Technical Issues and Questions

[sopordave]

This may be a little off topic, but it seemed to be the best place to ask this question:

Is HDTV Calibration worth it, and is it possible to do it without a professional?

I just recently entered the market for purchasing a HDTV. While I was browsing at Best Buy yesterday, a salesman approached me and started telling me things that I either already knew or didn't matter, until he brought up calibration. According to him (an uneducated salesman),

1. It makes a noticeable improvement
2. It requires a trained professional with a $10,000 piece of equipment that jacks into the back of the TV
3. It costs $300
4. It works by allowing for more shades of each color and tuned brightness for your environment than are not normally available out of the box.

This infuriated me.

I can't refute #1, because I have not seen a side by side comparison.

The equipment for #2 seems unlikely. If the pro is jacking into the TV, then all he needs is a laptop, some sort of data cable, and software to make the changes. This does not require $10,000 of equipment, but might require an afternoon training session.

The price is higher than I would want to pay somebody to do it. In fact, I would much rather spend money on buying the cable (unless it is a regular serial cable, in which I have many laying around) and the software to do it myself.

And the worst part, in my mind, is the fact that this kind of business exists at all. If all it is is a simple software change, then there is no reason why the TV manufacture doesn't allow the user to do this in the first place. I understand that out-of-the-box settings might be overly bright for retail display purposes, but it's ridiculous to think that I should have to pay somebody to gain special access to my TV.

So, for those of you that have had this done, did you feel that it was worth it? And if you don't mind, I would like to know how much it cost vs. the cost of the television.

Are there alternatives? I am a very technical person, and have no doubt that I would be able to do this on my own, given that the technology to do so is available to the public, and not just to the "professionals".

[Antoine Doinel]

From what little I know of calibration, what I do know is that if it's not done correctly you can seriously screw up your TV to the point of no return. It's best left in the hands of "professionals" is just for the fact that if they screw up, you have a way out. That said, if you really want to do it yourself, all you have to do is Google the model number of your TV and "calibration" and you will come upon a plethora of hacks to do it yourself.

I guess the real question is, how necessary is this or how discernable is it to the human eye.

[Godot]

Hi sopordave,
I usually don't listen to the BestBuy or Fry's salespeople, unless they are offering me a price reduction. I have three HDTVs, and have set up five more for family and friends; I really enjoy spending the time to adjust them myself. I have not hired a professional technician for calibration. But depending on what you mean by "calibration", you have many tools at your disposal before you take that step. Here's the order I would recommend modifying the settings on your TV once it's installed in your room:

1. This is probably a "no duh" to you, but it's surprising how many people don't realize they can modify the video settings. Your TV will have a number of pre-programmed settings, such as "natural", "game", "cinema", "movie", "standard", "vibrant", etc. The TVs on display in stores are showing the brightest, highest-contrast, highest-color fields, in order to stand out from the other sets. Many TVs come pre-set to that "vibrant" state. One family member still uses the "optimum" setting the set came with, which is garish and hideous, because it grabs his attention and makes him think that's what HDTV is all about (of course, he also stretches all 4x3 content to fill the frame, because he doesn't want to waste that expensive HDTV space by using sidebars ... shiver). There will usually be one setting, called "user" or some such, which is open for you to manipulate (you can modify the other pre-sets, but they may limit what you can change; for example, if I try to tone down the "game" settings, I can't change the color temperature). There will also be one called "cinema/movie" that is best for your default; everything will look best with this setting, mostly because of the low color temperature and low (or off) sharpness (which is mostly edge enhancement). Try "cinema" and if you like it, you're done. If you want to play, do so with the "user" field.

2. Find the thread in AVSForum for your brand/model. Usually you will find some knowledgeable poster who lists his preferred settings, and in some cases they will list their professionally calibrated settings (though this can create a fuss). For example, for one of my sets (Pioneer 6010FD), a user named D-Nice has an excellent list of his settings, which I then adjusted slightly for my preference. But he did 95% of the homework and heavy lifting for me.

3. Pick up a disc with THX certification (such as some Pixar and Disney discs); on it, you'll find a helpful calibration program in the extra features, which can walk you through modifying your settings (make sure you only change the "user" mode). I use these quite often for setting up others' TVs.

