films. Have you seen Contempt yet?

[HerrSchreck]

HerrShreck, what i meant to say is that a Rocket manual may contain poetry, but is not written with poetry in mind as a goal. The goal is to explain how to use a rocket, the poetry, if it is there, is a happy accident. Whereas, a work of art like Gravity's Rainbow finds the hidden poetry in the rocket manual and brings it to the fore. Poetic potential may be in a screws or scraps or urinal, but we wouldn't display them in an art gallery if it weren't for the artist who puts them together into a sculpture, or even just signs his name to them. I guess what I'm saying is that the problem with comparing a work of artistic genius with one of scientific genius is one of intention.

And Michael, not to drag you into an argument you may want nothing to do with, you seem like you appreciate the poetry in Godard's films. Have you seen Contempt yet?

Ferd, this is all bent up and twisted. Yes, Pynchon uses the rocket and it's engineering and lays them against larger 20th century themes and crafts a masterwork. The poetry comes from the author and what he does with and sees within-- enabling us to perceive same-- the source material. That was my point. I'm not clear why you're still stuck here....

We're still not getting to my original point here, which is trying-- desperately-- to bring to you via (the I thought very simple) Einstein scenario what it is that ando was trying to say, which is not anywhere near as damning or categorical as you make it out to be. He doesn't want to be stuck there in his seat wondering what the %$@# is up with this film he's watching, which isn't working as a piece of cinema-- that despite the quality of some of the intellectual content within the picture ("engaged in intellectual terms", which you brought up) the film as a film just is not working. That being intellectually engaged is fine, but this requires, if it wants to be a film, a functioning cinematic vehicle for delivery. What Pychon was able to deliver in GR, and that Einstein in my hypothetical example was not... as was not JLG in Contempt. That if ando wants to sit there and be purely intellectually engaged, he'll seek out a means for delivery of the same intellectual frieght in a more appropriate aesthetic vehicle, or a more highly skilled director.

I can't speak for ando on this one, but I think the "I don't want to think, I want to feel" was a passing statement. If I sit down in a restaurant with a date and what I feel is a really bad mexican mariachi is blaring near me and I can't whisper my sweet bull shit and eat in peace, I may say "When I come to a restaurant, I don't want to listen, I want to eat and quetly talk,".... does this mean I am really not ever interested in the dudes of Mexico and their beautiful ballads? Does it mean I can't appreciate music and food at the same time? Is it really neccessary to extrapolate to it's extreme the point of the statement? It just means turn the volume down furchrissakes... or at least learn your instrument if you want to be so loud and intrusive.

[Michael]

Have you seen Contempt yet?

Yes, long long time ago. My memories of the film are not fresh enough to say anything about it.

[FerdinandGriffon]

Herr, I agree with you. I think we both tampered with Ando's arguments. I blew them out of proportion, you toned them down and gave them a rational foundation I'm not sure they had before. Now let's stop arguing before we scare Michael away from his new found Godard love.

[HerrSchreck]

Herr, I agree with you. I think we both tampered with Ando's arguments. I blew them out of proportion, you toned them down and gave them a rational foundation I'm not sure they had before. Now let's stop arguing before we scare Michael away from his new found Godard love.

Deal.

PS: I wouldn't worry about Michael. Mike's a sturdy guy, and can easily separate the wheat from the .

[Kirkinson]

if you really don't want to think when you watch a film, and actually believe that thinking and feeling aren't intimately, inseparably connected, then not only should you give up immediately on Godard, you should also probably abandon serious film altogether, as with that attitude, you'll never be able to fully appreciate the vast majority of the great works of art the medium has produced.

I think I'd go even further and say that such a person would never be able to fully appreciate the vast majority of the great works of art any medium has produced.

Am I really supposed to think about that?

Ando,

Speaking for myself here, the only reason I made my addition was to agree with Ferd's notion that thinking and feeling are "intimately, inseparably connected" and that segregating them will lead to a less than full appreciation of a great film, and to say that I feel it also applies to great works in all forms of art. That's really all there was to it. I wasn't even trying to engage you at all (if I was, I would have addressed my comment specifically to you) and I certainly wasn't trying to belittle you, as HerrSchreck has suggested. I understand your position, I would only question the framing of it as thinking vs. feeling, and I only say so now because I've been called out by HerrSchreck for doing something I had no intention of doing and still don't think I actually did (but maybe the air I've been sniffing is so rarefied that I'm losing oxygen). It was Ferd's single statement I was moved to comment on; otherwise I wouldn't have chimed in at all. Though you didn't register any offense at my remark yourself, I apologize if it came across as condescending. Please be assured I was not sneering as I typed it.

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

This is from pg. 322 of MacCabe's "Godard: A Portrait of the Artist at Seventy":

"I wish I could do a normal picture, normally, but with me, I don't know why, it's not possible".

Some people are moved by his style, ruminations and emotion, as displayed through his abnormal cinema. Some aren't. Personally, I think Contempt is perfect. Now if you want to say Slow Motion is worthless, I'm listening.

