Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

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pointless
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:55 am

Re: Twilight Time

#501 Post by pointless » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:33 pm

FrauBlucher wrote:Interview with Nick Redman.
Interesting bits include a four title per month minimum starting in 2014, and sometimes five per month. The MGM/UA deal stipulates two titles a month from them.

The 3000 units per title has nothing to do with artist’s residuals but just a number chosen to match that the known safe target number for movie soundtrack releases.
Last edited by pointless on Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#502 Post by captveg » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:46 pm

LOL - my pointing out of stats on HTF for catalog titles re: Warner vs. Fox got brought up. Sorry if Jason X is not old enough to be considered a catalog title to some, but my point was that to the STUDIO it is (heck - the upcoming Director's Cut of Argo is now considered a catalog title), and is likely to sell far better than many other deep catalog titles that I would certainly rather own, too.

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Moe Dickstein
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:19 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#503 Post by Moe Dickstein » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:36 pm

I think the bigger difference is, are Par titles included in the WB count?

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warren oates
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#504 Post by warren oates » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:00 pm

pointless wrote:The 3000 units per title has nothing to do with artist’s residuals but just a number chosen to match that the known safe target number for movie soundtrack releases.
Which is basically an admission that they pulled this arbitrary so-called "break even" number of 3,000 out of their collective butts. Since when does the soundtrack collector market from 10-15 years ago graph onto to the present day DVD/Blu-ray collector market now in any kind of 1:1 ratio? They've done zero market research on that number. And hopefully they'll be open to rethinking it as they continue to get bigger, increase their access to more popular titles and their available capital.

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#505 Post by captveg » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:42 pm

Moe Dickstein wrote:I think the bigger difference is, are Par titles included in the WB count?
Of course. But those still take resources and time for WB to author the discs. The WB catalog group took on the responsibility of 80+ titles, while Fox took on the responsibility of half of that. Fox was very heavy on 40s-60s releases this year, while Warner was heavier with 70s-80s, but this also disregards that in prior years Fox released very few 40s-60s titles while Warner did.

My point wasn't to criticize Fox - far from it - but to defend WB, which has released about the same # of titles per year for a few years now. I'm not gonna buy the Friday the 13th films, but. I completely understand there are a lot of horror fans who will, so releasing those films from the catalog holdings over, say, The Sea Hawk makes sense, though I certainly would love the latter.

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Moe Dickstein
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:19 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#506 Post by Moe Dickstein » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:08 am

Most of those were reissues so no they didn't take the same resources to put together.

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#507 Post by captveg » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:59 am

Moe Dickstein wrote:Most of those were reissues so no they didn't take the same resources to put together.
See, that's the kind of incorrect statement I'm trying to fight with the facts. Most of them were not re-issues (unless one considers titles going from DVD to Blu-ray as "reissues", which I don't, because if that was the case 99% of Fox's releases would be "reissues". Or if one considers repackaging of the same discs - such as the bringing back into print the OOP Paramount titles - which I don't).

By my count, 65 new-to-Blu titles and 9 reissues (3 of these had new video encode or new lossless audio, or both; 1 was a newly authored disc but the feature was the same; 1 is the 3D Wizard of Oz, and the other 4 are TBD if anything is upgraded with the feature disc as they have yet to be released).

9/74 = 12%, which is hardly "most"

Even if one stuck to just the 65 titles, that's still 5+ titles a month. (Of the 65, 24 are Paramount licensed titles and 2 are Samuel Goldwyn licensed titles). They also had another 3 new-to-Blu titles from Criterion and Warner Archive.

Fox has released/announced 38 new-to-Blu titles this year, and they've licensed out another 42 to Criterion, Twilight Time, Anchor Bay and Shout Factory.

80 (Fox) vs. 68 (WB) is not that far off, and they are both still well in advance of the other major studio catalog rights holders. And while it's easy to point to Jason X and mock Warner, Fox's contribution includes titles like Stuck on You and Wing Commander, so cherry picking which titles are "worthy" catalog releases is very open to subjective taste.

