Rainer Werner Fassbinder

[nolanoe]

Hi there Lee.

"I also am interested in how he points out master/slave relationships between people, and how we are all taken advantage of and take the advantage over other people and are often helpless as to choosing which one to be."

This is one of my gripes with this guys oeuvre, but it's based on my knowledge of his person - to an extent, Fassbinder was always keen on being the master, yet tried to make people see him as the "slave", the one used. Thus, Fox and Petra von Kant are two of his films I didn't enjoy all that much, as it seemed, to me, to be films not really about a personal human struggle, but rather navel-gazing exercises of the sado-masochism Fassbinder applied in real life.

I, however, love Fear eats the Soul and quite liked Chinese Roulette (although I am still not too keen on the ending). Look out for World on a Wire (his best by far, as much as I love Fear eats the Soul), 13 Moons, Despair, Lola and the Third Generation, as well as (to an extent) Veronika Voss and Gods of the Plague. Definitely stay clear from Maria Braun (I know, people might tell you it's his best, but really, it's a waste of time) and Katzelmacher.

And then there is Querelle which I am still not sure if it is so art it's bad or so bad it's art... Looking forward to the soon-to-be-Blu Ray of this to re-evaluate.

[pzadvance]

Hey everybody. Ignorant film fan here.

There's a big Fassbinder retrospective looming here in Los Angeles for the month of June, and I'm wondering if/why I should go. Figured this would be the place to find out.

I'm a big fan of Herzog and early Wenders, and at a recent screening of Bela Tarr's Almanac of Fall it was noted that Tarr was a great admirer of Fassbinder's work and Almanac was allegedly proof of that.

But I'm largely unfamiliar with Fassbinder's films. I saw Marriage of Maria Braun whilst studying in Prague a couple years back and it did very little for me, and my enthusiasm for his other work has, I suppose, waned since then.

I guess I'm just here to ask, in a very basic sense, what is it that you love about Fassbinder and his films? What's a good starting point? What are the can't-miss hits? Who might you compare him to? I'm debating going balls-deep into his ouvre thanks to this retrospective and I wanted to know what I'd be in for.

Many thanks for any words you can send my way.

[Matt]

I think a great place to start is by reading all of the previous posts in this thread. You'll find lots of recommendations for films to start with and appreciations of Fassbinder's work. If you didn't connect with Maria Braun (and, truth be told, it's not one of my favorites either), you might want to take a look at some of his less "realistic" work like Veronika Voss, Effi Briest, or Chinese Roulette - three very different films, but each great in its own way.

[hearthesilence]

Hey everybody. Ignorant film fan here.

There's a big Fassbinder retrospective looming here in Los Angeles for the month of June, and I'm wondering if/why I should go. Figured this would be the place to find out.

I'm a big fan of Herzog and early Wenders, and at a recent screening of Bela Tarr's Almanac of Fall it was noted that Tarr was a great admirer of Fassbinder's work and Almanac was allegedly proof of that.

But I'm largely unfamiliar with Fassbinder's films. I saw Marriage of Maria Braun whilst studying in Prague a couple years back and it did very little for me, and my enthusiasm for his other work has, I suppose, waned since then.

I guess I'm just here to ask, in a very basic sense, what is it that you love about Fassbinder and his films? What's a good starting point? What are the can't-miss hits? Who might you compare him to? I'm debating going balls-deep into his ouvre thanks to this retrospective and I wanted to know what I'd be in for.

Many thanks for any words you can send my way.

Yeah, Maria Braun isn't one of my favorites either - it's strange, because it's probably his most popular film. It was a huge success in Germany by any standard, and I think it was his first commercial success on a international scale, I think his biggest by a wide margin. But I never thought it was a great film, much less Fassbinder's best work. I don't think I'm in the minority either - I know J. Hoberman called it the "least" of the BRD films, and Jonathan Rosenbaum wasn't impressed by it when he first saw it.

Hanna Schygulla is terrific - much of the film's commercial appeal probably comes from her - and what Fassbinder is trying to do with this film is important from a historical perspective (to me, it's the thesis statement of the BRD films, which was supposed to be an ongoing series), but it doesn't rise to the same heights as his best films.

