Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[swo17]

Let's say you're an American consumer who for better or worse doesn't have an interest in watching any foreign language films? That doesn't describe nearly anyone here but it does describe a lot of people elsewhere.

What is the benefit to those consumers of going multi region, beyond some slightly cheaper releases from overseas?

Obviously this argument doesn't hold weight, but it does sound exactly like the kind of thing that someone who wasn't region free might think without having done much research. Which doesn't mean they're right exactly but helps explain their behavior.

[kingofthejungle]

Despite wanting WSSRH? very much, he is not interested in going region free. That sort of reasoning is rife amongst Blu-ray.com and HTF users, especially the North Americans (the Brits seem to be much more open to the idea).

I imagine that there are lots of people who are film fans and enjoy watching Blu-rays, but don't care enough to go through the hassle of buying a new Blu-ray player (from a specialty outlet), shopping overseas, dealing with currency conversion, waiting ~2 weeks for something to show up in the mail, etc.

It's a big country, lots of people are lazy, and it's not like there aren't enough domestic releases to fill up one's time.

Ordering from a non-US Amazon site works exactly the same way it does domestically, it automatically converts currency, shipping is usually between $6-12 (depending in where you order from), and my orders from Amazon uk, de, es, and fr all arrive more quickly than my domestic orders from importcds. As everyone else has pointed out, many great American classics are only available in other regions, and as far as I'm concerned, going region-free is a no-brainer.

TT's disc of The Fury will be an interesting test-case for the effect of Region B releases on the value of Sold Out titles. I would imagine that if Arrow's disc is as roundly superior as it's expected to be, it will certainly effect the resale price of the TT disc. It's unlikely that fans who missed out on the initial limited run will pay $70-100 to a scalper for a TT disc, when one can import a better version for less than $35. I also wouldn't be surprised if the hardcore DePalma fans who already own the TT version wanted to upgrade and dump the old disc, which could create a surplus in the retail market that drives down the price - perhaps even below it's initial retail value (if enough people upgrade). The way this plays out will tell us how large a portion of TT's base are region A locked, and might even effect the label's release decisions going forward. For instance, if the value of The Fury implodes upon Arrow's release, it might not be a great idea for the label to revisit Violent Saturday since most of us 'Internet diehards' interested in the film already own the Carlotta disc.

[Moe Dickstein]

I guess I'm just mind-blowingly ignorant but there have only been three things in my life I've ever felt compelled to import, and Rock Hunter is the only thing that would have required me to be region-free. I'm happy to wait for that one from Fox or TT or Criterion.

[matrixschmatrix]

Nobody's arguing that you have to go region free, but it's indisputable that there's a vast treasury of riches beyond the Region A borders, even if you're limiting yourself to English language films, which extends far beyond getting things cheaper. Whether you personally feel any compulsion to explore those riches isn't really debatable, but casually dismissing them is obviously going to raise hackles on a board which a large and active population that doesn't actually uh live in Region A.

[Moe Dickstein]

Yes, but the question was not about members of this forum, but rather something akin to "who in their right minds constitute the TT customer base". I very deliberately stated that my reasoning for my answer applied to basically nobody on here.

[knives]

But your reasoning remains false. You stated that it was for people who only had interest in english language films and thus didn't need to go region free. It has been proven to you in a multitude of ways that that statement is false.

[Moe Dickstein]

It wasn't that black and white, my point was that the vast majority of RA/1 consumers are well served by R1/A releases, and don't have a burning need to look outside those borders. That is not the case around here but there are a lot of people not on here who it does apply to. I still have to explain what Criterion is to most people who aren't savvy to this stuff like say the people that care enough to come to an online forum to post and read about it.

[knives]

I imagine though for someone to be knowledgeable enough to know who TT are, want to buy their (blu-ray product), and know where to do the purchasing are at least savvy enough to know who Criterion are.

