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The Narrator Returns wrote:if you are that violently opposed to making discs of any kind?

But I'm not. I'm opposed to manufacturing and shipping discs that will never be used.
What if you couldn't by a large tv set without receiving a smaller one as a bonus? A hardback book without a paperback copy? A sofa without a comfy chair to go with it? If those bonus products were unwanted, wouldn't you say it was a waste of energy and resources?

Criterion now says: "No, you may not buy only the blu-ray disc, you must take the dvd too!"

dang wrote:Criterion now says: "No, you may not buy only the blu-ray disc, you must take the dvd too!"

Who cares? You pay absolutely nothing more for it, and that extra DVD can be very useful to people introducing films to friends who don't have a Blu-Ray player. The DVDs will be plenty used, don't worry about that.

Getting angry about this is like yelling at a store for giving you an extra coupon because that paper coupon wastes trees.

I just wanted to share my view (being a collector of Criterion and other worthy edition of Blu-Rays). Although I am not totally out of the shock, but I guess I will not mind having dual-format editions for the individual releases (assuming they will be in those regular 2-disc amaray cases like the ones for Heaven's Gate etc.). Sure, they are damn late to become dual, but what can we do, we can't change their business plan. They finally figured out how save some product money! Moreover, if I can have all those BFI and MoC dual-format editions, why not Criterion, after all it is my first love. So, I will stop thinking about what I am gonna do with the extra DVD disc! No, I don't watch films in my computer. Anyways, I am over it now!

What I am worried about are the box sets! I have no clue about these Zatoichi films. I love to do the "blind buy" experimentation every now and then without thinking about the outcome. So, I was getting interested about this box and I will buy it. But, there are two reasons now I am not gonna do my experiment with this set! First, the price of the box. I know it is cheap for 25 films, but not worth doing experiment (the shape of the box is playing a factor too...I never bought any out of shape box set, I just don't like them!!! Oh, I keep forgetting, we are having a baby in Dec...). Second reason, now there are 19 extra DVDs! What am I supposed to do with them. So, I guess that is definitely space consuming.

I am actually scared now. If they do this sort of treatment (which in my book is over killing) to all the upcoming box sets (especially when there is a WCF set or the definite Apu Trilogy box coming), what am I gonna do??? I just hope that they can at least restore the shape of the original BD boxes (a little wider version of Three Colors, Trilogy of Life etc. because of extra DVDs. I guess we have wait and see eagerly!

Oh, I am also little worried about the disc production quality for the Zatoichi set! I remember the rage in this forum and everywhere else when the reviews for Hitch box set films started to come out one by one! People were angry with the packaging too. It was Universal and only 15 discs. Here we have Criterion and 27 discs! They messed the discs up in some rare occasions (Carlos or White)! I wonder how long will somebody take to finish all 27 discs and find out any error!!! So, all my best wishes to Criterion as well as to the first batch of the buyers! Thanks for reading

All of the LA B&N stores I go to have separate DVD and Blu Criterion sections.

All the ones in Illinois do the same thing.

In Pittsburgh, there are 4 stores. One of them converted their Music/DVD section into Toy section last year (it was closest to my place ](*,) )and rest of them still has separate DVD and BD sections!

chatterjees wrote:I am actually scared now. If they do this sort of treatment (which in my book is over killing) to all the upcoming box sets (especially when there is a WCF set or the definite Apu Trilogy box coming), what am I gonna do??? I just hope that they can at least restore the shape of the original BD boxes (a little wider version of Three Colors, Trilogy of Life etc. because of extra DVDs. I guess we have wait and see eagerly!

These are fair concerns, but the Zatoichi box seems like a unique set, an intentionally extravagant release that will probably be on a lot of people's holiday lists. Even before the dual-format combination, we would have been looking at massive DVD or blu-ray sets. The bevy of artists that contributed also says something about the set's uniqueness--it's as much about the love that went into the design as the films themselves. I suspect Criterion will devise a way to keep the cardboard box sets close to the usual size.

Maybe we should add a poll to this topic?

Why? The decision's made, are the options "I accept what I cannot change" and "Wahhhhhhhh"?

The Narrator Returns wrote: Why are you even on CriterionForum if you are that violently opposed to making discs of any kind? And really, the manufacturing of anything can take away "valuable materials". Do you not use pencils because they take away from the Earth's supply of wood?

The poster made no mention of being opposed to all discs, just that dual-format leaves us with more plastic that we don't use and that it prioritizes marketing/selling decisions over impact on the environment, and that is a perfectly good topic to discuss & in this thread. However, It is also difficult to assess how much more one causes than other options without more concrete information, and some of that information involves how companies guess future sales. To add to the complexity, the creation of emissions in manufacturing is completely different from that produced by extracting the materials themselves. I would imagine that when producing 1,000 discs, the carbon footprint for each disc is much higher than for a run of 10,000 discs. Then there is the same thing repeated with production of packaging materials (not to mention the need in the US to have plastic wrap on each new item).

