The War List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Mike_S]

Uncommon Valor (1983, Ted Kotcheff)

Because of the classy cast and the top-rank production values, it would be easy to claim that this is smarter than your average wish-fulfilment fantasy war movie in which the USA gets to fight the Vietnam War all over again, but to be honest it isn't. It's rampantly racist and often blatantly silly. But it seems better than virtually every other example of the MIA sub-genre because it's generally low-key and sometimes quite thoughtful about pain and loss. It does, of course, help a lot that Gene Hackman is the star, playing the hero in a naturalistic manner which undercuts some of the more unsubtle elements of the script. The supporting cast is also useful - a 1980s dream-team - Tim Thomerson, Reb Brown, Fred Ward, Patrick Swayze, and Randall "Tex" Cobb. Few cliches are left unturned, from the politicians trying to stop the mission to the tough old Vietnamese veteran and his high-kicking daughters. But it works and the not-entirely happy ending is a bonus.

Under Fire (1983, Roger Spottiswoode)

More Gene-o in a considerably more subtle and intelligent film which deals with the Nicaraguan revolution from the point of view of a team of journalists led by Mr H, Nick Nolte and the divine (and perpetually underused) Joanna Cassidy. Loosely based on real events, it has an immediacy which is quite alarming, largely provided by the stunning photography and lighting of John Alcott. I liked the political elements of the film - Rene Enriquez is believably useless as Somoza - and the cynicism provided by Ed Harris' mercenary and Richard Masur's stringer. The sub-plot involving Jean-Louis Trintignant is underdeveloped, and tends to bring along unflattering comparisons to Costa-Gavras, but the film as a whole, despite some slightly naive politics, is a truthful look at a convincingly messy triangular relationship and a disastrous military situation. I think it's my favourite of the spate of Hollywood Central America movies of the period, although Missing runs it a close second and I think James Woods' performance in Salvador is a triumph.

[bamwc2]

Did you watch the film or the 6-part mini-series of Das Boot?

It was the director's cut of the theatrical release, and was nowhere near the length of a six-par miniseries unless they were broken into half an hour blocks.

[Mike_S]

While I'm on the subject of Mr Hackman, I also watched

A Bridge Too Far (1977, Richard Attenborough)

For those of us who are tempted to think that Gene can do no wrong, it's salutary to be reminded of his atrocious performance in this epic account of the disastrous Operation Market Garden of 1944. Saddled with a ludicrous accent, he seems to be wishing himself out of every scene and tends to just fade into the background between rounds of pronouncing lines like "General Browning, what of the Germans" with hard Gs. Otherwise, I think this is the best of Attenborough's blockbusters - his finest film is Shadowlands which is in a completely different key - for two reasons; because William Goldman's script is a miracle of organisation and compression; and because Attenborough manages to focus in on the essential tragedy of the events and finishes with a fine scene of confrontation and essential failure of communication between front-line soldier and General. The star-in-every-scene strategy is distracting and silly, although it's only fair to point out that some of them - Anthony Hopkins, Edward Fox, Dirk Bogarde - are very good indeed while others - Redford, Michael Caine, James Caan - aren't really given much to do.

[domino harvey]

the Man Who Never Was (Ronald Neame 1955) The potentially interesting story of how the Allies tricked Germans into thinking an invasion of Greece was forthcoming via a phony corpse is somehow stretched out beyond the ten minutes or so max this story would need to be told, and the result is a sluggish, never-ending dull-fest of prim and proper Brit military members agonizing over every minute detail, and not with the attention one finds in a good procedural but with the flailing panic of "How do we make this a feature length film without adding anything interesting?" Well,



Midway (Jack Smight 1976) I've pretty well had my fill of polite post-war WWII pics like this, though my unwatched bushels are filled with plenty more regardless. Featuring Charlton Heston and a bunch of "names" who don't do much, including Henry Fonda, who was in the similarly pointless Battle of the Bulge, all maneuvering around the story of the Battle of Midway, told respectfully and, especially in the case of the Japanese, without anything approaching flavor. The film's gimmick is that it incorporates as much actual footage of Midway into the action, but this only proves a distraction, especially on Blu-ray where the disconnect between sources becomes stronger than ever.