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Moe Dickstein
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:19 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#508 Post by Moe Dickstein » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:04 am

Yeah I was counting back from OOP stuff as retreads. It's been released. What is the WB percentage of their own material from previous years to this year? Why license so much from Par when you let your own titles languish to do it. I would think if they wanted to add that material they should add staff and output to do it not replace their own product with it, that's more my concern.

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kingofthejungle
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:25 am

Re: Twilight Time

#509 Post by kingofthejungle » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:52 am

So, the limited edition model is pitched as a way to keep things simple for the studios, and while I'm sure that it does make things incredibly easy for them -- is it really that necessary? In addition to Shout Factory, European Boutique labels like Carlotta, Koch Media, Sidonis, and Ascot Entertainment have licensed films from Fox and MGM, and released them in unlimited quantities at a lower price than TT does - and they also include extras. Perhaps the situation is different with Sony, but their deal with Mill Creek makes me suspect that a more reasonable scenario is possible there, too.

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#510 Post by captveg » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:40 pm

Moe Dickstein wrote:Yeah I was counting back from OOP stuff as retreads. It's been released.
Well, that stuff is simply putting in the order to recreate the run of material (discs/packaging). All the studios do it all the time with little fanfare. It only becomes noticeable when the distributor changes, like Warner picking up Paramount or Miramax titles going from Disney to Lionsgate or Echo Bridge. That seems like a biased standard to me, and has little to nothing to do with the studio's catalog home video release efforts, so why count it?
Moe Dickstein wrote:What is the WB percentage of their own material from previous years to this year?
Give me a little time on filmaf.com and I can put up the complete new-to-Blu WB US release history.

EDIT: Here ya go -

2006 - 18
2007 - 40
2008 - 48
2009 - 62
2010 - 65
2011 - 54
2012 - 73 (2 licensed from Samuel Goldwyn, 2 released through Warner Archive)
2013 - 68 (24 licensed from Paramount, 2 licensed from Samuel Goldwyn, 2 released through Warner Archive, 1 released through Criterion)
Moe Dickstein wrote:Why license so much from Par when you let your own titles languish to do it. I would think if they wanted to add that material they should add staff and output to do it not replace their own product with it, that's more my concern.
I think they figure the cost to license and sell Terms of Endearment and Shane is a nice supplement to their own remastering and marketing efforts on their own titles. Especially since as Joe Public is concerned Warner has exhausted their "evergreen" catalog titles on Blu-ray at this point (which is why they are re-issuing these evergreen titles like The Wizard of Oz and The Exorcist - they always sell, and they always will).

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Moe Dickstein
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Re: Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Olive Films

#511 Post by Moe Dickstein » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:16 pm

So that proves what I was talking about, if you take out Par and Goldwyn, that's 42 of their own titles, which is the lowest since 2007.

You also talk about them doing big titles from Par, of course (and did WB distribute Shane? I thought Par held that one themselves to release) But the problem is at this point they should start going deeper into their catalog not stagnate on "big" releases. Thats why people are frustrated - especially since they are the only ones (with only one exception to date) who won't license out titles they don't want to do to third party companies.

Might I suggest that we amend the name of this thread to "Boutique Label Business Models" or something like that since we've grown out of just discussing TT and Olive here...

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Re: Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Olive Films

#512 Post by captveg » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:37 pm

Moe Dickstein wrote:So that proves what I was talking about, if you take out Par and Goldwyn, that's 42 of their own titles, which is the lowest since 2007.
Yes, but Warner is responsible for all programming of the disc, which inevitably takes up their manpower/resources for disc authoring. Plus, the Paramount license is for 3 years, so it makes sense that Warner would look to prioritize a good portion of Paramount titles.
Moe Dickstein wrote:You also talk about them doing big titles from Par, of course (and did WB distribute Shane? I thought Par held that one themselves to release) But the problem is at this point they should start going deeper into their catalog not stagnate on "big" releases. Thats why people are frustrated - especially since they are the only ones (with only one exception to date) who won't license out titles they don't want to do to third party companies.
Yes, WB distributed Shane.