Criterion actually made more environmentally friendly decisions when introducing blu-rays. They limited the discs in a package to only what was needed, which also made people pay more for acquiring both formats (which dissuades people from buying more). They also used packaging with acid-free paper, substituted plastic amaray cases with cardboard digipaks, etc., while also putting together nice packages, but were overwhelmingly criticized here (I don't recall anyone else standing up for the digipaks here besides myself) because of their "flimsiness". I keep mine on a shelf & only pull them out on the occassion that I want to use them, which isn't all that often for each title, given how many I have. To add to that, their flimsiness also increases their "collectability" or resale value as time goes on (because some people don't treat their stuff well).

So Criterion was resoundingly criticized for making a more enviro-friendly decisions (which also possibly caused a loss in sales) in the early days, which makes it rather unfair to criticize it for now hopping on the bandwagon. I do think that the time to go dual-format was earlier in the transition process, as most people don't buy discs now & those who do want the best available version (blu). That being said, it would be nice if Criterion shed a little light on its decision-making process to its fanboys.

Made-to-order discs are a good option to both minimize waste & sell only what is needed & have a physical copy of a title to always be available (regardless of the latest retailing trends). It would be interesting if Warners, Universal, etc. were more open in their decisions & how well this model is working. More collectors seem to dislike the programs though, because the discs aren't as durable as manufactured ones & the packaging/design is cheap (not to mention the fact that all these use plastic cases). I'm certainly less-inclined to buy dvd-r's than a nicely manufactured product.

Buying/not-buying product or posting here on a forum might be feel-good measures that convince people that they are actually doing something for the environment, but I feel that if people really want to make an impact on the environment there needs to be change industry-wide.....and for that to happen there needs to be regulation of manufacturing or a ground-swell of consumer revolt that forces companies to change the decisions they make. So, I would think if you are really concerned about the environment, time could be better spent. Should that be in encouraging people to boycot buying all discs? I think people are actually doing that already. People realize at some point that they don't use a lot of what they have & lose interest in acquiring more. I think that disc sales might show reflect that the disc-buying population is dwindling down to those who are the collectors, but films are lagging behind music in that regard because 1.) it is easier for anyone to rip/duplicate music than a film 2.) the film industry did a better job than the music industry in promoting a high definition format that can't be easily duplicated 3.) the data requirement for sound & image is heftier (ie. not as easy to stream or duplicate).

As both a collector (of music, books & movies) and someone who is concerned about his environmental impact (I have only owned one car in my 40+ years on this planet, ...), I am at a loss as to how to influence industry decisions. I buy Criterion releases over others available domestically, I buy French (minimally packaged) digipaks over others (though importing certainly adds to carbon footprint), I buy used & sell or give away what I don't want, I keep my digipaks as they are and don't ask for plastic amarays to replace them. I would become an "activist" and mobilize collectors to influence industry decisions, however I'm not sure what the best option for minimal waste/carbon is & the overwhelming sentiment of collectors (not just here) seems to be in favor of the options that involve more rather than less plastic.

Lowry_Sam wrote:

The Narrator Returns wrote:Why are you even on CriterionForum if you are that violently opposed to making discs of any kind? And really, the manufacturing of anything can take away "valuable materials". Do you not use pencils because they take away from the Earth's supply of wood?

The poster made no mention of being opposed to all discs...

Really?

dang wrote:

MichaelB wrote:Well, the solution is obvious - scrap physical media altogether and move exclusively to streaming and downloads.

Good luck selling that idea round these parts!

The good thing is, that I don't have to sell it, when it is financially sane, it will happen. Resistance is futile. The sad thing is, it won't happen until then.

vsski wrote:And has anyone calculated the environmental cost of downloads, if this is indeed the suggested alternative. Last I checked you need electricity to download anything and I doubt that all movie downloads today are being powered by wind or other renewable energy.

That was what I was thinking. It's the "pass the buck" mentality of environmentalism. Yeah, your electric car isn't burning gasoline right there in front of you, but something's most likely getting burned somewhere every time you recharge it. If the recharge is less than the gasoline, then it's a win, but it's never a 100% total reduction of waste as promoted.

I enjoy using movie clips and supplements when I teach, maybe a scene from "Short Cuts" in discussion of Raymond Carver or listening to the Flannery O'Connor audio clip on the "Wise Blood" DVD. Though the vast majority of my collection will never be incorporated into the classroom setting, I've always worried about an inevitable moment when I'd want to use one of my discs to illustrate a point in class but find myself hamstrung by owning a blu-ray when the classroom is DVD only. It may still be an issue with other releases that haven't gone dual-format, but I'm delighted Criterion is ensuring their library of titles and features will be available for both my personal and professional use.

Are we sure Dang's real name isn't Kevin?

DVD and BD's sales at this point are near identical at this point (and a lot of those BD's still come with DVD's). DVD's are still selling well and in many cases certain films still sell better on stand alone DVD's.

