456 The Taking of Power by Louis XIV

[Ovader]

Further on the title, I remember somebody calling it The Seizure of Power by Louis XIV - but I can't remember who. It might have been my course tutor at uni, but it may well have been Peter Brunette in his book on Rossellini. Unfortunately I don't have my copy easily available - can anyone confirm either way?

Peter Brunette and the other Peter (Bondanella) use The Rise to Power of Louis XIV in their respective books on Rossellini.

[Wittsdream]

Further on the title, I remember somebody calling it The Seizure of Power by Louis XIV - but I can't remember who. It might have been my course tutor at uni, but it may well have been Peter Brunette in his book on Rossellini. Unfortunately I don't have my copy easily available - can anyone confirm either way?

Peter Brunette and the other Peter (Bondanella) use The Rise to Power of Louis XIV in their respective books on Rossellini.

Brunette, in his 1987 Oxford University Press edition of Roberto Rossellini, only refers to the film as The Rise to Power of Louis XIV.

I've seen the film mentioned in numerous articles through the years, and have frankly never seen it issued with Criterion's currently proposed nomenclature.

Still, I am absolutely thrilled to finally have this seminal work in what promises to be a definitive edition.

[MichaelB]

I've seen the film mentioned in numerous articles through the years, and have frankly never seen it issued with Criterion's currently proposed nomenclature.

Neither have I, but it's arguably a more accurate rendition of "La prise de pouvoir" than the other two examples doing the rounds. "The Rise to Power" is too passive, and "The Seizure of Power" arguably too aggressive.

[Ovader]

Cinematheque Ontario uses The Rise of Louis XIV a.k.a. The Taking of Power of Louis XIV for their CINEMA OF INTELLIGENCE: A CENTENARY RETROSPECTIVE OF THE FILMS OF ROBERTO ROSSELLINI in late 2006. Another reference about the title appears in the description of the film:

Rossellini focuses on courtly intrigue after the death of Cardinal Mazarin, as the twenty-two-year-old Louis rises to power (or "takes power," as the French title suggests), moves to Versailles, and manipulates government ministers and nobles to both increase and maintain his authority.

[ellipsis7]

It's a difficult one -- 'Rise to Power' implies a natural ascendance with or without deliberate effort or intrigue, 'Taking of Power' the more accurate literal translation, implies a more proactive move, almost a coup, along with the simpler act of taking over control... I suppose the latter is probably the better, if less familiar, title...

[Florinaldo]

The original French title is also interesting. Instead of the more familiar and probably expected "prise du pouvoir", Rossellini uses "prise de pouvoir"

The former would indicate someone seizing power, by force perhaps, in an instance where he was not legitimately entitled to it. The latter suggests that power is assumed as intended by the natural order of things or according to the accepted rules. In this case, by the lawful heir to the throne.

[Lamourderer]

In his book of film history, Peter von Bagh called Louis XIV the best film of the sixties. Since reading that book and hearing most pleasant opinions on all the Rossellini's historical films, Louis XIV and the Eclipse set accompanying it have been the most anticipated additions to the collection for me in a very long time. Instant preorder.

[Jack Phillips]

The original French title is also interesting. Instead of the more familiar and probably expected "prise du pouvoir", Rossellini uses "prise de pouvoir"

The former would indicate someone seizing power, by force perhaps, in an instance where he was not legitimately entitled to it. The latter suggests that power is assumed as intended by the natural order of things or according to the accepted rules. In this case, by the lawful heir to the throne.

The English title should then be "The Assumption of Power . . . " ("Taking" being potentially misleading).

[MichaelB]

The English title should then be "The Assumption of Power . . . " ("Taking" being potentially misleading).

I agree - and it's a lot less clunky than "The Taking of Power", which sounds like a translation.

[ellipsis7]

Does Assumption not have an extra religious overtone, in English at least?...

There is a very interesting timeline in Adriano Apra's chapter, Rossellini's Historical Encyclopaedia, in the excellent BFI book Rossellini: Magician of the Real...

It shows how the LOUIS XIV film relates to CARTESIUS and BLAISE PASCAL as follows...

CARTESIUS covers the period 1613-1641 set in France and the Netherlands...

BLAISE PASCAL covers the period 1639-1662 set in Rouen and Paris

LOUIS XIV covers the period 1661-1682 set in Paris and Versailles

The philosophical juxtaposing with the political...

[colinr0380]

Does Assumption not have an extra religious overtone, in English at least?...

Given Lous XIV's belief in the divine right of kings that might still be appropriate!

I suppose the most interesting aspect of this discussion is that there does not seem to be a word to use that will not have some kind of negative connotations of religious ascendance with the use of 'Assumption', or of brutal seizure of the reigns of power with 'Taking', 'Seizing' or even 'Prising'!