4. Rent or buy a calibration disc (I prefer Digital Video Essentials over Avia); Netflix has several. Again, this will walk you through adjusting your settings for your eye preference, your room, etc. Some parts of these discs are annoying, hence the ease of using the THX calibration instead. But I started with the DVE on my first HDTV.

5. Stepping up to hardware, you can try the SpyderTV. It has it's fans and critics, is a bit pricey, but you can readjust at your whim.
Here is the AVSForum thread with lots of detail, manuals, etc.

What TV are you considering?

[sopordave]

What TV are you considering?

I haven't quite decided yet, but right now I'm leaning towards some 46" Samsung. I don't know about a specific model yet, as I'm still pricing and trying to get a feel for the competition.

Thanks for your help on this. I am familiar with the normal calibration techniques you described, it was just the "professional" calibration described (using a laptop connected to the TV) that was new to me.

[domino harvey]

I hope someone can help me out, because I am really puzzled by this:

Using my Oppo and a Vizio HDTV, I'm able to watch widescreen PAL discs without converting the signal to NTSC (ie in native PAL), yet whenever the PAL disc is in fullscreen, the picture is heavily combed and I have to switch the Oppo to convert to NTSC, which leaves the conversion jaggies on text and diagonal lines. I output to 1080i, but I played around with literally every output between 480 and that and all of them leave combing with the fullscreen PAL. What is causing widescreen to display seamlessly yet full-frame to be so messed up?

[Michael Kerpan]

Query

Do LCD and LCD TVs overscan at all?

[Morbii]

Do LCD and LCD TVs overscan at all?

Yes, but a good television will let you adjust it. I'm not certain if they will all let you adjust it ALL of the way, but I know you can adjust it with many of them (both of my Sonys have had this capability). As far as an LCD monitor, I think it's less likely that you can if you're using it as a TV.

[Godot]

Using my Oppo and a Vizio HDTV, I'm able to watch widescreen PAL discs without converting the signal to NTSC (ie in native PAL), yet whenever the PAL disc is in fullscreen, the picture is heavily combed and I have to switch the Oppo to convert to NTSC, which leaves the conversion jaggies on text and diagonal lines. I output to 1080i, but I played around with literally every output between 480 and that and all of them leave combing with the fullscreen PAL. What is causing widescreen to display seamlessly yet full-frame to be so messed up?

Can you please list your model numbers for the Oppo and Vizio? And what fullscreen PAL discs had images that were combing?
Why do you "output to 1080i"?

[domino harvey]

Oppo 980-H connected via HDMI cable to the Vizio VX37L
It's not just one or two fullscreen PAL discs, it's all of them

[Godot]

Thanks, Domino. Please forgive my incredible ignorance (I should just have that printed on my forehead), but I'm confused about your setup. The Oppo can indeed play both NTSC and PAL format discs, but the Vizio (according to specs) can only display NTSC at maximum 720p resolution. So that makes me hypothesize:
1. Sending the video as 1080i may problematic. The Vizio must then down-convert to 720p. Seems like your best option is to match the video output to the screen resolution, so as little conversion as possible occurs. Also ...
2. I would think the Oppo de-interlacing chip (for which they are lauded) is superior to the Vizio. If so, you should again send the signal as 720p, rather than ask the Vizio to line-double (as their spec lists, not de-interlacing) the i signal to 720p resolution.
3. Since the Vizio specs list only NTSC, it's possible that if you are sending the signal as PAL, the TV has to do a conversion (which is probably less successful than the Oppo doing that conversion). I can't find anywhere in the specs that you can change the refresh rate from 60 to 50 Hz. So I don't understand your assertion that you can watch the discs in their native PAL. Am I missing something?
4. As for why the fullscreen images would appear worse than widescreen, I don't know. Perhaps they merely show the warts more, since they have more visual information in the vertical dimension that must be de-interlaced and converted to NTSC. If you are comparing to a 1.66:1 widescreen image this would not be applicable, but the 1.85:1 and up images would have less vertical information than the academy ratio.