IMHO, Veronika Voss is the one great film of the BRD films - it's worth noting that it's a strong departure from the other two films as well and the last one to be produced before Fassbinder's death.

I think Fassbinder's two best films are Ali: Fear Eats the Soul and Berlin Alexanderplatz - to me, they're his two masterpieces.

Quite possibly a great film, World on a Wire was recently re-discovered, having been restored then shown in America for the first time ever - it's a little bloated at 200+ minutes, but it's aged remarkably. It was originally made for TV in the early '70s, and it's amazing how many sci-fi films seem to recall it: Blade Runner, The Matrix, Avatar, you name it. I liked it quite a bit, but I've only seen it once and have been meaning to revisit it.

I've heard excellent things about The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant, Fox and His Friends and Martha as well, I think a number of people consider them favorites, but I haven't seen them.

[feihong]

I really like Maria Braun. I didn't at the time I first saw it, however. But it took some time, learning more about Fassbinder, more about Douglas Sirk, about the Hollywood "womens picture," about postwar Germany before I really appreciated the film. I think it's a little like one of Bunuel's more subtle films, where the social critique is woven somewhat obliquely into story terms.

I'm not sure there is a real "can't-miss hit" in Fassbinder's oeuvre. His films are more like an idea that gradually seeps into your consciousness as it's material washes over you. Ali: Fear Eats the Soul is one of the most thematically complete movies. Petra Von Kant is very interesting. I really liked World on a Wire when I saw it recently, and the BRD films in general are pretty great.

One of the things that helped me get "access" to Fassbinder more than anything else is the exceptional audio commentary on the third BRD film, Lola. Christian Braad Thomsen delivers every piece of information you'd ever need to get hip to Fassbinder in the 2 hrs. or so that Lola runs. He covers a huge swath of material, from themes and how they're worked out, to the stylistic evolution of Fassbinder, to Fassbinder's work and its relationship to his personal life, to an extensive rundown of "career highlight" films, which covers at least 17 films. This commentary is a great way to get into Fassbinder and get some access to his work very quickly.

One I like which I haven't seen much love for anywhere is The Third Generation. The constant drone of electronic media which runs through that film is a fantastic conceit, especially when Gunther Kaufmann at one point asks if anyone's watching the television, or can he turn it off? Eddie Constantine is priceless as the bemused capitalist exploiter in the film, thrilled to be kidnapped (after all, it will help him sell computers), and happy to help provide take after take of his filmed ransom note. One thing that helped put this viewing experience into perspective was the fact that I'd just seen The Baader-Meinhof Complex, the recent German "action film" about the Red Army Faction. The Third Generation was Fassbinder's film about the RAF, several members of which he knew personally (Thomsen covers this also in his commentary). Watching the two pictures seemed to me to explain in many ways the difference between a populist-arthouse-and-entertainment flick and a movie by a sensitive, creative film auteur.

And I have slowly been enjoying Berlin Alexanderplatz to a huge degree. Every episode is wonderful, although the first one took a couple of viewings to really get into and out of, remaining wide awake. I'm not done, probably partly because I don't want it to be done, but I think it's pretty great.

[Lemmy Caution]

My favorite Fassbinder is Veronica Voss, and it seemed like there's general consensus here that it's one of RWF's best films. A real hypnotic quality to it which fits in with some of its themes. And it'd probably look great on a big screen.

I think In A Year with 13 Moons is a hugely powerful film with an amazing central performance. That's the Fassbinder I've watched the most, even if it's not such an easy viewing.
I'd love to see that on a big screen -- especially for the first time!

Maybe others could comment on which Fassbinder's would benefit most from a theatrical viewing.
I'm thinking World on a Wire and Despair, but maybe that's just because I've seen them fairly recently. There was a lot to like in Wire, but it became attenuated in the second part of its nearly 3.5 hour runtime.

Lots of suggestions and detailed discussion of RWF films in this thread.
Do you have a link for the Fassbinder retrospective?
I'm wondering if any hard-to-see Fassbinders are on the program.
Are there still any Fassbinder films not available in an English friendly format?