Even the seemingly non-controversial idea of just being the next in line to the throne because 'that's just the way things are' connoted by the "Rise to Power" title seems to suggest a complacent and corrupt ruling class divorced from the rest of society; or the way that you can become King as a child and then still have to Rise, Take, Seize or Assume power from advisors.

I suppose the thing that all the various titles succeed in suggesting is the way that Louis XIV had to fight to assert his control of his court once he came of age and the way that this had a significant impact on his approach to governance?

[ellipsis7]

THE LAST UTOPIA appears to be quite a substantial extra...

La Dernière utopie : la télévision selon Rossellini

"Cela se passe au tout début des année 60. Roberto Rossellini, le plus célèbre des cinéastes italiens - il est considéré comme à la fois l’inventeur du néo-réalisme et le passeur du cinéma moderne -, décide de se détourner de la fiction et de la mise en scène cinématographique, pour se consacrer à ce qu’il appelle « une mission nouvelle pour le cinéma ». Il s’agit d’unir les forces du cinéma et celles de la télévision pour mener à bien, à travers une série de films et d’émissions, un vaste, un immense chantier de programmes historiques mettant en récits - et surtout en images - toute l’aventure humaine, depuis le temps des cavernes jusqu’à la conquête de l’Espace, en passant par l’invention des arts et techniques (de 7.000 avant J.C. à nos jours : la maîtrise de l’agriculture, l’âge du fer, la Renaissance, l’industrialisation...). Le projet (monumental : plus de 60 heures en prévision, pour moitié réalisées entre 1963 et 1974) se rattache explicitement à l’ambition encyclopédiste du siècle des Lumières. Rossellini vise à fonder rien moins qu’un nouvel humanisme : donner aux hommes de son temps - ceux du moins qui vont au cinéma et/ou regardent la télévision - les moyens de se réapproprier leur histoire, et, à travers elle, le sens de leur vie ; de réapprendre à penser le monde et leur condition ; de retrouver capacité d’imaginer et désir de connaître ; de sortir ainsi - c’est la dimension politique du projet, lisible entre les lignes - de leur aliénation au divertissement et au spectacle dominants, à la consommation, à la publicité.(...) Le cinéaste fait une confiance totale à la capacité humaine de comprendre le monde par le regard et l’écoute : confiance aux puissances mêmes du cinéma. Montrer comment vivaient les hommes d’autrefois, comment ils parlaient, se mouvaient, mangeaient, se vêtaient, etc. L’allure, le costume, les déplacements, les rituels, les ordres et les coutumes, les rencontres avec le monde qui les entoure : tout cela peut apparaître dans l’espace-temps d’un plan-séquence. Filmer les hommes en leur milieu produit un grand nombre d’informations immédiate-ment perceptibles et comprises par le spectateur, quelles que soient sa « culture » ou ses études. Il faut redonner le goût de « voir vraiment », de « voir par soi-même ». (...) Il s’agit pour moi de rendre sensible au spectateur d’aujourd’hui le pari rossellinien d’une connaissance qui passe par la sensibilité aux formes et aux modes d’écriture cinématographiques. C’est là le centre de gravité du projet rossellinien. C’est le point le plus aigu de son utopie : supposer un (télé)spectateur non seulement avide de connaissances, curieux, ouvert à l’autre, aspirant à savoir ce qu’il en est du monde et de la science, mais, surtout, capable d’éprouver des sensations cinématographiques qui valident le déploiement des savoirs. Connaissance sensible. Ce spectateur a existé, existe toujours. Il s’agit encore de parier sur lui.
(Extrait du projet de J.-L. Comolli pour le film, février 2005)
Extraits de films, bien sûr, mais aussi conversation avec Adriano Aprà, rencontres avec des collaborateurs, des complices, des techniciens se répondent et s’articulent à la voix de Rossellini et à son image pour retracer l’incarnation en principes de tournage et de montage longuement expérimentés d’une idée humaniste et généreuse.

Jean-Louis Comolli, 90’, France, prod. Ina/Vivo Films, 2005

90 mins for this, LOUIS XIV runs 100 mins, plus there's Tag Gallagher's visual essay and video interviews - a lot of material to fit on one disc...

[Narshty]

They've now solved the space issue by dropping the documentary. I've sent Mulvaney an email saying I'd rather pay $39.95 for a 2-disc set than lose the programme altogether and if anyone else was keen to see it I'd suggest they do the same.

[ellipsis7]

Done so too... It's a bit silly because THE LAST UTOPIA would put both this and the Eclipse ROSSELLINI'S HISTORY FILMS into context, and would no doubt include interesting archive footage, interviews etc... It definitely should go to 2 discs, regardless of the price hike... I've also just picked up the very interesting Cahiers du Cinema book, Roberto Rossellini/LA TELEVISION COMME UTOPIE, ed. Adriana Apra, which presents a selection of RR's writings on television and his projects through that medium...