Up in Arms (Elliott Nugent 1944) You know, I'd always assumed I liked Danny Kaye, but I forgot within minutes of this, his first film and the one that made him a star. Kaye's performance as a nebbish drafted into the war is so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so ANNOYING that I started counting the number of times I nearly shut it off, as the threat of breaking my perfect record of sitting through anything has never faced a more serious challenge than Kaye's INTERMINABLE mugging and flibbertigibbet mannerisms, which are frequently utilized in musical numbers that are unimaginatively staged, overlong, and, well, let me stress this again, annoying. Eight, by the way.

[colinr0380]

Did you watch the film or the 6-part mini-series of Das Boot?

It was the director's cut of the theatrical release, and was nowhere near the length of a six-par miniseries unless they were broken into half an hour blocks.

As far as I remember each episode was 50 minutes (the first episode only took events up to the U-boat leaving the dock!), so it sounds as if there might be a bit of extra material in the mini-series, 84 minutes worth on comparing the director's cut with the mini-series run times on imdb, which might help to stretch out events and make them feel even more tense! Although knock off around 15-20 minutes in total for the opening and ending credits of each episode and the recaps.

[domino harvey]

Well, it was Memorial Day Weekend, so I hope y'all did some viewing for this List Project out of patriotic duty

Big Jim McLain (Edward Ludwig 1952) I willing admit that this film is remarkably stupid in its politics and had the shelf life of bananas thanks to featuring a full-throated defense of HUAC, complete with regurgitated talking points and half-hearted defenses of the Constitution in the light of the Red Scare. However, it's a good stupid film, remarkably entertaining and well-made. John Wayne is a HUAC investigator sent to scenic Hawaii to ferret out potential Commies and along the way he charmlessly picks up Nancy Olson and the two develop a juvenile courtship (some of their dialog is so overwritten and cute that you'll want to go Red just to spite the happy couple). There's some funny moments with Wayne entertaining a brash bottle-blond landlady who keeps throwing herself at the Duke, and Hans Conried has an amusing scene wherein he gives information to the HUAC workers of questionable legitimacy (at one point he brags that his father holds the patent on air). As long as you know what you're getting into, you might be surprised at how enjoyable a film this wrongheaded could be. So, somewhat perversely, recommended!

Oh! What a Lovely War (Richard Attenborough 1969) An odd film, wherein Britain's involvement in the first world war is reenacted via vignettes staged on a boardwalk carnival (though like Olivier's Henry V, the high-concept is eventually fleshed out with more conventional bits as it goes on), with the action often intercut with musical numbers derived from actual songs of the period. It's an audacious concept, and Attenborough initially exhibits a strong visual wit to bolster audience confidence it can be pulled off. But like the war itself, this thing just keeps going and going and doesn't turn out to have much else to offer other than the one clever conceptual idea repeated over and over to diminishing results. At eighty minutes or so, this might have been an interesting experiment, but at two and a half hours, it's just too much. I was impressed with the final shot, though not enough to forget I'd been counting down the clock for a while leading up to it.

Reunion in France (Jules Dassin 1942) The set-up to this one sounds pretty dreadful in terms of casting alone: Joan Crawford paired off with… John Wayne?! However, somewhat surprisingly, this turned out to be a lovely sample of wartime intrigue, with Crawford as a spoiled French loyalist (no accent attempted, natch) who leaves the country right before the Germans invade and returns to find her fiance's become a turncoat Nazi sympathizer. Speaking of casting, you know you're in for a good time when John Carradine is cast as a Gestapo head! I kept waiting to hate this since the Crawford/Wayne pairing is scientifically flawed, but I never did, and the film also has a nifty and significant twist near the end that fooled me quite effectively. Recommended!

[bamwc2]

BFI's list of 10 great WWI films

[colinr0380]

No Wooden Crosses = No sale

[bamwc2]

Viewing Log:

God on Trial (Andy De Emmony, 2008): Rupert Graves and Dominic Cooper headline a cast of mostly unknowns in this Masterpiece Theater dramatization actual events inside Auschwitz, where a group of Jewish prisoners convene a Rabbinical trial, charging God with breach of contract. As the Torah says, under God's covenant with the children of Israel, he will always protect them. Does the Holocaust constitute a breach of this promise? There is some interesting theological and philosophical debate here, but much of what is said sounds like bullet points from a lecture on the problem of evil shoehorned into stilted dialogue. The film works best focusing on the lives of the condemned. One father's discussion of his three boys is absolutely heartbreaking. It's a close call, but I'm giving it a thumbs down.

