The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[matrixschmatrix]

I'm curious- what do you have against Clementine?

[knives]

Nothing. I like it well enough, but it's merely good not great.

[Nothing]

Liberty Valance is such a tedious load, can't imagine why anyone would vote for it... Clementine deserve a vote for formal reasons alone, it is probably Ford's best-made western from a technical POV, in particularly the final duel (influential on Leone), and of course Fonda is iconic here.

Just caught up with Jeremiah Johnson - I too was extremely weary of the Redford-Pollack liberal double act and yet, as domino correctly highlighted, it is John Milius who has his grubby fingerprints all over this (score another one against auteur theory). It's a really engaging, evocative and emotional piece actually, and only Milius could manage to pull off a western where even I ended up rooting against the Indians at one point... I don't buy the idea that the film in racist, incidentally, since it treats the Native Americans as human beings at all times and is probably a far more accurate portrayal of a warrior-like culture than liberal fantasy westerns of the Dances with Wolves ilk. The film does get a bit too Schwarzenegger towards the end however, and the songs suck eggs, but then no-one's perfect...

Ox-Box Incident - clunkingly obvious, manipulative and heavyhanded screenplay ("let's explore an ISSUE!") directed with a limited amount of flair by Wellman (the hanging scene stands out). Engaging enough, but nowhere near list material pour moi.

Glancing back at Days of Heaven with regards to eligibility, I have to concede that it is probably not a western - and yet it also struck me that with this and The New World Malick has done a wonderful thing, making two films that very effectively bookend the history of the American West (the question then being does Days of Heaven mark the end of a chapter or the beginning of a new one?) In any case, it's a film that gets better with each and every viewing, the true definition of a masterpiece... This also had me thinking, if one wanted to experience that history in cinematic form there's an incredible lack of films detailing the 1600s - mid 1800s. Okay, after The New World I can think of Last of the Mohicans, Walker (nb. is this a western?! and if this qualifies what about Quiemada!?) The Patriot, The Crucible, Addio Zio Tom... It's too late for the deadline, but would definitely appreciate some more recommendations in this regard, particularly films made in the 60s/70s and onwards (ie. films that genuinely engage with the history rather than perpetuating some ghastly reactionary fantasy to appease the Hays Code).

Last thought, when this is all done and dusted should we not celebrate by singing together in a slightly brainwashed fashion:

Shall we gather at the river, where bright angel feet have trod...

[knives]

I'm the one who said that Milius' paws were all over it.

[matrixschmatrix]

Haha, my first association with that is the Wild Bunch, not Ford, so that would be a risky hymn.

Just caught up with Jeremiah Johnson - I too was extremely weary of the Redford-Pollack liberal double act and yet, as domino correctly highlighted, it is John Milius who has his grubby fingerprints all over this (score another one against auteur theory). It's a really engaging, evocative and emotional piece actually, and only Milius could manage to pull off a western where even I ended up rooting against the Indians at one point... I don't buy the idea that the film in racist, incidentally, since it treats the Native Americans as human beings at all times and is probably a far more accurate portrayal of a warrior-like culture than liberal fantasy westerns of the Dances with Wolves ilk. The film does get a bit too Schwarzenegger towards the end however, and the songs suck eggs, but then no-one's perfect...

I have no idea of how you can claim that you can't distance yourself from a movie's politics and then tolerate anything Milius has done, the man's militarist to the point of fascism. I think the movie's scenario, in which a superhuman white man is so skilled at killing a native tribe that they grow to respect him, is a classic colonialist story- certainly, it jibes well with James Fenimore Cooper's writings, and there are any number of analogs in Anglo-Indian and Euro-African narratives. It's just not quite the same racism as most Westerns indulge in (and why are our only two options this and Dances With Wolves?)