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

There's still some TV work that's not out in (legitimate) English-friendly editions -- Eight Hours Are Not a Day, Bremen Freedom, Jail Bait, Nora Helmer, and Like a Bird on a Wire -- plus the documentary Theater in Trance. There is at least an unsubbed German DVD of Theater in Trance, and subtitled bootlegs of Bremen Freedom, Jail Bait, Nora Helmer, and Like a Bird on a Wire are in circulation. None of these are being shown at the Los Angeles retrospective, the schedule for which is here.

[Lemmy Caution]

Looking at the schedule, none of my recs are even playing except for Veronika Voss.
That link lists all of them as belonging to Janus Films.
That's a dozen Fassbinder's besides the 4 already out on CC.
Is this accurate?
Fassbinder Eclipse(s)?

[swo17]

I'm not sure that anything has been confirmed but there's some speculation here.

[zedz]

Maybe others could comment on which Fassbinder's would benefit most from a theatrical viewing.
I'm thinking World on a Wire and Despair, but maybe that's just because I've seen them fairly recently. There was a lot to like in Wire, but it became attenuated in the second part of its nearly 3.5 hour runtime.

I've been lucky enough to see about half of my thirty-something Fassbinders in an honest-to-goodness cinema, and I'd recommend the more lavish and baroque ones. Effi Briest is a stunning-looking film, and its white-on-white delicacy is much harder to appreciate on a small screen in standard definition. Veronika Voss is another silvery stunner in a good print. Chinese Roulette and Martha and Petra von Kant are also great cinematic experiences - the scale of the performances demands a big arena. Basically, the films in which he was most overtly striving for Sirkian grandeur should be seen in Sirkian conditions.

A number of the 16mm TV productions (including World on a Wire) and the early, grungy minimalist films probably don't gain anywhere near as much from the transition to the big screen, but Berlin Alexanderplatz is a big exception, even though it was designed for television. If you can see it in one or two big lumps, stuck in a theatre with strangers, it's an electrifying experience, and every grain of meaning you can extract from the low-contrast photography is worth it.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

Gaumont's upcoming blu of Querelle will include the english version

[thirtyframesasecond]

Yes's to Veronika Voss, In a Year of Thirteen Moons, Fear Eats The Soul, Fox and his Friends, Martha, with Querelle as a weird curiosity.

[hearthesilence]

Three Fassbinder double features this month at the 92YTribeca. Everything is projected in 35mm, all double features are $12 for each pair of films.

http://www.92y.org/Tribeca/Film/Overdue ... eries.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BigBlackSunn]

John Sandford's book THE NEW GERMAN CINEMA (1980) is well researched. His chapter on Fassbinder gives many filming dates and his filmography seems to be correct. As most Fassbinder freaks know various sources list his films in different order. I will now be using Sandford's which lists the major films in the following order [filming dates are in brackets].

Films [not incl. TV plays] in order of release:
LOVE IS COLDER THAN DEATH [WINTER 1969]
KATZELMACHER [8/69]
GODS OF THE PLAGUE [AUTUMN 1969]
HERR R [12/69]
RIO DAS MORTES [1/70] See the used car seller's receipt book
WHITY [4/70 - This filming date may be wrong. I have guessed it. A hotter time of the year is more probable so June to July might be more plausible, i.e. after NIKLASHAUSEN.]
NIKLASHAUSEN [5/70]
AMERICAN SOLDIER [8/70]
HOLY WHORE [9/70]
PIONEERS [11/70]
MERCHANT OF 4 SEASONS [8/71]
PETRA [1972]
WILD GAME [1972]
FEAR EATS THE SOUL [9/73]
MARTHA [EARLY AUTUMN 1973]
EFFI BRIEST [AUTUMN 1972 then, after a lengthly break due to an actor's illness etc., AUTUMN 1973]
FOX [SPRING-SUMMER 1974]
MOTHER KUSTERS [SPRING 1975]
FEAR OF FEAR [SPRING 1975]
I ONLY WANT YOU TO LOVE ME [1976]
SATAN'S BREW [1976]
CHINESE ROULETTE [1976]

As someone who is new Fassbinder, is this the proper order to watch his films? I know they are only the production dates and not the release dates.