[domino harvey]

I appreciate you trying to find some answers, but a couple things: The Vizio VX37L supports all formats up to and including 1080i (It even says so right on the TV!), so unless I'm missing something, doesn't it benefit from Oppo's upscaling to 1080 output? Or are you saying that despite that, it's maximum resolution is always downgraded to 720p? Also I thought you weren't supposed to set a DVD player to progressive when it connects via an HDMI cable? Lastly, the TV does appear to display PAL without converting to NTSC, as it's automatic and there's a slight hiccup on the TV when the format changes. There's several "write in" questions on the Vizio sight where they confirm it plays PAL or NTSC for travelers who simply must take their TV overseas with them!

[Godot]

Hmm. This Vizio's native resolution is 1366x768 pixels. So that means the maximum resolution it can support is 720p. (A 1080i or p set would have pixel count around 1920x1080.) Just because the Vizio advertises that it can accept all resolutions up to 1080p doesn't mean it can display those resolutions. It would down-convert anything 1080i/p to 720p. The setting of the internal HD tuner would have the same issue, down-converting 1080i (such as most HD signals) to 720p (which ABC/ESPN broadcast, since it is better for fast-motion sports).

I have never heard that you should not set the DVD player to progressive scan if using HDMI connections. Can you elaborate, or find a source? It should make no difference. My inclination is to do the de-interlacing at the device with the best chip; in this case, I trust the Oppo (Faroudja) chip more than the Vizio. For some of my own set-ups, however, I send the signal as 480i and have either my receiver or TV do the de-interlacing. Just depends, and you can do A/B comparisons to see which device does the best job.

As to displaying in PAL, I agree that a number of forum posts indicate that PAL is displayed on the TV, and that you can take the TV to Europe and still view PAL. However, that does not seem to apply for the coaxial input, which leads me to hypothesize that the TV can not natively display at 50 Hz. The other inputs (HDMI, components, S-video) can show a PAL signal feed, but my thought was that the PAL is being converted on those inputs (which go through video processing anyway, unlike the coaxial input) to NTSC, which is the native TV format (at 60 hz). I don't have the TV, however, so I could be absolutely dead-nuts wrong about this.

You kept updating your reply while I was typing mine, it was hard to keep up with your comments!

[domino harvey]

Thanks for your help, I've reverted to 720p

[Matt]

Here's a question: I've just made the jump to HD, replacing TV, DVD player, and TiVo. I'm trying to be cheap and not get a new receiver as well. My current receiver is a Sony, about 9 years old. It does Dolby Digital and DTS, and has digital and RCA inputs, but no HDMI. Can I connect the DVD player and the TiVo directly to the TV via HDMI for the video but use RCA cables or coax audio cables to connect the audio outs on each to the receiver?

[fiddlesticks]

Here's a question: I've just made the jump to HD, replacing TV, DVD player, and TiVo. I'm trying to be cheap and not get a new receiver as well. My current receiver is a Sony, about 9 years old. It does Dolby Digital and DTS, and has digital and RCA inputs, but no HDMI. Can I connect the DVD player and the TiVo directly to the TV via HDMI for the video but use RCA cables or coax audio cables to connect the audio outs on each to the receiver?

Yes.
I have an Oppo DVD player which is connected to my TV via HDMI and to my ancient receiver via RCA and it works fine. I can't vouch for TiVo, but I don't see why that would be any different.

[Matt]

So, do you just turn off the TV speakers or turn the volume on them all the way down? I suppose it will depend on the model of TV.

Boy, I can't wait to have a whole new flavor of cable salad.

[fiddlesticks]

So, do you just turn off the TV speakers or turn the volume on them all the way down? I suppose it will depend on the model of TV.

Either way. On my current Sceptre LCD I have the volume set to 0, because I don't think there's a 'speakers off' option (not sure that I ever looked.) On my old Sanyo CRT I had the speakers set to 'off.' Both work equivalently well.

[Darth Lavender]

Toshiba keeps persuading the consumer that they need not go for Blu Ray - upconverting their regular DVD's will be just fine.

Of course they are, they lost the format war.

