Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

Discuss internationally-released DVDs and Blu-rays or other international DVD and Blu-ray-related topics.
Message
Author
mhofmann
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#51 Post by mhofmann » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:06 pm

True. I don't understand how anyone can produce work like this and be truly happy with the color balance and the black levels. Which happen to be utterly terrible throughout the Serpico 4K restoration; I watched the Blu-ray last night. (At times I felt very closely reminded of the 'Manila in the Claws of Light' color scheme... restored by guess who.)

As it stands, there's just no way to convince me this was intentional as per the original cinematography. And it's not just a direct comparison to previous masters/restorations (like the MoC Blu-ray in the example I linked to) or claiming that previous gradings were too magenta. The picture of the new Serpico restoration stands out like a sore thumb to anyone who's not color-blind, to be a bit facetious.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#52 Post by tenia » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:47 pm

I wonder more and more how things will change all the sudden in Europe the day 2 persons will retire.
mhofmann wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:06 pm
And it's not just a direct comparison to previous masters/restorations (like the MoC Blu-ray in the example I linked to) or claiming that previous gradings were too magenta.
It never is. It's just trading an issue for a new one.
Last edited by tenia on Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#53 Post by tenia » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:17 pm

You can also add Alain Cavalier's Thérèse to the ECU.

User avatar
Fiery Angel
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:59 pm

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#54 Post by Fiery Angel » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:20 pm

that's sad to hear

Stefan Andersson
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#55 Post by Stefan Andersson » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:02 pm

Discussion of Le Cercle Rouge (Studio Canal 4K, Criterion,Studio Canal 2010), in French, with relevant quotes from Team Deakins podcast and links to captures:
https://www.dvdclassik.com/forum/viewto ... 22&t=39301

User avatar
jsteffe
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#56 Post by jsteffe » Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:36 pm

Stefan Andersson wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:02 pm
Discussion of Le Cercle Rouge (Studio Canal 4K, Criterion,Studio Canal 2010), in French, with relevant quotes from Team Deakins podcast and links to captures:
https://www.dvdclassik.com/forum/viewto ... 22&t=39301
tenia, could you summarize your impressions of the Le Cercle Rouge UHD disc here for us?

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#57 Post by tenia » Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:50 pm

I still have to see the BD. I'm not equipped in 4k and Canal mistakenly sent me the UHD screeners rather than the BD screeners so I still haven't been able to access it. Basee on what I saw, especially the BD caps from Svet in his review (and not his downconverted caps), I think it's warmer and a tad more colorful than what others would have done but I don't see anything horrifying like I saw on Serpico.

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#58 Post by hearthesilence » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:22 pm

Based on the one set of DVDBeaver caps, my personal preference for color is the 2010 Studio Canal. It's the only one where flesh tones look right...but of course, maybe they're not supposed to look true to life?

User avatar
jsteffe
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#59 Post by jsteffe » Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:13 pm

tenia wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:50 pm
I still have to see the BD. I'm not equipped in 4k and Canal mistakenly sent me the UHD screeners rather than the BD screeners so I still haven't been able to access it. Basee on what I saw, especially the BD caps from Svet in his review (and not his downconverted caps), I think it's warmer and a tad more colorful than what others would have done but I don't see anything horrifying like I saw on Serpico.
That was my impression too, looking at the caps - thanks!

mhofmann
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#60 Post by mhofmann » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:02 pm

jsteffe wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:13 pm
That was my impression too, looking at the caps - thanks!
Similar opinion here. Having seen the Blu-ray, and ignoring any potential color grading backstory, Le Cercle Rouge looks a bit on the warmer, overall grey-blue-brownish side, but still reasonably balanced. Black levels are quite decent (unlike a disaster a la Serpico) and the white point isn't shifted into awkward territory (as on, say, La religieuse).

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#61 Post by tenia » Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:21 am

Listing updated with the Chabrol, Serpico and Thérèse.

User avatar
movielocke
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#62 Post by movielocke » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:52 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:49 am
I honestly don't understand how such uniformly bad work could have become a de facto norm. :-(
It's an agglomeration of competing drifts (in different directions) from 80 years of film stock aging, developing chemistry changes, technology changes (in projection bulbs, projection reflectors, projection stocks not to mention a ban on indoor cigarette smoking), with interesting localization variances across the globe--in addition to the measurable changes in color temperature that can be documented there is the additional confounding effect of the much briefer and recent 20 years of anchoring expectations by consumers--but the images which consumers are anchored to was heavily limited by the severe color limitations of standard definition and later rec. 709. There's are additional confounding factors to that anchoring effect in the generational preferences for magenta by home video colorists employed in the early 2000s not to mention the severe financial and time and equipment limitations they were operating under before the DVD boom and then again after the DVD crash.

Starting from the assumption that it's ever been correct on home video is going to lead to a lot of people calling something new incorrect. Starting from the assumption its correct on aged prints is equally problematic. Trying to correct previous home video looks is going to make some customer mad. failing to correct previous home video looks is going to make some customer mad.

Basically, the yellow effect could be calculated by the =~800K shift to blue that happened when the industry switched from carbon arc to xenon projection. but this would only apply to that portion of film history. and the contra color shift (back to yellow) to correct things being too blue for decades is being applied across the board.

The cyan bias on the other hand could be an attempt to correct the magenta bias of the early 2000s, and in solving that problem they've simply gone too far in the other direction.