[lastrade]

has Volker Schlöndorff's baal ever come out on dvd? I'd love to see Fassbinder's performance of Baal in it! I think there is a short extract from it in one of the fassbinder documentaries but I've never seen it available anywhere.

[j99]

has Volker Schlöndorff's baal ever come out on dvd? I'd love to see Fassbinder's performance of Baal in it! I think there is a short extract from it in one of the fassbinder documentaries but I've never seen it available anywhere.

Not to my knowledge. It's one I've wanted to see for a long time.

[ex-cowboy]

I've recently started a 'Fassbinder Fest' and last night decided on Chinese Roulette. Whilst not my favourite Fassbinder, it did prove utterly involving and I found the theme of the undercurent of Nazi-ideology still imbued in post-war generations (not too dissimilar to ther Fassbinders) was dealt with very well. Two scenes particularly struck me. Firstly the ones of Margit Carstensen dressed in an olive drab shirt, with her hair tied back to accentuate her teutonic androgony, eleciting images not only of fascist rallies and the idea of national unity amongst all, both male and female, but also the later dabbling with similar imagery of groups such as the Neue Slowenische Kunst. The second scene involves an excellent use of Kraftwerk and involves Angela, Traunitz and Gabriel, which seemed to highlight the ways in which the younger or youngest generations could only feel emancipated from the shackles of older generations thorugh art and culture of their era (a modernist nod via Alain Robbe-Grillet to Fassbinder himself). Forgive me if I've missed a similar postt here, but it struck me as such a fascinating and underappreciated Fassbinder work.

[Matt]

Yes, it's one of my favorites, but not one you see discussed often.

[nolanoe]

It's one of his better films, indeed. I think the point where this one collapses a bit is the ending. Fassbinder allegedly assembled everything in pretty much two weeks (as he's had some money left from his last shoot), and the ending just feels... a bit... there. But yes, it's one of his better ones.

[repeat]

Yes! Personal favorite - never realized it was underappreciated. Macha Méril's character is spellbinding, truly the heart of this film for me. Have to rewatch promptly

[ex-cowboy]

Underappreciated, perhaps not by Fassbinder fans, but certainly in wider film circles, I've never really heard it mentioned alongsiode his more famous works - Fear Eats the Soul, Bitter Tears etc. Very interesting point regarding Macha Méril, I must confess I didn't really pay a huge amount of interest to her character, definitely will be rectified on subsequent viewings. I first really took proper notice of her during the 'Kraftwerk scene'. Margrit Carstensen was, for me, the most beguiling on screen presence.

[BrianInAtlanta]

Had a weird confluence of my interest in film and the rock band The Who last night while watching Katzelmacher last night from the Early Fassbinder set. Where did Fassbinder get "Young Man Blues" for the woman to sing (in English no less) 23 minutes in?

A bit of timeline checking showed it to probably be a coincidence but an odd one for such an obscure song. Mose Allison released it as "Blues" on his Back Country Suite album in 1957. Pete Townshend heard it in 1962 and The High Numbers had it in their live set in 1964. They dropped it after that and didn't pick it up again until their 1968 summer tour. However they never played it anywhere near Germany until after the filming of Katzelmacher in August 1969 (and was it in the play version?). The Who did put out a studio recording in July 1969 on the compilation album The House That Track Built but that would even be more obscure than hearing Mose's original. The well-known recording wasn't until the release of Live At Leeds.

Don't know if any of this would interest anyone here but it's strange when these two interests collide and where else could I share it?

[Ovader]

has Volker Schlöndorff's baal ever come out on dvd? I'd love to see Fassbinder's performance of Baal in it! I think there is a short extract from it in one of the fassbinder documentaries but I've never seen it available anywhere.

Not to my knowledge. It's one I've wanted to see for a long time.

This may make you happy.

[accatone]

http://www.zweitausendeins.de/baal-zwei ... -1969.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Baal to be released in Cinema and on DVD with "Sub: E/F.". That is what zweitausendeins says, i can not confirm from the actual disc.

[MichaelB]

Estonian and Flemish subtitles, I reckon.