Glancing back at Days of Heaven with regards to eligibility, I have to concede that it is probably not a western - and yet it also struck me that with this and The New World Malick has done a wonderful thing, making two films that very effectively bookend the history of the American West (the question then being does Days of Heaven mark the end of a chapter or the beginning of a new one?) In any case, it's a film that gets better with each and every viewing, the true definition of a masterpiece... This also had me thinking, if one wanted to experience that history in cinematic form there's an incredible lack of films detailing the 1600s - mid 1800s. Okay, after The New World I can think of Last of the Mohicans, Walker (nb. is this a western?! and if this qualifies what about Quiemada!?) The Patriot, The Crucible, Addio Zio Tom... It's too late for the deadline, but would definitely appreciate some more recommendations in this regard, particularly films made in the 60s/70s and onwards (ie. films that genuinely engage with the history rather than perpetuating some ghastly reactionary fantasy to appease the Hays Code).

If you think Mel Gibson's The Patriot is anything other than a reactionary fantasy, you weren't watching it closely. In any case, Ford's Drums Along the Mohawk, Scorsese's Gangs of New York (at least in its opening scenes,) Keaton's Our Hospitality, Herzog's Aguirre and Cobra Verde, and Dieterle's The Devil and Daniel Webster all come to mind as being in that range, but I'm not sure I'd count any of them as Westerns.

[Mr Sausage]

Last thought, when this is all done and dusted should we not celebrate by singing together in a slightly brainwashed fashion:

Shall we gather at the river, where bright angel feet have trod...

No. Since this project was about our collective love for that most cinematic of genres, the Western, the best thing to do now is to listen to the greatest love theme ever recorded for a Western. No shame if your eyes tear up.

Walker (nb. is this a western?! and if this qualifies what about Quiemada!?)

I would say no, simply because any movie that is about an attempt to colonize a country that isn't America or Mexico cannot be a Western. That, and Walker isn't actually about the nineteenth century anyway, as you can see when history starts to break down half-way through the film, until the building anachronisms cease to be superimpositions and simply takeover. At the end you're not even in South America anymore, but Vietnam.

[matrixschmatrix]

No. Since this project was about our collective love for that most cinematic of genres, the Western, the best thing to do now is to listen to the greatest love theme ever recorded for a Western. No shame if your eyes tear up.

Ahem.

[Mr Sausage]

BANNED!

[zedz]

Pre-1600s, but good counterparts to The New World:

Ecchevaria's Cabeza de Vaca - would-be conquistadors stumble through America, having to assimilate with Native Americans in order to survive, then come out the other end to confront their own colonising forces.

Dos Santos' How Tasty Was My Little Frenchman - dark and playful anti-colonialist satire set (according to imdb) in 1594

Spoiler

and that really is a spoiler in the title!

[Nothing]

a superhuman white man is so skilled at killing a native tribe that they grow to respect him

Well, as I say, the film did start to lose me with its Schwareneggerian antics in the final half hour (a Milius speciality!). Everything up to and including the death of the surrogate family was very moving, however. And yes, The Patriot is terrible, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but there are so few films covering this period that I was shy of examples...

Would you consider the two Herzog and How Tasty... to be westerns then? I guess we get back into this thing of whether or not a film south of the border qualifies... Perhaps only if it features a prominent North American character (eg. The Wild Bunch, Quien Sabe, Walker - which is subtextually about the Cotra struggle, not Vietnam, surely, although I guess you could extend that to include all American imperialism)? AND/OR if it trades in western iconography (as Giu la Testa, Walker, etc, clearly do). I don't know... Any more films dealing specifically with North American history, though? And is there even one good film (other than Gone With the Wind ) about the American Civil War?

p.s. - The Guns of San Sebastian, eh? Trust Sausage to come up with an essential-looking western that I haven't seen only hours before the deadline (sigh...)

[Mr Sausage]

p.s. - The Guns of San Sebastian, eh? Trust zedz to come up with an essential-looking western that I haven't seen only hours before the deadline (sigh...)