I also think their plan is for the Warner Archive to be their "3rd party" distribution business model, but things have clearly not gone as planned in their original WA Blu-ray press release.

I get people's frustration, but a lot of it comes from misinformation. 2012 was Warner's biggest year for catalog releases, even if one takes away the 2 Samuel Goldwyn titles. People were complaining about Warner's catalog output long before 2012.
Moe Dickstein wrote:Might I suggest that we amend the name of this thread to "Boutique Label Business Models" or something like that since we've grown out of just discussing TT and Olive here...
Good call.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Twilight Time

#513 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:22 pm


Erhen
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:35 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#514 Post by Erhen » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:09 am

Having met Mr. Redman, I can tell you that is nothing LOL. IMHO, his partner is the class act in that partnership.

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Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#515 Post by Gregory » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:14 am

The Bits column was posted when it came out last month and is in the Business Models thread, which is where this kind of discussion should get posted when there's anything new to say.
EDIT: I see it's now been moved here.
Last edited by Gregory on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NABOB OF NOWHERE
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:30 pm
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Re: Twilight Time

#516 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:03 am

Before this thread gets split I just want to say that that host the sycophantic slime Dick Wad makes Fox News seem like Ed Murrow.

Erhen
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:35 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#517 Post by Erhen » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:21 pm

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:Before this thread gets split I just want to say that that host the sycophantic slime Dick Wad makes Fox News seem like Ed Murrow.
And that's no doubt exactly why Mr. Redman consented to be interviewed by him.

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Cash Flagg
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#518 Post by Cash Flagg » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:57 am

From the Blu-ray.com TT thread:
Jeffrey Kauffman wrote:To those who have posted here and sent me so many emails and PMs, here's what's going on in a nutshell: yes, Twilight Time has stopped sending screeners. Mr. Redman has had issues with the fact that (in his perception) so many people here (including some Mr. Redman felt were posting as "official" representatives of the site) post negative comments about his label.

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domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#519 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:59 am

Way to shoot yourself in the foot, Twilight Time!

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EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Twilight Time

#520 Post by EddieLarkin » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:37 pm

Vast majority of Blu-ray.com reviews for the label have been very praiseworthy, and more importantly, the caps are always full res and reliably representative of the disc (which cannot be said for most other places).

Very daft move.

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tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Twilight Time

#521 Post by tenia » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:55 pm

Usual move from stupid people that don't understand it won't stop reviews to be done anyway.
It reminds me : some months ago, Les Années Laser, quite a historically important French specialisez magazine on HT material and now BD reviews, started a petition to ask Warner to release The Hobbit on BD in France with a lossless French dub instead of their old DD encode.
What was Warner reaction ? They said they stopped any communication with Les Années Laser and would stop sending them screeners.
What did it change ? Nothing, except they looked for pure a-holes.

It won't do anything else to TT either.
Certainly, it also won't change some of their releases to get sold out. But it certainly won't help with negative comments.

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#522 Post by captveg » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:11 pm

I just think its hilarious how childish everyone is on the blu-ray.com forums regarding this company. It's why the studios have become completely mute about their releases - talking to the fans is just asking to get bit. Even Criterion refuses to engage their consumers unless on their own controlled terms.

If I think a Blu-ray product is worth owning at a price I find reasonable to purchase it at I buy it. The end. And on to the next business transaction between adults.

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tojoed
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Cambridge, England

Re: Twilight Time

#523 Post by tojoed » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:23 pm

Captveg = Nick Redman.

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domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#524 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:24 pm

To be fair, this thread has almost always been antagonistic towards the label. I held out as long as I could but man they're basically a joke, you know

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captveg
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Re: Twilight Time

#525 Post by captveg » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:43 pm

tojoed wrote:Captveg = Nick Redman.
Nope.

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