Sounds like The Matrix!John Cope wrote:Sounds awesome!David Edelstein wrote:But the psychological twists in The Dark Knight—especially the transformation of Dent into “Two-Face”—are baffling as drama. They play as if they’d been penned by Oxford philosophy majors trying to tone up a piece of American pop—to turn it into an uncivil Shavian dialogue, Don Juan in Hell with mutilations and truck crashes.
The Dark Knight Trilogy (Christopher Nolan, 2005-2012)
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Tom Hagen
- Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:35 pm
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John Cope
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:40 pm
- Location: where the simulacrum is true
My own interest in this film has only been increasing since the "negative" reviews have started streaming in. I'm sure part of this has to do with my own latent contrarianism but it's more than just that.
Normally I loathe the drive to make films of this sort "realistic" (as per my high regard for Speed Racer) and the Heat comparisons (though I love Heat) seemed to me to miss the point and did not encourage me. Still, I also love Begins, despite its motivating psychological realism. I can only imagine that it was because it maintained such a high level of accomplishment--except for and until the anti-climactic after thought of an ending. But Dark Knight sounds as if it's even further along this road and that can only be a good thing by my account. If you're going to make gestures toward "psychological realism" then take it all the way, until the gestures explode full bore into full blown counter-myth making, which is what it looks like we'll get.
In that respect, this concern over the action scenes also seems misplaced. In Begins, of course, Nolan applied a purposeful stealth aesthetic in order to emphasize that element of the character. Here, however, once again things sound even that much more developed. The fractured action scenes reflect a fragmenting psyche but also the chaotic messiness of morally ambiguous vigilantism.
Finally, I want to reference my favorite moment in any of these films, which just happened to be in Batman Returns. It's that brief little moment in which Batman, Catwoman and Penguin face each other across the street as the surrounding set systematically explodes in a wall of fire. I love this moment for its expressionistic qualities but mainly because I view it as a perfect merger of the desired "realism" with heightened iconic posturing. The artificiality of these characters is underlined by their static positioning, always maintaining character even as the set--which feels equally artificial as it is turned into a hyperbolized and subjectivized backdrop--goes up like the inferno version of a Universal Studios tour attraction. It's obviously their theater but now more than ever we see them not as superheroes/villains but as three tremendously fucked up people interfacing through elaborate costume. If Dark Knight can provide just a few moments of this sort of sublimity in the midst of all the rage and carnage I will be plenty satisfied.
Normally I loathe the drive to make films of this sort "realistic" (as per my high regard for Speed Racer) and the Heat comparisons (though I love Heat) seemed to me to miss the point and did not encourage me. Still, I also love Begins, despite its motivating psychological realism. I can only imagine that it was because it maintained such a high level of accomplishment--except for and until the anti-climactic after thought of an ending. But Dark Knight sounds as if it's even further along this road and that can only be a good thing by my account. If you're going to make gestures toward "psychological realism" then take it all the way, until the gestures explode full bore into full blown counter-myth making, which is what it looks like we'll get.
In that respect, this concern over the action scenes also seems misplaced. In Begins, of course, Nolan applied a purposeful stealth aesthetic in order to emphasize that element of the character. Here, however, once again things sound even that much more developed. The fractured action scenes reflect a fragmenting psyche but also the chaotic messiness of morally ambiguous vigilantism.
Finally, I want to reference my favorite moment in any of these films, which just happened to be in Batman Returns. It's that brief little moment in which Batman, Catwoman and Penguin face each other across the street as the surrounding set systematically explodes in a wall of fire. I love this moment for its expressionistic qualities but mainly because I view it as a perfect merger of the desired "realism" with heightened iconic posturing. The artificiality of these characters is underlined by their static positioning, always maintaining character even as the set--which feels equally artificial as it is turned into a hyperbolized and subjectivized backdrop--goes up like the inferno version of a Universal Studios tour attraction. It's obviously their theater but now more than ever we see them not as superheroes/villains but as three tremendously fucked up people interfacing through elaborate costume. If Dark Knight can provide just a few moments of this sort of sublimity in the midst of all the rage and carnage I will be plenty satisfied.
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm
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Murdoch
- Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:59 am
- Location: Upstate NY
I'm in this camp as well, the only Batman comic I've read is The Killing Joke, and the animated series did well not only with the merger of humor and darkness, but also presented an interesting version of Batman himself. When Bruce Wayne was without the mask he was warm and receptive to those around him, a seemingly normal person, while in the guise of Batman he became this dark abstract completely separated from his unmasked self. There was a distinct separation between these two identities that worked so well that when I would see Wayne in his costume without the mask on I would almost be surprised it was him at all.domino harvey wrote:I'm no comic book fan so I'm not the right person for this argument, but I always found the tone of the early 90s Batman animated series walked the line between what Burton did and what Nolan would do and ended up better than both-- dark without being humorless.