The Long Gray Line (John Ford, 1955): Tyrone Power lays the on a thick Irish accent in his portrayal of Martin 'Marty' Maher, in John Ford's tribute to the true story of a man who went from immigrant NCO to perhaps the most beloved man at West Point during his fifty years there. Anchoring Marty through this journey is his wife Mary (Maureen O'Hara) and an assortment of cadets (including Eisenhower, Bradley and a few less famous names whose passing deeply effected Maher's life). Power doesn't strike me as the best choice for the role, though he did give it his all. The film itself is another of Ford's many encomium's to the US armed services and as such the dramatic potential is handcuffed by his desire to make everyone look like a hero. Still even as one of Ford's mid-level works there's barely enough here for a very mild recommendation.

Oh! What a Lovely War (Richard Attenborough, 1969): Domino beat me to this one earlier on this page and much to my surprise, we're in complete agreement! There's some great ideas brewing here, but Attenborough keeps rehashing them until they die an unnatural death. I did enjoy the many deserved swipes at the idiotic sentiments that sent many a young man to his grave. Other than that, I'm out of kind words.

The Quiller Memorandum (Michael Anderson, 1966): George Segal stars as Quiller an American spy tasked by British intelligence with uncovering a West German neo-Nazi ring. Alec Guinness does a great job as Pol, Quiller's handler, as does Max von Sydow who plays the charming, but villainous Oktober. Senta Berger rounds out the cast as Inge, a school teacher who's romantic interest in Quiller may have more going on than meets the eye. Overall, it's a superb Cold War era thriller with outstanding performances from all of its leads. Segal in particular is the real standout, though, giving a performance that nearly lifts the film to greatness.

The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle (1939, H.C. Potter): Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers star in this telling of the life and times of a husband and wife dance team that became national celebrities in the early days of the twentieth century. Like all of their other films, there's a good deal of charming song and dance numbers with the duo playing to their strengths. It's quite a charming film, until it reaches its third act where Vernon gives up his fame and fortune to fight in WWI. The film then turns deathly serious as Irene spends her time entertaining the Allie troops and praying for her husband's safe return as he keeps getting by, by the skin of his teeth. It's far from their best film together, but it's still a decent enough entry from Potter.

[domino harvey]

It's too bad you didn't get more out of God on Trial, which will definitely be making my list-- Sure, it's theatrical and talk-y, but it works for the material and I think the climactic argument put forth is a real gut-punch of an answer to the film's premise. If you want more Fred Astaire military hijinx, there's always You'll Never Get Rich (the lesser of the two Astaire/Hayworth pics)

[knives]

I haven't seen it so I don't know how much it differs from description, but theologically that description doesn't work.

[domino harvey]

He's being a little glib in his summation: Some Jewish Holocaust camp members waiting for the gas accuse God of breaking his covenant with the "chosen people" and an impromptu tribunal is culled and carried out as a way of dealing with the events, with the victims coming down on all sides of the argument

[knives]

That and the Wiesel play sound more right. It's on youtube, so I suppose that's the best way to decide.

[domino harvey]

The Wiesel work of the same name is actually its own thing and not related, I believe

[bamwc2]

He's being a little glib in his summation

I wasn't trying to be. Is it the reference to "breach of contract?" If so, one of the characters cites the prosecution of God in those very terms early on in the film.

[domino harvey]

I didn't mean anything by it!



(Google Image Search result for "Cool gif")

[knives]

The Wiesel work of the same name is actually its own thing and not related, I believe

Wiki at least cites it as an inspiration. The ending of that one seems more even keeled to the theology. As to Bamwc2, my concern by your description doesn't have to do with the breach of contract in itself, Judaism is a very contractually based religion, but rather that genocide is ipsofacto a breach of contract. The breach would be more concerned with the punishment clause as evidenced with the Shoftim and the temple destructions. The question would then be if the Jews of Europe breached the contract in a way to allow for a penality or if god would be wrong in his exercising of that clause.

