The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[matrixschmatrix]

Anti-civilization can wind up being fascist just as easily as it can wind up any kind of progressivism, though- just look at, you know, every single thing John Milius has ever made.

[knives]

Milius though can make it rock. I may be disgusted by the man's personal beliefs, but he can spin those beliefs into an absolutely amazing yarn.

[Nothing]

Didn't vote for Winchester '73 or Johnny Guitar either

All this talk of 'seeds' comes back to my original point, imho - what does it matter if the first tentative seed of a good idea can be unearthed in an earlier film if it takes a later, better film to run with it, free from the constraints of historical ignorance, draconian censorship and reactionary politics? That's a little bit like prefering Haydn to Beethoven (although, having said that, I don't wish to conflate the genius of Haydn with the tedium and dishonesty of early Ford...).

[matrixschmatrix]

Milius though can make it rock. I may be disgusted by the man's personal beliefs, but he can spin those beliefs into an absolutely amazing yarn.

Ha, it's funny, I make fun of Nothing's ideology first approach to movies, but I have to admit that Milius is a case where mine stops me seeing whatever positive aspects there are to his work (with the exception of Apocalypse Now, where it doesn't feel like his viewpoint dominated.) Red Dawn made me physically ill, and I'd say Judge Roy Bean is handily my least favorite western.

All this talk of 'seeds' comes back to my original point, imho - what does it matter if the first tentative seed of a good idea can be unearthed in an earlier film if it takes a later, better film to run with it, free from the constraints of historical ignorance, draconian censorship and reactionary politics?

I'm baffled by your idea that ignorance, censorship, and reactionary politics are confined to the first half of the century.

[knives]

Milius though can make it rock. I may be disgusted by the man's personal beliefs, but he can spin those beliefs into an absolutely amazing yarn.

Ha, it's funny, I make fun of Nothing's ideology first approach to movies, but I have to admit that Milius is a case where mine stops me seeing whatever positive aspects there are to his work (with the exception of Apocalypse Now, where it doesn't feel like his viewpoint dominated.) Red Dawn made me physically ill, and I'd say Judge Roy Bean is handily my least favorite western.

I guess there will always be a breaking point for people, Mizoguchi does it for me and Milius does it for you.

[Nothing]

If you don't take a poll, how can you claim to know how the majority feel about the subject?

knives - the funny thing is, I love Mizoguchi and have quite a bit of time for Milius too

[tarpilot]

Milius's Dillinger will probably make top 20 on my action list. One I'd readily recommend to those put off by his politics.

[Nothing]

Dillinger is very good, and extremely Peckinpah-esque (although can't compete even with relatively minor Peckinpah such as Cable Hogue and Cross of Iron imho).

So tarpilot, I don't suppose you're interested in defending Stars in My Crown?

[tarpilot]

d

[domino harvey]

Fuuuuuuucccccckkkkkkk

[knives]

I'm so happy for number one. Couldn't be a better movie. Totally makes up for number two. Also thank you for all of the hard work. Must have been hell.

[Perkins Cobb]

Thanks for the hard work, domino.

I'll rustle up (get it!) some comments on the results if I have time, but first ... what's with the lowercase "the"'s? I didn't think anyone could think up a typographical eccentricity more viscerally irritating than perkizitore's backwards $'s but I see I was wrong.

[matrixschmatrix]

Could you post how many people voted for each title, or would that be a huge bitch?

[zedz]

I'm guessing the lower case "the" is a workaround for properly alphabetizing titles on Excel or somesuch. I used to leave off articles entirely and then manually reinsert them when preparing the final list, since I'm a primitive.

Anyways, thanks a bundle to domino for handling this whole project so efficiently and good-naturedly. For what it's worth, here are the films I voted for, with a few comments appended for films I haven't already commented on.