[ando]

Though you didn't register any offense at my remark yourself, I apologize if it came across as condescending. Please be assured I was not sneering as I typed it.

None offense taken. Though you all now have me on a Godard retrospective of sorts: picked the new Richard Brody book, Everything Is Cinema: The Working Life of Jean-Luc Godard, picked up Alphaville to watch for the first time and I'm rewatching Contempt as well. I also picked up Royal Brown's Focus On Godard and Douglas Morrey's Jean-Luc Godard. I must say that none of the material looks as challenging as James Quant's Bresson book that I've been wading through over the past year. So there's some hope that I may come to at least appreciate Monsieur Godard.

[Michael]

Thanks to my recent rediscovery of Breathless, I was inspired to treat myself with a quick Godard marathon. Here follows my ranking of his films from Breathless through Pierrot le fou. I was not able to locate Le petit soldat and Les carabiniers.

1. Breathless - of all the films I've seen by Godard, this one feels the most pure. It's jazzy, romantic, and mysterious - not so burdened by Godard's ego that you get in his later films. Several scenes brought my mind to the best of Nicholas Ray and it's no surprise that he's among Godard's inspirations, I later learned. I love Breathless and its exquisite images - esp of Belmondo and Seberg wearing sunglasses and fedoras, smoking, loitering among cars. Its powerful position in cinema art is well deserved.

2. Vivre va sie - this one belongs to Anna Karina like Nights of Cabiria belongs to Giulietta Masina, director filming his love playing a hooker trying to find love and existence. A gripping and emotional piece with Karina's best performance.

3. Alphaville - I was startled by how brilliant it was. Gorgeous minimalist b/w cinematography, a definite influence on 2001 and Bladerunner. Loved those "wheelchair" shots of replica/geishas leading guys to rooms. Eddie Constantine rocks! He really made this film for me in many ways.

4. A Woman is a Woman - infectiously charming and breezy.

4. Pierrot le fou - Lovely color palette every scene. Difficult or draggy for those who aren't familiar with Godard or just don't care for him. You'd need a lot of warming up to Godard to appreciate this film because it's pretty much Godard's "greatest hits".

5. Contempt - the fact it has so many staunch fans here still baffles me. Contempt captures the rugged beauty of Cinecitta and Capri - the best part of the film. The people are such a bore, I couldn't care less about the writer or the woman. For the best demise of a relationship on film, Mulholland Dr. is it.

6. Band of Outsiders - tedious! None of it worked for me. Breathless doesn't hang on its plot which isn't much anyway but BoO does the opposite, hanging too heavily on its plot which isn't much.

[HerrSchreck]

5. Contempt - the fact it has so many staunch fans here still baffles me. Contempt captures the rugged beauty of Cinecitta and Capri - the best part of the film. The people are such a bore, I couldn't care less about the writer or the woman. For the best demise of a relationship on film, Mulholland Dr. is it.

Perhaps not neccessarily about the demise of a relationship, but one of my recent ephiphanies which dealt with how time and boredom weave their sad and deadly effects on a relationship, I recently saw Sirk's There's Always Tomorrow-- devastating!

"I wish I could do a normal picture, normally, but with me, I don't know why, it's not possible".

Because you don't know how, dude. You never had the career patience and love of craft to learn.

Speaking of the beauties of slo-mo... One of my most impressive moments in all of my film-viewing escapades was seeing the Jean Epstein I'd come to know as relentlessly avant and otherworldly (the haunting beauties of slo-mo spring from Usher) turn in one of the most heartfelt and sincere-- and visually very beautiful-- melodramas I'd ever seen, Coeur Fidele. That's a film master for you.

[LQ]

Michael, I'm so glad that you're finding so much to admire and enjoy in Godard's films! I wholeheartedly agree with you (at least on the first 4 ) and would love to hear anything else you have to say about them.


OH, and I'm reminded of something. I still am waiting with baited breath to hear domino's ode to Pierrot. Pretty please?

[Michael]

Perhaps not neccessarily about the demise of a relationship, but one of my recent ephiphanies which dealt with how time and boredom weave their sad and deadly effects on a relationship, I recently saw Sirk's There's Always Tomorrow-- devastating!

So happy you're digging Sirk! I've always longed to see There's Always Tomorrow, hoping to get money for Christmas so I could order that French set.

Speaking of the beauties of slo-mo... One of my most impressive moments in all of my film-viewing escapades was seeing the Jean Epstein I'd come to know as relentlessly avant and otherworldly (the haunting beauties of slo-mo spring from Usher) turn in one of the most heartfelt and sincere-- and visually very beautiful-- melodramas I'd ever seen, Coeur Fidele. That's a film master for you.

Totally agreed. The moment when Roderick discovers his wife dead, his reaction is very disturbing and disorientating to absorb, thanks to how it's filmed. One of my favorite shots of ALL TIME is the one of Roderick sitting awaiting his wife's homecoming. He rocks in the chair with that expression (impossible to describe) on his face - with the most certainty that his wife's on her way home - as the fireplace roaring in the back.

Where can I find Coeur Fidele?