[Moe Dickstein]

Perhaps, but since you can just search for the movie on Amazon and it comes up, aside from the high price there you'd never even know that what you were buying was TT. That happened to my boss when he wanted "The Kremlin Letter" after seeing it on TCM. No idea who they were (that was their debut release) but all we found was the oddly high priced listing on Amazon, but he wanted it so he got it. Didn't learn about SAE and the whole business of TT until months later.

[bugsy_pal]

Nobody's arguing that you have to go region free, but it's indisputable that there's a vast treasury of riches beyond the Region A borders, even if you're limiting yourself to English language films, which extends far beyond getting things cheaper. Whether you personally feel any compulsion to explore those riches isn't really debatable, but casually dismissing them is obviously going to raise hackles on a board which a large and active population that doesn't actually uh live in Region A.

Agreed. As an Australian, I had to go region-free in order to watch Criterion blus. I'm also able to watch Twilight Time releases, of which I have a few. I have 2 region-free players - a Panasonic that I paid to get chipped (as much as the cost of the player) and a more recent Oppo that plays anything and everything. I guess it's probably easy to ignore the need for a region-free player in the US - but I've collected a substantial number of Masters of Cinema blurays which are usually the definitive editions. Shipping costs and waiting to receive discs in the post are a part of life if you want the best. Then there are cheap locally available discs that I can get of titles that Twilight Time offer - I can get Sleepless in Seattle and Philadelphia, for example (if I was so inclined) for about $10 each. The other day I picked up Preminger's Exodus on blu for about $12, which I don't think has yet been released outside of Oz. There are great benefits to being region-free, for the discerning buyer.

[domino harvey]

Moe, there will always be a market for selling overpriced things to people who don't know better. I know I've already posted about this recently, but it still blows my mind that there's a set of PD movies that would run you maybe $10 tops anywhere else online being sold by Time Life for $99. There will also be a market for the discriminating cineaste. And a market for everything in-between. Twilight Time's model is catch as catch can-- the answer to my rhetorical question is that there is no intended audience, which explains their all over the map releases. I don't think it's a problem and if you go back to the beginnings of the Twilight Time thread you'll find I was one of the few defenders of the label when the mood turned really south here a while back, but you can't go around acting like a Venn diagram of TT customers and region-free cinema lovers is two circles that don't touch

[Moe Dickstein]

The only tweak I'd make to what you say is that there are the titles that the label was started to get out there, and the others that are the ones that seem to be off brand, which were requests by the licensing studios for them to release.

I don't mean to suggest the circles don't overlap, merely that people seem to overly discount those outside the cineaste circle. That's all

[R0lf]

Agreed. As an Australian, I had to go region-free in order to watch Criterion blus. I'm also able to watch Twilight Time releases, of which I have a few. I have 2 region-free players - a Panasonic that I paid to get chipped (as much as the cost of the player) and a more recent Oppo that plays anything and everything. I guess it's probably easy to ignore the need for a region-free player in the US - but I've collected a substantial number of Masters of Cinema blurays which are usually the definitive editions. Shipping costs and waiting to receive discs in the post are a part of life if you want the best. Then there are cheap locally available discs that I can get of titles that Twilight Time offer - I can get Sleepless in Seattle and Philadelphia, for example (if I was so inclined) for about $10 each. The other day I picked up Preminger's Exodus on blu for about $12, which I don't think has yet been released outside of Oz. There are great benefits to being region-free, for the discerning buyer.

And going region free is exceptionally easy for any Australian considering that most $50 no name brand blu ray players you can pick up from places like Big W allow you to change region back and forth. I can only imagine it must be harder in other countries than it is here?

[knives]

Yes, due to some differing laws.