And this is setting aside the projection and print replication problems that were created by the multiplex booms of the 80s and 90s. Dim images most saw in skinflint theatres are going to privilege the blue side of the spectrum, anchoring memories further away from yellow. Additionally, color replication and fidelity) was pretty poor for fifth and sixth generation prints most people saw in theatres (color quality went down with each subsequent geneation, but many generations were necessary given the logistical limitations of striking 2000-3000 prints for simultaneous domestic release).

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#63 Post by tenia » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:02 am

Again, I recently saw vintage copies from movies from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, and none looked like the Ritrovata color-signature, and even less so like Eclair ones.

Also, I'm quite certain not many people unhappy with these signatures are regretting the older magenta-pushed gradings. It's not a question of comparing these looks and saying now it's different so it must be bad. It's a matter of having traded a structural signature (magenta pushing every movie and handling contrast in a certain uniform way) for another one (elevated black levels and either a dull yellow drift or a steely blue one). The access to digital tools like LUTs makes me think this actually is the core issue : the over-use of similar (maybe even identical) LUTs from movie to movie within the same lab, leading to the list I've compiled.

It's the Laughing Cow process : no matter what you input, the output is always pretty much the same.

This also means that whether you have a reference print and a technical referent doesn't matter anymore : the lab used will lead 95% of the obtained color grading anyway. Alain Cavalier might not have supervised the grading of Thérèse since having the movie restored and graded at Ritrovata, Hiventy or VDM rather than Eclair would have made a much bigger difference than his supervision.

The fact is reference prints weren't more or less accurate 7 years ago, but neither Eclair or Ritrovata were grading movies this way. And they won't be more or less accurate once their colorists will retire, but we'll probably see the disappearance of these gradings with their retirements (except of course if they train their successors to do it the same way).
movielocke wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:52 am
And this is setting aside the projection and print replication problems that were created by the multiplex booms of the 80s and 90s. Dim images most saw in skinflint theatres are going to privilege the blue side of the spectrum, anchoring memories further away from yellow. Additionally, color replication and fidelity was pretty poor for fifth and sixth generation prints most people saw in theatres (color quality went down with each subsequent geneation, but many generations were necessary given the logistical limitations of striking 2000-3000 prints for simultaneous domestic release).
Would prints of very different movies be poorly replicated and/or fading in very similar fashion, leading to differnt protographies now looking very similar ? Because that's what we're getting here : no matter what you input, the output is always about the same, while I doubt random issues in print replications or in fading prints would all lead to a similar look.

Remember also that everything we see from Ritrovata or Eclair could be completely mixed up if the rightholder would have just chosen the other lab for the restoration : Thérèse now looks the Eclair way, but they could very much look the Bruce Lee movies if the rightholder had chosen Ritrovata for the restoration and grading instead.

I understand where you're coming from with the reminders about the upstream variabilities, but downstream, the results are extremely bound to the lab chosen for the grading, so anything we see from these lab and deem "correct" is pretty much a matter of chance.

I'll try one day on a few select examples to show how a given movie would look if graded by the different labs (Eclair and Ritrovata in particular, but MPI and Paramount too would be neat, but I'm not an expert in Photoshop so it won't be easy - if somebody more expert there want to try, I'll be more than happy to supply screencaps).

User avatar
movielocke
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#64 Post by movielocke » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:35 pm

Yes the LUTs are the central problem, to some extent the LUTs are trying to correct things like the blue shift with xenon projection. And if you're watching vintage prints with a xenon bulb and reflector, you're getting about 800K more blue than the print was timed for.

iirc Ritrovita applies a LUT for their film-out deliverable but doesn't adjust LUTs for the deliverables for DCP, broadcast and home video color spaces, right? that always has struck me as a significant central problem.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#65 Post by tenia » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:26 pm

This is my understanding too, though I'm not entirely sure. I however wonder how/if applying this LUT can uniformise all those movies gradings if they're different before the LUT appliance, ie if this mistake would explain the issue, or if it's not the reason for applying it but how it's applied that is the issue (for instance, using similar LUTs from movie to movie).

mhofmann
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#66 Post by mhofmann » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:11 am

movielocke wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:35 pm
iirc Ritrovita applies a LUT for their film-out deliverable but doesn't adjust LUTs for the deliverables for DCP, broadcast and home video color spaces, right? that always has struck me as a significant central problem.
I have been wondering about similar things, but then again, Ritrovata for example have had years by now to grab some of the home Blu-ray releases off a shelf and say "wait a minute - we care about our restorations and something doesn't look right here," and that certainly hasn't happened. So unfortunately there's not a high likelihood of an undiscovered mistake here anymore, and I by now assume this is exactly how they want their output to look on consumer formats.

mhofmann
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#67 Post by mhofmann » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:52 am

The new Blu-ray release of Madame Claude has the very distinct Ritrovata look.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#68 Post by tenia » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:21 am

And Svet seemingly mixes up in his examples Eclair and Ritrovata, which have very different and distinct issues (though are probably part of the same larger kind of questionings).
At this point, he could have mentioned Fox Deluxe titles.

User avatar
Grand Wazoo
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:23 pm

Re: Ritrovata and Eclair Cinematic Universes

#69 Post by Grand Wazoo » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:00 am

Looks like we can add Djibril Diop Mambéty's Hyenas to the ECU based on the Kino blu.

Post Reply