Actually for the typical J6P (Joe Six Pack, learnt the acronym from another forum) upconverting really is the better solution.
These people are likely to be impressed as heck by what a little edge-enchancement, etc. can do. Even to J6P, it may not be 'quite' HD, but add in the difference between "buying an upconverter" and "buying a (more expensive) bluray player, then rebuying all you favourite movies at $30 - $40 each" and J6P might well choose the upconverter.

[Luke M]

Actually for the typical J6P (Joe Six Pack, learnt the acronym from another forum) upconverting really is the better solution.
These people are likely to be impressed as heck by what a little edge-enchancement, etc. can do. Even to J6P, it may not be 'quite' HD, but add in the difference between "buying an upconverting" and "buying an upconverter, then rebuying all you favourite movies at $30 - $40 each" and J6P might well choose the upconverter.

I can't even tell the difference between an upconverted DVD versus a regular one. Meanwhile, J6P can barely tell the difference between a DVD and a Blu-ray.

There's really no comparison between upconversion and Blu-ray.

That's just my 2 cents.

[daniel p]

^ what he said

upconverting DVDs with my panny DVD player, and/or with my PS3 makes minimal difference if any to non-upconverted DVDs viewed on my 50" panny.

and the diff between upconverted and Blu is astonishing.

I am amazed every time I read people saying the diff is minimal - Blu blows it out of the water to my eyes.

[Godot]

I can't even tell the difference between an upconverted DVD versus a regular one.

^ what he said ... upconverting DVDs with my panny DVD player, and/or with my PS3 makes minimal difference if any to non-upconverted DVDs viewed on my 50" panny.

I'm a bit confused by these comments. I wonder if you can not tell the difference because your TV is doing its own upconversion, spoiling your ability to do a strict A/B comparison.

How are you comparing "an upconverted DVD vs. a regular one"? Are you turning the upconversion on and off on your DVD player? Are you comparing with two inputs to the TV, one from a DVD player set to upconvert (to 720p, 1080p), one from a DVD player sending 480i? If your TV is 720p (or 1080p), it will automatically upconvert all inputs to 720p; it has to, that's the native resolution. If your TV is a good quality, name brand (such as the Panasonic, or Pioneer), it probably has a fairly good upconverting chip to do this scaling and conversion. The main reason to buy an upconverting DVD player (or even a stand-alone scaler), or look for this function on a high-end AV receiver, is if those components have better chips to do this function than your TV. Some of the Blu-ray and HD-DVD players have very good chips for upconversion. Same with some mid-tier and upper-tier receivers.

[miless]

I have a regular DVD player with an upconversion feature and I find the results spectacular (I am viewing on an LCD flat panel with full HDMI wiring).

a film such as Japón looks incredibly terrible on a regular DVD player set-up, but with my upconverting DVD player it looks like magic (same goes for almost everything).

[Morbii]

miles, did you go from composite to component or HDMI?

If I recall correctly, the results from switching to component with progressive scan from composite was greater than getting an upscaling player with a good chip. However, that isn't to knock upscaling, as it does produce nice results.

I am also in the camp that feels that (assuming the transfer is done properly) a Blu-ray blows any upconverting out of the water.

[chaddoli]

Yes, upscaling through HDMI is impressive. I was very happy with my Oppo upscaling player. Then I got a PS3 and there really is no comparison. This is not to make everyone who has yet to upgrade feel inadequate, there just shouldn't be any confusion about this issue (maybe there isn't anyway). But, I am very satisfied with my upscaling player and won't be replacing my old titles, I will just be mostly purchasing Blus from now on.

[Davidspector]

Chaddoli or any other forum participant who might answer this:

I too have an Oppo, with HDMI connection to a Panasonic 50" plasma TV, and am quite happy with the upconverted image of my standard DVDs. As yet, I haven't gone to a Blu-ray but will before the year's end. My concern has to do with BD player's ability with standard DVDs. My understanding is that the image is rather lackluster, although I am hoping that there might be exception(s) to this. At the moment I am thinking of having two players - a BD and the Oppo for my standard DVDs. Any comments from participants will be appreciated.

Thanks.