Top Twenty

1. Man of the West (Mann, 1958)
2. The Searchers (Ford, 1956)
3. The Tall T (Boetticher, 1957)
4. My Darling Clementine (Ford, 1946)
5. The Hired Hand (Fonda, 1971)
6. The Man from Laramie (Mann, 1955)
7. The Shooting (Hellman, 1965)
8. Ride the High Country (Peckinpah, 1962)
9. Black God, White Devil (Rocha, 1964)
10. Pursued (Walsh, 1947)
11. Seven Men from Now (Boetticher, 1956)
12. Rio Bravo (Hawks, 1959)
13. The Naked Spur (Mann, 1953)
14. Forty Guns (Fuller, 1957)
15. McCabe and Mrs Miller (Altman, 1971)
16. Deputy Droopy (Avery / Lah, 1955) – ORPHAN
17. The Big Trail (Walsh, 1930)
18. Whity (Fassbinder, 1970)
19. Ride Lonesome (Boetticher, 1959)
20. By the Law (Kuleshov, 1926)

All already discussed by me or else self-explanatory, with the exception of Deputy Droopy, which I’ll boldly claim is the great western comedy that’s been eluding us all. Avery is as crazily inventive with a tightly worked theme and variations over the space of minutes as George Herriman was over the space of years. Sheer genius.

The Rest

21. The Tin Star (Mann, 1957)
22. China 9 Liberty 37 (Hellman, 1978) – This is available in proper widescreen if you know where to look, and it’s worth the hunt for Hellman’s superb compositional eye. In some respects it’s a lot more narratively straightforward than Hellman’s great mid-sixties Westerns, but the strong performances shade things in nicely.
23. Day of the Outlaw (De Toth, 1959)
24. Winchester 73 (Mann, 1950) – Conveniently situated in the middle of my list. Although there are a number of Mann westerns I prefer, this film is so wonderfully entertaining and beautifully made that it made for a very convenient dividing line (e.g. “Is film X better than this mid-range Mann?”)
25. The Wind (Sjostrom, 1928) – It seems to me that in the silent era the western was far more likely to be a contemporary or near-contemporary genre (e.g. Bucking Broadway), as witnessed by a film like Go West, which is set up as a parody of the genre but is nonetheless contemporary and partly urban. So I had no qualms about including this great film on my list. I note that Wikipedia seems unable to decide whether the source novel was set in the 1880s or the 1920s, which I suppose is sort of the point.
26. Once Upon a Time in the West (Leone, 1968)
27. Johnny Guitar (Ray, 19540
28. Little Big Man (Penn, 1970)
29. The Chechahcos (Moomaw, 1924) – ORPHAN
30. Stagecoach (Ford, 1939)
31. Terror in a Texas Town (Lewis, 1958)
32. The Great Silence (Corbucci, 1968)
33. Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid (Peckinpah, 1973)
34. Fort Apache (Ford, 1948)
35. The Iron Horse (Ford, 1925)
36. The Furies (Mann, 1950)
37. Two Rode Together (Ford, 1961)
38. Buchanan Rides Alone (Boetticher, 1958) – ALSO RAN – Weird, when this seemed to be far more popular with this forum than it had ever been anywhere else.
39. Dark Command (Walsh, 1940) – ORPHAN
40. Comanche Station (Boetticher, 1960) – ALSO RAN, and I’m fine with that since there are a number of better films in the Ranown cycle.
41. In the Land of the War Canoes (Curtis, 1914) – ORPHAN
42. Garden of Evil (Hathaway, 1954) – ORPHAN - Domino (I think) was right that the second half doesn’t live up to the promise of the first, but that first half is outstanding, with some incredibly creative use of landscape, stitched together to make the character’s odyssey compelling.
43. Vera Cruz (Aldrich, 1954) – As gloriously florid in its own way as Johnny Guitar.
44. Colorado Territory (Walsh, 1949)
45. Ride in the Whirlwind (Hellman, 1965) – ALSO RAN – Though I’m sure it wouldn’t be if a good transfer were more readily available. I had to space my Hellmans out, but they’re all excellent.
46. Go West (Keaton, 1925)
47. Keoma (Castellari, 1976) – ORPHAN
48. The Gunfighter (King, 1950)
49. I Shot Jesse James (Fuller, 1949) – ALSO RAN - Not a patch on Fuller’s Forty Guns, but here because I remember when I was watching the final section of Dominik’s okay film that all this had already been done so much better.
50. Backlash (Sturges, 1956)

[domino harvey]

Someone's list got overlooked and it's completely my fault and I have to go back to square one and redo everything. I am sorry and embarrassed and it will not get done til tomorrow at the earliest.