[bugsy_pal]

Agreed. As an Australian, I had to go region-free in order to watch Criterion blus. I'm also able to watch Twilight Time releases, of which I have a few. I have 2 region-free players - a Panasonic that I paid to get chipped (as much as the cost of the player) and a more recent Oppo that plays anything and everything. I guess it's probably easy to ignore the need for a region-free player in the US - but I've collected a substantial number of Masters of Cinema blurays which are usually the definitive editions. Shipping costs and waiting to receive discs in the post are a part of life if you want the best. Then there are cheap locally available discs that I can get of titles that Twilight Time offer - I can get Sleepless in Seattle and Philadelphia, for example (if I was so inclined) for about $10 each. The other day I picked up Preminger's Exodus on blu for about $12, which I don't think has yet been released outside of Oz. There are great benefits to being region-free, for the discerning buyer.

And going region free is exceptionally easy for any Australian considering that most $50 no name brand blu ray players you can pick up from places like Big W allow you to change region back and forth. I can only imagine it must be harder in other countries than it is here?

Yes, I believe it can be done very cheaply here in Oz - although I didn't go down that route. I got my Panasonic chipped before I ever new about the super-cheap region-free options, then I bought an Oppo to replace my defunct Sony SACD player, which had the added benefit of being a brilliant bluray player.

[zedz]

(in fact all of my Spanish purchases beyond one boxset have been for studio pictures)

Way off topic, but two words for you: Pere Portabella.

[zedz]

I imagine though for someone to be knowledgeable enough to know who TT are, want to buy their (blu-ray product), and know where to do the purchasing are at least savvy enough to know who Criterion are.

Anyway, isn't it vastly simpler for an American consumer to buy, say, an MoC or BFI disc from Amazon.uk than it is to buy anything at all from Twilight Time? (Of course, for non-US customers, the gulf of difficulty is exponentially greater.)

[Moe Dickstein]

No, because so long as you don't care about the extra $5 markup you can get TT discs straight from Amazon.

[knives]

(in fact all of my Spanish purchases beyond one boxset have been for studio pictures)

Way off topic, but two words for you: Pere Portabella.

I literally had it in my cart for about a week before it disappeared. I really want to watch Cuadecuc, Vampir.

[MichaelB]

No, because so long as you don't care about the extra $5 markup you can get TT discs straight from Amazon.

You forgot to factor in the high likelihood of Customs import charges (plus compulsory £8 "handling fee) if you go down that route. I know people who've ended up paying close to £50 ($75) for TT discs - including, in one particularly tragic case, a copy of The Fury a couple of weeks before Arrow's announcement.

Which is why I don't own any TT discs myself.

[Moe Dickstein]

I was referring to US customers.

[EddieLarkin]

If that's the only reason Michael, then you and other UK users may find the following worth repeating:

All SAE packages to the UK that are 4 items or fewer are marked under the customs limit, as all individual items are invoiced as $5. All of my packages have arrived this way, with no resulting customs fees.

If anyone has got hit with charges, it's almost certainly due to them selecting insured delivery, which for purposes of the insurance, have to be marked at true value. Their insurance is unnecessary and a rip off anyway, so people should avoid this option.

I've never paid more than £24 for a single TT title, and that's when buying singly. With bulk purchases (2 to 4) it's more like £21, and my last two orders averaged out to £18 for each item as I got a free title with both orders (from their last two promotions).

[MichaelB]

I've never paid more than £24 for a single TT title, and that's when buying singly. With bulk purchases (2 to 4) it's more like £21, and my last two orders averaged out to £18 for each item as I got a free title with both orders (from their last two promotions).

That's still not a particularly powerful incentive - I try not to pay more than that for stacked Criterions, never mind virtually barebones discs!

[EddieLarkin]

True, it's not exactly a great price for any disc, but it's a much better situation than the idea that UK buyers have no option but to pay £50 a pop. If that was the case I wouldn't have a single TT title.

Just for the record, although a lot of their earlier titles are bare bones (which is were this impression comes from), most recent releases have a decent amount of supplements, including a few that are veritably stacked. Take a look at Our Man Flint, In Like Flint, Christine, Lost Horizon, Blue Lagoon, Love Is a Many Splendored Thing or Major Dundee. And for The Disappearance, TT actually produced their own supplements (shocking, I know)!

[FrauBlucher]

Interview with Nick Redman.