For me the films have yet to capture that distinction, that when Wayne puts on the disguise he transforms into something so mysterious I'm not even sure he understands it. I suppose it's because the films tend to focus more on Wayne as the Batman - Begins centering on how he became Batman, the rest on his crime-fighting - instead of just Bruce Wayne.
Although, I think I'm asking too much of a blockbuster, but maybe Nolan will get it right now that the origin story is done. Personally, I would love to see some type of pay-cable series, a la Dexter, that could actually explore Batman's inner turmoil.
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Darth Lavender
- Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:24 pm
Well, I just had the immense frustration of stumbling across a Two-Face picture by accident. (Wasn't even Batman related. I was watching some web comedy video thing, and it cut to a picture of Two Face for a punchline)
After doing a bit of checking online, it seems the image I saw (pretty widely available online) was a "pre-rendering" that got leaked a month or two ago.
More recently, someone at a press-screening or preview screening or something took a few cell-phone pics during a Two-Face scene, and though the quality is obviously bad it confirms that the 'pre-rendering' really is an accurate representation of the makeup design.
(Really frustrating thing, I'm planning on seeing the movie tomorrow (opening day in Australia) anyway)
Well, as for the image itself, it's pretty darn impressive. The MPAA has now lost all credibility by letting this into a PG-13 rated film (I mean, they never had much credibility to begin with, but anyway...)
I'll firstly just say it's very detailed and quite extreme.
Now, I'm going to go into more detail about the image. For those who don't want to see the actual spoiler-pic itself, but don't mind hearing about it. (The most spoiler-concious of you might want to just stop reading)
While the earlier Two-Face's have had blue or bright red faces, this one is very charred and grey (in keeping with his, presumably, being set alight at some point) Works very well, that aspect (I always kind of liked the sharp color contrast of the animated two-face (flesh on one side, bright blue on the other) and was wondering if Dark Knight could realistically manage something similar. Well, they've done an excellent job in that regard, with a realistic but distinctive shade of grey covering most of his 'evil' side.
The eye is completely wide and lidless (like the comic and cartoons, I suppose) and most distinctly the bones & muscle around the mouth are completely exposed. There's a little bit of chin bone peeking through, a whole lot of little parts were the dried, black skin has cracked apart to reveal red and bloody skin underneath, but most distinctively the side of his mouth is completely open. Teeth are clearly visible, as well as some strands of exposed jaw-muscles which will probably move while he talks.
Beyond that, his 'evil' side is completely bald and crispy and if this character showed up in an 'R' rated movie, I'd wonder why it wasn't 'NC17'
Also, an interesting side note (probably old news) I saw one pic of Joker without clown makeup, and he clearly has two scars running down the sides of his cheeks (I recall there was originally some uncertainty about that)
After doing a bit of checking online, it seems the image I saw (pretty widely available online) was a "pre-rendering" that got leaked a month or two ago.
More recently, someone at a press-screening or preview screening or something took a few cell-phone pics during a Two-Face scene, and though the quality is obviously bad it confirms that the 'pre-rendering' really is an accurate representation of the makeup design.
(Really frustrating thing, I'm planning on seeing the movie tomorrow (opening day in Australia) anyway)
Well, as for the image itself, it's pretty darn impressive. The MPAA has now lost all credibility by letting this into a PG-13 rated film (I mean, they never had much credibility to begin with, but anyway...)
I'll firstly just say it's very detailed and quite extreme.
Now, I'm going to go into more detail about the image. For those who don't want to see the actual spoiler-pic itself, but don't mind hearing about it. (The most spoiler-concious of you might want to just stop reading)
While the earlier Two-Face's have had blue or bright red faces, this one is very charred and grey (in keeping with his, presumably, being set alight at some point) Works very well, that aspect (I always kind of liked the sharp color contrast of the animated two-face (flesh on one side, bright blue on the other) and was wondering if Dark Knight could realistically manage something similar. Well, they've done an excellent job in that regard, with a realistic but distinctive shade of grey covering most of his 'evil' side.
The eye is completely wide and lidless (like the comic and cartoons, I suppose) and most distinctly the bones & muscle around the mouth are completely exposed. There's a little bit of chin bone peeking through, a whole lot of little parts were the dried, black skin has cracked apart to reveal red and bloody skin underneath, but most distinctively the side of his mouth is completely open. Teeth are clearly visible, as well as some strands of exposed jaw-muscles which will probably move while he talks.