[domino harvey]

I think you should definitely see the film, knives

[bamwc2]

Knives, all of that is discussed in the film.

[knives]

And sold. Will probably watch during dinner.

[knives]

And what an amazing experience (if not much of a war film until the final monologue in camp). The film provides a lot of questions that have been puzzled over for longer than its subject has existed and fortunately admits to not knowing any better than anyone else. That's where I think the stage bound television nature of the film works where a flashier style might fail. It's a court case looking for the right questions since the answers are presumably available (we're all going to die and god is at the head of it). That's why this Hitchhiker's Guide type quandary is so damned effective. Because this genocide has extraordinarily different implications depending on where you stand. That the guilt of god is not reason to give up on Minchah especially during what is going on functions as a contradiction, apology, and refutation amongst other really bizarre things. In that respect I was deeply reminded of Rashomon which is definitely where the Judge's ascribed speech is coming from. So because of the brazen inability to answer anything it makes, for me, the questioning actually worth it. Or something like that. After the film's Sophie's not choice I was probably in too emotional a mood.

[DarkImbecile]

As someone who A) discovered the forum relatively recently, B) has yet to dig around the forum as much as I would have liked due to having a toddler and a 60-hour-per-week non-film-related job, and C) is exactly the kind of borderline obsessive compulsive completist to already have made exactly the kind of lists this project requires, I have a few questions for anyone out there:

1.) Is there a reason new posts in the list projects section don't show up on Recent Forum Activity section on the main page? I would have found this and the 1980s list project quite a bit sooner if they had, and I imagine I'm not alone among those more casual users who scan the front page for updates to topics of interest. If that's the case, there'd probably be even more vigorous discussion and submissions, right?

2.) This is more general, but speaking of participation, in looking at the earlier lists, it appears that there once were quite a few more members regularly engaged in the process; has there been some kind of purge or exodus from this site/project in the last 3 or 4 years about which a newbie would be ignorant? Or I am I just imagining things?

3.) Please tell me there will eventually be another cycle of voting on genre lists, and that I won't just be revising my Noir and Horror lists for my own sad and lonely amusement.

[domino harvey]

1.) Is there a reason new posts in the list projects section don't show up on Recent Forum Activity section on the main page? I would have found this and the 1980s list project quite a bit sooner if they had, and I imagine I'm not alone among those more casual users who scan the front page for updates to topics of interest. If that's the case, there'd probably be even more vigorous discussion and submissions, right?

That's a good question but above my Mod payscale. I think Chris or Matt could answer, but I agree, I don't see why this subforum should be excluded from the feature while the newer Film Club one isn't.

2.) This is more general, but speaking of participation, in looking at the earlier lists, it appears that there once were quite a few more members regularly engaged in the process; has there been some kind of purge or exodus from this site/project in the last 3 or 4 years about which a newbie would be ignorant? Or I am I just imagining things?

Well, some people vote without contributing to the threads, and vice versa, but the last couple genre lists haven't garnered nearly as much attention as Noir, Westerns, and Horror did-- but these are also somewhat more niche genres as well. If you want to see more contributions, contribute!

3.) Please tell me there will eventually be another cycle of voting on genre lists, and that I won't just be revising my Noir and Horror lists for my own sad and lonely amusement.

I haven't decided yet, and won't need to for a while. So, I don't know. But you can always contribute to the threads long after the list's been finalized-- that's pretty much like 10% of my total posting contribution to the board!

[DarkImbecile]

If you want to see more contributions, contribute!

Sir, yes, sir! /snaps to attention

[PillowRock]

Midway (Jack Smight 1976) The film's gimmick is that it incorporates as much actual footage of Midway into the action

I remember seeing this in a theater during initial release. I also specifically remember this movie being in the neighboring auditorium when I was seeing something else (though I don't recall exactly what that "something else" was, off the top of my head).

Midway's gimmick was not the actual footage. Midway's gimmick was "sensurround" (not that sensurround would be available in home theater media).