I don't mind the BD's coming with DVD's as it's the same price point. I just wish there were still stand alone DVD's coming out from Criterion. Why? It's going to be more expensive, have a BD that is not needed, and have a different shaped box.

Overall, not too happy about this.

Seems like a touchy subject (how could someone not want something "for free"). I for one have never felt, when purchasing a blu,that i wished i had it on dvd as well (inferior). I have often wished that some of the films i bought on dvd were out on blu. I want to experience the film in the best possible quality there is and can't possibly imagine a scenario when i would put on a dvd version of a movie i also have on blu. I rarely have time to rewatch movies i have bought (although i often fool myself into thinking i will). For me it is a totally unnecessary move, though i can understand that some people do have different viewing habits than me. For all of you who advocates the move (and i don't blame you), is this something you would like to see from all other companies as well, as long as "it's free" (i don't)? It would be nice to know why MoC changed their policy on this and switched back. I also wonder how long-term this decision can possibly be?

Flanell wrote:Seems like a touchy subject (how could someone not want something "for free"). I for one have never felt, when purchasing a blu,that i wished i had it on dvd as well (inferior). I have often wished that some of the films i bought on dvd were out on blu. I want to experience the film in the best possible quality there is and can't possibly imagine a scenario when i would put on a dvd version of a movie i also have on blu.

Personally, I prefer to have extras on DVD for greater viewing flexibility - they rarely need to be in HD, and often aren't.

dang wrote:What if you couldn't by a large tv set without receiving a smaller one as a bonus?...A sofa without a comfy chair to go with it?

That sounds fantastic!

I really hope that for future box sets of the size of Zatoichi that they'll consider keeping the formats separate because sets like these will take up half of the space of one individual shelf (of course your mileage will vary). Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to dual format and can see its benefits but the prospect of box sets with 20+ films on both BD & DVD is not one I relish.

Oh, and another vote for dual format titles coming in the BD-sized keepcases!

I would have been more excited about this move a couple years ago, as I was participating in a film club then where the viewing room didn't have BD capabilities (it was an academic setting), and so I couldn't bring in any BDs to share with the group. This would have been great for that, but the group broke up last year when the professor running it retired.

In any event, I'm not bothered by it as long as the packaging doesn't end up being routinely bigger (like everyone else, I jealously guard my shelf space). I don't think that should happen -- even the slim cases used in things like Three Colors can be made to hold two discs.

I'm mainly concerned about packaging width to accomodate all the extra discs, if the apu trilogy comes in a BBS sized box instead of a three colors sized box I'll have to choose between selling off the BBS box or not buying the apu set. I'm already in a tightly space constrained apartment and there's no more room on the shelves. (which is why I've already sold a half dozen of the titles I picked up in the most recent BN sale and have already watched, I have to make room for the next BN sale!) if the Tokyo Story box is the size of the Brakhage box I probably won't upgrade it. On the other hand, if it were in a single keepcase I'd upgrade it immediately, because I'd get rid of the double wide alpha case in favor of the smaller packaging. This is why I've upgraded Traffic and Royal Tennenbaums, actually. I can fit two titles in the space once occupied by one.

Why are DVDs even made anymore? The solution here is for Criterion to just sell the SD versions on iTunes or stream them via Hulu. Problem solved.

Criterion already uses thicker-than-normal cases for their BDs, fitting three discs in one should be doable (it's the same width that I commonly see four-disc sets in). Of course the size of the booklet would be a factor as well. At least they're not throwing a digital copy disc in there. (Otherwise known as "the disc for people who haven't downloaded a DVD ripper yet.") Now *those* are a waste of resources.

Why are DVDs even made anymore? The solution here is for Criterion to just sell the SD versions on iTunes or stream them via Hulu. Problem solved.

There are lots of people and academic situations that haven't moved to BD/HD and who would want the extras/commentaries that you don't get with iTunes/Hulu. I suppose you could tell them "tough luck, upgrade or die," but I'm glad Criterion isn't yet.

Calvin wrote:

dang wrote:This is so wrong! I'll never, ever, buy a dual format release. It's totally unjustifiable and inexcusable from an environmental perspective.

But surely dual format releases are more justifiable than separate Blu and DVD releases from an environmental perspective? They don't have to produce separate packaging for the Blu and DVD editions, the discs would still be produced regardless.

Just because they're producing dual-format editions it doesn't mean they'll use less cases and booklets. I assume they intend to sell just as many copies as they used to (if not more).

So, if they expected to sell 3 dvds and 4 bds of film x, I believe now they'd expect to sell 7 dual-format editions of that film, meaning they'll use the same amount of cases as before. I don't think they went dual-format with the intention of selling half what they used to.

BD cases use less materials than DVD cases.

One type of case can be purchased in greater quantities leading to reduced cost per item rather than two different types of cases. Economies of scale come into play when streamlining production in this way.