Beyond that, his 'evil' side is completely bald and crispy and if this character showed up in an 'R' rated movie, I'd wonder why it wasn't 'NC17'
Also, an interesting side note (probably old news) I saw one pic of Joker without clown makeup, and he clearly has two scars running down the sides of his cheeks (I recall there was originally some uncertainty about that)
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm
I saw that spoiler cellphone pic by accident as well, though not in a video. It didn't look any worse than the corpses in one of those Brendon Fraser Mummy movies, and those were all PG-13. I didn't even realize Dent was going to become Two-Face in this movie until I saw it though, which was like doubly "D'oh!"
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Darth Lavender
- Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:24 pm
The 'Spoiler' wasn't too graphic (actually, looked like it might be questionable CGI) the "pre-rendering" is a considerably larger and more detailed picture. Perhaps "NC17" was an exageration, but it's pretty firmly into 'R' territory.
Having said that, I'm started to wonder if some detail was taken out later.
I see your point about The Mummy, on the technicalities of the deformity/mutilation, but those were practically cartoons. If Dark Knight is as grim and realistic as the reviews say, then the same level of deformity should be much more disturbing.
Admittedly, though, after just reading a review which talks about how unsuitable for children the film is, but doesn't mention the obvious example of Two Face, I'm starting to wonder if the pre-rendering really did lose a lot of details before the film was finalised
Having said that, I'm started to wonder if some detail was taken out later.
I see your point about The Mummy, on the technicalities of the deformity/mutilation, but those were practically cartoons. If Dark Knight is as grim and realistic as the reviews say, then the same level of deformity should be much more disturbing.
Admittedly, though, after just reading a review which talks about how unsuitable for children the film is, but doesn't mention the obvious example of Two Face, I'm starting to wonder if the pre-rendering really did lose a lot of details before the film was finalised
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THX1378
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:35 am
- Location: Fresno, CA
Just got in from the preview screening and belive the hype because it's all true. Warners was smart to save this film as the last major comic book film of the summer because this is a real gut punch of a film. And I think with what they knew they had on there hands it was wise to keep it out of the way of Iron Man and Hulk, because Knight is in a whole other league all together. In fact, all together this film feels as far away from what a summer film should feel like. This isn't a feel good superhero film. In fact, I would have felt better with Warners releasing the film in the fall where it could have had it's chances getting a nomination for best picture come Oscar time. It's true what people are saying, this is the first comic book film that I feel could get a best picture nomination. And where as most comic book films have some gimmer of hope, this film is a ruthless and relentless ride that breaks all the rules of what a comic book film will and should be. Knight is a mean ride into the roles people play as far as good and evil go. This film is the complete opposite of Iron man. Where Iron Man played the action fast and with some great laughs, Knight plays and executes the action in positively diabolical and evil way with a singular story that has some laughs, but you keep checking yourself because you really shouldn't be laughing with whats going on. And Nolan does this so and makes it all look so easy. The man proves with this film that he's is one of the top five directors working today. He gives everyone what they want. The Joker story finally done right. Everything has been said about Ledger that needs to be said. He's that good in the role and unless someone less comes along with a role to give him a run for his money, the Oscar is his. The Batman story where he doesn't come out the hero and gets put through the wringer and drudged through hell and back. Again, just like in Begins, this is the Batman story we want to see. The one where he questions if Batman is what the city needs, or if being Batman and having him around makes things ten times worse. Batman for once using his detective skills. Begins was only a set up for what was in store for him. Eckhart's Harvey Dent is heartbreaking and fantastic. I think he deserves as much credit as Ledger does for his performance. The only thing I can nag about is that Ledger does over shadow just about everyone in the film. So everything that everyone said is true. Replace the man that dresses as a bat and wears a cape, and a man whom wears makeup and you have one hell of a crime epic. I keep thinking back to what Martin Scorsese said in EW about if he was asked to make a comic book film, would he do it? He answered back that he wouldn't know how to make one. If he was to make one, he'd make something like this.
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New Groundhog
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 5:22 am
Armond White's review is up.
My favorite bit:
My favorite bit:
Unlike Nicholson’s multileveled characterization, Ledger reduces The Joker to one-note ham-acting and trite symbolism. If you fell for the evil-versus-evil antagonism of There Will Be Blood, then The Dark Knight should be the movie of your wretched dreams.
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
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Antoine Doinel
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Listen to clips from the score here.
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flyonthewall2983
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
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Antoine Doinel
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GoldenPilgrim
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I caught this on IMAX last night, and I'm not sure what to add that hasn't already been said.
First off, I had never been to an IMAX theatre before, I walked in and saw the screen and figured I was going to be very sick by the end of the film, turns out that wasn't the case at all. I'm not a huge tech guy, I don't really care about blu-ray or HD, but I was so sucked into all of the IMAX footage used (about a quarter of the film is in that format - the opening, all the major action scenes, and all the establishing shots), that I almost recommend holding out until you can see it in the IMAX theatre.