Er, that was me.

[Lighthouse]

Jeremiah Johnson is a good western, but Pollack wasn't the best choice for directing it. He's too gentle, and the screenplay would have maybe benefited from a more savage director.

[domino harvey]

Also, lists due today by midnight Eastern time.

[Nothing]

domino the regulator! get them beasts in line

so can we see the individual lists when it's all done?

A mea culpa of the candidates I would've liked to get to but didn't manage it:

Wichita (still in the post, dang)
A Great Day in the Morning (OOP, too expensive!)
The Big Sky (€30 delivered was just too much for a DVD of disreputable quality...)
Meek's Cutoff (waiting for the BD)
China 9, Liberty 37 (p&s+censorship... just couldn't stomach it)
Open Range (sitting there but just didn't get to it)
Cowboy (ditto)
Way of a Gaucho
By the Law
Gunlaw
Ramrod
Pursued
Storm Rider
Sabata
Helllbenders
Navajo Joe
Lawman
A Man Called Horse 1&2

+ those I haven't yet seen to the end:

A Big Hand for the Little Lady
The Big Trail (70mm)
3:10 to Yuma (original)
Four of the Apocalypse
Lonesome Dove

Oh well.

[domino harvey]

so can we see the individual lists when it's all done?

I won't post the individual lists, but I wouldn't be adverse to posting the participants, so you can PM anyone/everyone you're curious about and they might share with you. Participants are also of course welcome to post their lists in whole or in part in this thread as well.

[Nothing]

will happily post my list once the deadline has passed.

[domino harvey]

I will say this: There are several films performing very well so far that were not discussed even in passing once in this thread. How was I or others getting their feet wet in the genre supposed to know of these great films if contributors just assume everyone's seen them? It's a bit frustrating and one hopes people won't assume as much in future lists

[domino harvey]

With thirteen lists now in, it's pretty clear even without me tallying it up what film will be number one-- even though this film only appeared on 2/3 of the lists, it appeared almost unanimously at or near the top spot on these lists. The real suspense is what the rest of that top ten looks like once I actually crunch numbers-- and remember, still plenty of time (sort of) to get your list in.

[Lighthouse]

If the lists were done by Film critics it surely would be The Searchers with a big winning margin.

A modern audience of this out of fashion genre might prefer Peckinpah or Leone to Ford, Hawks, Mann, Boetticher or the "sur western" classic High Noon.

As Leone is more post modern than Peckinpah, and The Good, the Bad, the Ugly is not as arty, I assume that Once upon a Time in the West will make it.

I'm curious

[domino harvey]

Just in case someone couldn't get thru with their list due to SQLFest 2011, I'm extending the deadline to tomorrow 5pm Est time

[swo17]

Missed opportunity for High Noon joke

[Cold Bishop]

You know, before the Criterion DVD, I might have agreed with you, but a recent rewatching of Stagecoach really went a long way in convincing me that its truly that great. A perfect example of the way a rewatch can sometimes put you completely in sync with a film you never cared for much prior.

[Nothing]

we be good white christian folk kill them injuns woo hoo \:D/

[matrixschmatrix]

Honestly, the Indians are an almost totally abstract threat- obviously, in a broader sense, it's actually intensely problematic (as they're utterly dehumanized) but it's easy enough to watch the movie and not be distracted by it, since they're not a focal point at all. And hell, at least it has a really interesting deconstruction of the Southern White Gentleman (and the saving one bullet thing) to compensate- that's more than, say, Winchester '73 has (and I'd bet money that will wind up in the top 10 too, and not without reason.)

[Cold Bishop]

The "good white christian folk" don't come out looking all that good either. I use to think that Nick Ray's redrawing of the frontier conflict, siding with the outsiders against the monstrous community, was a completely radical take on the Western; however, the seed is already clearly their in Stagecoach.

"Well, they're saved from the blessings of civilization."