[Yojimbo]

I'm guessing the lower case "the" is a workaround for properly alphabetizing titles on Excel or somesuch. I used to leave off articles entirely and then manually reinsert them when preparing the final list, since I'm a primitive.

Anyways, thanks a bundle to domino for handling this whole project so efficiently and good-naturedly. For what it's worth, here are the films I voted for, with a few comments appended for films I haven't already commented on.

Spoiler

Top Twenty

1. Man of the West (Mann, 1958)
2. The Searchers (Ford, 1956)
3. The Tall T (Boetticher, 1957)
4. My Darling Clementine (Ford, 1946)
5. The Hired Hand (Fonda, 1971)
6. The Man from Laramie (Mann, 1955)
7. The Shooting (Hellman, 1965)
8. Ride the High Country (Peckinpah, 1962)
9. Black God, White Devil (Rocha, 1964)
10. Pursued (Walsh, 1947)
11. Seven Men from Now (Boetticher, 1956)
12. Rio Bravo (Hawks, 1959)
13. The Naked Spur (Mann, 1953)
14. Forty Guns (Fuller, 1957)
15. McCabe and Mrs Miller (Altman, 1971)
16. Deputy Droopy (Avery / Lah, 1955) – ORPHAN
17. The Big Trail (Walsh, 1930)
18. Whity (Fassbinder, 1970)
19. Ride Lonesome (Boetticher, 1959)
20. By the Law (Kuleshov, 1926)

All already discussed by me or else self-explanatory, with the exception of Deputy Droopy, which I’ll boldly claim is the great western comedy that’s been eluding us all. Avery is as crazily inventive with a tightly worked theme and variations over the space of minutes as George Herriman was over the space of years. Sheer genius.

The Rest

21. The Tin Star (Mann, 1957)
22. China 9 Liberty 37 (Hellman, 1978) – This is available in proper widescreen if you know where to look, and it’s worth the hunt for Hellman’s superb compositional eye. In some respects it’s a lot more narratively straightforward than Hellman’s great mid-sixties Westerns, but the strong performances shade things in nicely.
23. Day of the Outlaw (De Toth, 1959)
24. Winchester 73 (Mann, 1950) – Conveniently situated in the middle of my list. Although there are a number of Mann westerns I prefer, this film is so wonderfully entertaining and beautifully made that it made for a very convenient dividing line (e.g. “Is film X better than this mid-range Mann?”)
25. The Wind (Sjostrom, 1928) – It seems to me that in the silent era the western was far more likely to be a contemporary or near-contemporary genre (e.g. Bucking Broadway), as witnessed by a film like Go West, which is set up as a parody of the genre but is nonetheless contemporary and partly urban. So I had no qualms about including this great film on my list. I note that Wikipedia seems unable to decide whether the source novel was set in the 1880s or the 1920s, which I suppose is sort of the point.
26. Once Upon a Time in the West (Leone, 1968)
27. Johnny Guitar (Ray, 19540
28. Little Big Man (Penn, 1970)
29. The Chechahcos (Moomaw, 1924) – ORPHAN
30. Stagecoach (Ford, 1939)
31. Terror in a Texas Town (Lewis, 1958)
32. The Great Silence (Corbucci, 1968)
33. Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid (Peckinpah, 1973)
34. Fort Apache (Ford, 1948)
35. The Iron Horse (Ford, 1925)
36. The Furies (Mann, 1950)
37. Two Rode Together (Ford, 1961)
38. Buchanan Rides Alone (Boetticher, 1958) – ALSO RAN – Weird, when this seemed to be far more popular with this forum than it had ever been anywhere else.
39. Dark Command (Walsh, 1940) – ORPHAN
40. Comanche Station (Boetticher, 1960) – ALSO RAN, and I’m fine with that since there are a number of better films in the Ranown cycle.
41. In the Land of the War Canoes (Curtis, 1914) – ORPHAN
42. Garden of Evil (Hathaway, 1954) – ORPHAN - Domino (I think) was right that the second half doesn’t live up to the promise of the first, but that first half is outstanding, with some incredibly creative use of landscape, stitched together to make the character’s odyssey compelling.
43. Vera Cruz (Aldrich, 1954) – As gloriously florid in its own way as Johnny Guitar.
44. Colorado Territory (Walsh, 1949)
45. Ride in the Whirlwind (Hellman, 1965) – ALSO RAN – Though I’m sure it wouldn’t be if a good transfer were more readily available. I had to space my Hellmans out, but they’re all excellent.
46. Go West (Keaton, 1925)
47. Keoma (Castellari, 1976) – ORPHAN
48. The Gunfighter (King, 1950)
49. I Shot Jesse James (Fuller, 1949) – ALSO RAN - Not a patch on Fuller’s Forty Guns, but here because I remember when I was watching the final section of Dominik’s okay film that all this had already been done so much better.
50. Backlash (Sturges, 1956)