Anyways, I'm sure I'm still riding the high from just seeing it, but this is the best comic book film I've ever seen. It fits really well with the Loeb and Sale Batman comics (The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Haunted Knight), taking pointers from those comics and weaving their own interesting storyline. And being a fan of those Batman comics specifically, not necessarily Batman comics in general, made the film that much more thrilling.
Like those comics, the film really focuses on Batman and Dent's parallel struggles, even tweaking Dent's back story a little to really nail them together, while Joker is just the show stealing wild card. Acting, everything, was really spot on, from Gordon's, Wayne's, and Dent's isolation to the crime escalation caused by Batman to the Joker's love of Batman, it felt good to see it all done so right.
My only gripe is that they went a LITTLE overboard with the gadgets in this one, leading to an awkward comment on The Patriot Act. Uhh, you'll see I guess. But they really toned down those, "whoa Batman is liiike so BADASS," moments in this film, really really toned them down.
I doubt I would have loved it AS MUCH as I did if I hadn't been into those Loeb and Sale comics, but like someone mentioned earlier, take away the Bat suit and the clown make up and you've still got a crime and action epic. It was one those films where I was sitting there, 2+ hours into it, pissed that it was ever going to end.
And goddammit Armond! Encounters at the End of the World is hipster nihilism? He's really lost it.
First off, I had never been to an IMAX theatre before, I walked in and saw the screen and figured I was going to be very sick by the end of the film, turns out that wasn't the case at all. I'm not a huge tech guy, I don't really care about blu-ray or HD, but I was so sucked into all of the IMAX footage used (about a quarter of the film is in that format - the opening, all the major action scenes, and all the establishing shots), that I almost recommend holding out until you can see it in the IMAX theatre.
Anyways, I'm sure I'm still riding the high from just seeing it, but this is the best comic book film I've ever seen. It fits really well with the Loeb and Sale Batman comics (The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Haunted Knight), taking pointers from those comics and weaving their own interesting storyline. And being a fan of those Batman comics specifically, not necessarily Batman comics in general, made the film that much more thrilling.
Like those comics, the film really focuses on Batman and Dent's parallel struggles, even tweaking Dent's back story a little to really nail them together, while Joker is just the show stealing wild card. Acting, everything, was really spot on, from Gordon's, Wayne's, and Dent's isolation to the crime escalation caused by Batman to the Joker's love of Batman, it felt good to see it all done so right.
My only gripe is that they went a LITTLE overboard with the gadgets in this one, leading to an awkward comment on The Patriot Act. Uhh, you'll see I guess. But they really toned down those, "whoa Batman is liiike so BADASS," moments in this film, really really toned them down.
I doubt I would have loved it AS MUCH as I did if I hadn't been into those Loeb and Sale comics, but like someone mentioned earlier, take away the Bat suit and the clown make up and you've still got a crime and action epic. It was one those films where I was sitting there, 2+ hours into it, pissed that it was ever going to end.
And goddammit Armond! Encounters at the End of the World is hipster nihilism? He's really lost it.
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tavernier
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:18 pm
We could go back and forth endlessly--so I'll refrain from one-upping your quote.domino harvey wrote:I beg to differ:tavernier wrote:Armond's greatest line ever
Appealing to adolescent jadedness and boredom, Nolan revamps millionaire Bruce Wayne’s transformation into the crime-fighter Batman (played by indie-zombie Christian Bale), by making him a twisted icon, what the kids call “sick.”
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
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Jean-Luc Garbo
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Cat Power's last record? I bet he loves Feist.domino harvey wrote:It's easy for anyone to play this game at home: Just close your eyes and picture the most MOR, forgettable pap that is allegedly outside of but not far from the mainstream, and you'll arrive at a band Armond White loves.
Anyway, I read the AV Club interview and I have to say I was impressed that MG took the film and her character so seriously. I would have thought she just wanted to get on the money train here.
Last edited by Jean-Luc Garbo on Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm
Funny you mention that because I considered Feist as an example-- I'd definitely place Feist's last album into my category, but the iPod commercial's made her "a hipster" so that's out for Armond. Yet I can definitely see him swooning over the Greatest.Jean-Luc Garbo wrote:Cat Power's last record? I bet he loves Feist.domino harvey wrote:It's easy for anyone to play this game at home: Just close your eyes and picture the most MOR, forgettable pap that is allegedly outside of but not far from the mainstream, and you'll arrive at a band Armond White loves.
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Antoine Doinel
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Well, we know Armond digs his iPod commercial music but, Feist may be too mainstream for him after doing this.
P.S. I like Feist
P.S. I like Feist
Last edited by Antoine Doinel on Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jean-Luc Garbo
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:55 am
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Hey, nothing wrong with Feist - yet - she's the best make-out music I've found.Antoine Doinel wrote:Well, we know Armond digs his iPod commercial music but, Feist may be too mainstream for him after doing this.
P.S. I like Feist