[FerdinandGriffon]

4. Pierrot le fou - Lovely color palette every scene. Difficult or draggy for those who aren't familiar with Godard or just don't care for him. You'd need a lot of warming up to Godard to appreciate this film because it's pretty much Godard's "greatest hits".

5. Contempt - the fact it has so many staunch fans here still baffles me. Contempt captures the rugged beauty of Cinecitta and Capri - the best part of the film. The people are such a bore, I couldn't care less about the writer or the woman. For the best demise of a relationship on film, Mulholland Dr. is it.

6. Band of Outsiders - tedious! None of it worked for me. Breathless doesn't hang on its plot which isn't much anyway but BoO does the opposite, hanging too heavily on its plot which isn't much.

4. I wouldn't say that Pierrot was a greatest hits as much as it was the first time that Godard clearly established his major themes and concerns. There are elements of Pierrot in nearly every film that Godard has made since, and for me it marks the main turning point in his career. My favorite Godard (followed by Prenom Carmen and Helas pour moi), my favorite film period, and one I too would love to hear from Domino about.

5. It's funny that you brought up Mulholland Drive, as Lynch's film is hugely indebted to Contempt. In fact, Lynch embedded his Hollywood melodrama with enough Godard references to justify a webpage listing them.

And for the record, I think that both Contempt and Pierrot beat Mulholland in the demise department. Drive is a fascinating, hypnotic TV pilot, but it's small screen roots and tacked on conclusion show.

6. I would have to agree. My least favorite Godard film (and I've seen all of them.) It has it's lovely moments (the minute of silence, Sami Frey's remarkable resemblance to France Kafka, much of the photography), but it's also probably Godard's most normal movie. From any other director I'd probably consider a sweet, harmless little trifle, but compared to the rest of Godard's work, it pales.

[HerrSchreck]

Coeur Fidele dvd.

There's a tiny clip of it here, though not very representative. The merry-go-round scene is very beautiful, however.

[Michael]

5. It's funny that you brought up Mulholland Drive, as Lynch's film is hugely indebted to Contempt. In fact, Lynch embedded his Hollywood melodrama with enough Godard references to justify a webpage listing them.

And for the record, I think that both Contempt and Pierrot beat Mulholland in the demise department. Drive is a fascinating, hypnotic TV pilot, but it's small screen roots and tacked on conclusion show.

Thanks for the link. No wonder why Mulholland sneaked into my mind after viewing Contempt.
And how so true that the director in Mulholland looks very much like Godard. The minimalist style and modernity of the furniture in the flat and at that Capri hotel also reminded me of those in some of Lynch's films. And that Silencio.

There is one truly startling shot in Contempt that still lingers with me: Piccoli resigning on Capri rocks as Bardot swimming away into the Mediterranean.

But to me Mulholland is more emotionally brutal and devastating. The ghost of Camille appears in Betty's eyes as she makes coffee. Betty masturbates to the blurry view of fireplace stones. The light of sheer joy on Betty's face as Camille leads her up the stairs toward the brutal dinner party. The women are alive and breathing that makes it all harder to accept their demise and loss while the couple in Contempt seem like beautiful-looking corpses that couldn't wait to be buried.

Ferdinand, what do you think of Inland Empire? Just curious. It's one of very few films that resides in my mind every day.

[Mr Sausage]

but it's small screen roots and tacked on conclusion show.

I probably wrote this in the David lynch thread a while ago, but I'll reiterate it here: the idea that the first two hours are the original pilot and the last half hour is new stuff is a myth. The original pilot was ninty minutes (two hours with commercials), and Lynch was very dissatisfied with the result. The reshoots included a number of scenes inserted into the original pilot, such as Club Silencio (the best scene in the movie) and the love affair between Betty and Rita, which make it much the better, I think most would agree. But I'm surprised you say its "small screen roots" show, since nothing Lynch makes for tv, Twin Peaks included, seems like tv: it always has that cinematic feel. I don't believe he shoots tv shows any different than movies.

And I'll just add, because it's the Godard thread, how heartbreaking it is to see Contempt trashed and dismissed. It's the only Godard film I feel anything more than ambivilance for (indeed, I adore it), and people are just going to town on it. I imagine the effect is like hearing a group of people discuss how much they hate your girlfriend.

[karmajuice]

Or your only pretty girlfriend, when all the other ones you had were rather plain.

I don't remember Band of Outsiders that well, which possibly indicates a lack of impact. I recall enjoying it, and I remember the scene where they're dancing, and I vaguely remember the robbery. Everything else is vague. I need to see it again and re-evaluate it, along with much of Godard's work. Breathless is the only film I've watched again recently. I really need to catch up and try to see more of his stuff, too.

I have yet to see Contempt. I'm waiting for the blu-ray.

PS: I'll have you know that I almost made a terrible pun in this post, but I resisted the temptation. Can anyone guess what it would have been?

[Poncho Punch]

PS: I'll have you know that I almost made a terrible pun in this post, but I resisted the temptation. Can anyone guess what it would have been?

Everything else is [nouvelle?] vague.