Looks like I'm too late for the party; but I've been watching a whole bunch of Japanese films in the past month, and hadn't watched all the Westerns, including revisions I had planned to watch.

I'd be interested in tracking down that proper widescreen 'China 9 Liberty 37', zedz.

Carlotta has a nice mini-box-sets of three other classic Hellmans; the two other Westerns, 'Cockfighter', and a couple of interesting docs. which you would do worse than investing in

[Perkins Cobb]

Glad to see The Searchers was not #1, although it's been so long since I've seen Man of the West I can't remember how strongly I feel about it. Sorry to see so little love, on the whole, for the revisionist westerns of the 70s.

Out of my own "orphans," the two I recommend most highly are

(1) Mann's unjustly neglected Devil's Doorway (astonishing compositions and action; great downbeat ending; bitter Robert Taylor performance that anticipates Party Girl)
(2) The Long Riders (typical Walter Hill grit, and the fraternal stunt casting works brilliantly)

[Cold Bishop]

I'm so happy for number one. Couldn't be a better movie. Totally makes up for number two.

Oh, I don't know, I quite like them both

However, I don't think this late entry bodes well for #3... which is too bad, since it's actually kind of awesome.

[Nothing]

I'm guessing that either tarpliot and/or Gringo Tex got overlooked (can't believe I'm the only one who voted for Stranger on Horseback!)

zedz, where is China 9, Liberty 37 available uncut & in widescreen (other than a theatrical screening, of course)? Re: Ride in the Whirlwind, I picked up the anamorphic Japanese DVD in Tokyo a few years back, the quality is very good, optional subs and it also has a commentary track (and isn't there also an Anchor Bay edition?)

[Cold Bishop]

I'm also interested in your source for C9:L37... I know of a few people who have it, but they charge awfully steep prices for a bootleg.

[tarpilot]

I'm guessing that either tarpliot and/or Gringo Tex got overlooked (can't believe I'm the only one who voted for Stranger on Horseback!)

Nope, my orphan babies were well accounted for (and I'll be mounting promotional defenses for them in good time). I do wish I had moved Seven Men From Now up a bit higher (I think I had it at number 25 or so), but I'm very happy to see I'm not the only fan of Blood on the Moon here.

[knives]

Why didn't you pester everyone with that one? It looks absolutely genius and I wish I had seen it in time.

[Cold Bishop]

Forget Stranger on Horseback... surely I couldn't have been the only one to vote for Lust in the Dust!

[Nothing]

What, Stranger on Horseback? It was GringoTex's swapsie... What impressed me about this film was the combination of, on the one hand, the psychological nuance with which Tourneur sketches his unusually venal supporting cast and, on the other, the incredibly streamlined plot. This is the kind of taut adult B-western that Ride Lonesome wants to be. An obvious weakness might be the cousin's convenient defection to the hero's side in the last 10 minutes, although even this has a certain psychological realism if you recall the dull toady she is otherwise due to spend the rest of her days with. Despite these subtleties, it's still a trad heroic western at heart, and a far cry from the radical groundbreaking genius that is Quien Sabe / Bullet for the General (glad to see this ranking, albeit far too low - a few sensible folks lurking out there, clearly!)

Hopefully this final rejig will correct the frankly embarassing absence of Bloody Sam from the Top 10...

Japanese Ride in the Whirlwind is on Amazon Japan. Seems to be OOP also, and going for about the same price as the R1 VCI. Both widescreen, although the Japanese disc has the benefit of anamorphic enhancement.

[Lighthouse]

I'm also interested in your source for C9:L37... I know of a few people who have it, but they charge awfully steep prices for a bootleg.

Trade it with someone who has it. It is a copy made from TV and looks damn good.