A quick reply from Criterion... Apparently there's a problem with getting hold of the master tape of LAST UTOPIA - it being not forthcoming because of an unresolvable rights issue... So it had to be dropped... One of those things, rather than lack of space...

[Adam]

I want to know if the title is somehow related to "The Taking of Pelham 123" :-)

[tag gallagher]

About the title. I argue for this phrasing. The only reason the movie is known as "The Rise of Louis XIV" is that this is how someone subtitled it back in the 1960s. In fact it is misleading, because the drama isn't Louis' escalator ride, it's his violent seizure of dictatorial power at a time when (a) he had none, (b) the monarchy was weak and had spent the previous twelve years in civil war (and a king, Louis' uncle, had been beheaded in England), and so (c) Louis had every reason to be scared to death. It's not as though the power was his and he had merely to assume it. It's more akin to a coup d'état. In the movie, everyone laughs at him.

The title is just as much a mouthful in French (and in Italian). "Prise" comes from the verb "to take." It's no more the normal term in French than it is in English. French has a word for "seize." The title says "take."

[ellipsis7]

About the title. I argue for this phrasing. The only reason the movie is known as "The Rise of Louis XIV" is that this is how someone subtitled it back in the 1960s. In fact it is misleading, because the drama isn't Louis's escalator ride, it's his violent seizure of dictatorial power at a time when (a) he had none, (b) the monarchy was weak and had spent the previous twelve years in civil war (and a king, Louis's uncle, had been beheaded in England), and so (c) Louis had every reason to be scared to death. It's not as though the power was his and he had merely to assume it. It's more akin to a coup d'état. In the movie, everyone laughs at him.

The title is just as much a mouthful in French (and in Italian). "Prise" comes from the verb "to take." It's no more the normal term in French than it is in English. French has a word for "seize." The title says "take."

Sounds pretty definitive to me - I have an old VHS recording of the film from the BBC (they did a big RR season in about 1989, and an Arena doc which has rather dated) - my copy has lots of dropout on the tape etc., so am absolutely delighted with this release, and look forward to your visual essay very much ... BTW really enjoyed and appreciated your book THE ADVENTURES OF RR - a superb piece of work... I wonder if you are you also involved in Criterion's upcoming ROSSELLINI WAR TRILOGY set, and do you have any idea when it is coming?...

[Florinaldo]

The title is just as much a mouthful in French (and in Italian). "Prise" comes from the verb "to take." It's no more the normal term in French than it is in English. French has a word for "seize." The title says "take."

I wouldn't know about the Italian, but in French the use of the verb "prendre" and the related noun "prise" is quite frequent and quite normal when talking about political power being assumed, either by force or by intrigue (as in the case of Louis the XIV who had to resort to manoeuvering to take what was rightly his).

As for the English title, it would not be the first time that a fuzzy initial translation becomes the norm for a title.

[ellipsis7]

LAST UTOPIA is actually now back listed as an extra on the new website - maybe a phantom 'lost and found in translation' error from the old version to the new...

UPDATE: Yep, gone again...

[King Prendergast]

I've seen Soderbergh's Che compared to this, and RR's other historical films, on several occasions now. Can someone explicate what the relevancy of this comparison might be?

[cdnchris]

Taking of Power by Louis XIV DVD review

[cdnchris]

I think it looks fine, but it is a "dull" looking image. I felt as though it may have been contrast boosted but then after looking through the supplements and getting an idea about the lighting (which would somewhat explain faces becoming very white at moments) and the look they were going for I wasn't sure if this was the case. I'm actually interested in what Gary says. Does he have grabs from the MK2? I couldn't find it on his site.

[cdnchris]

That looks pretty much exact, or at least close. Maybe when I have a moment I'll take some grabs similar to the ones you have there and compare on here.

[Jun-Dai]

The original French title is also interesting. Instead of the more familiar and probably expected "prise du pouvoir", Rossellini uses "prise de pouvoir"

The former would indicate someone seizing power, by force perhaps, in an instance where he was not legitimately entitled to it. The latter suggests that power is assumed as intended by the natural order of things or according to the accepted rules. In this case, by the lawful heir to the throne.

I'm not fluent in French, so I can't speak directly to implication, but a quick search on the French Wikipedia:

prise du pouvoir:

• La prise du pouvoir par Hitler (here)
• Dans les faits, il prépare la prise du pouvoir (from October Revolution)
• Prise du pouvoir (section of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali)
• La prise du pouvoir par les communistes (section on Histoire du Laos)
• Prise du pouvoir (section of Vercingétorix)

prise de pouvoir:

• Histoire d'un crime est un roman de Victor Hugo sur la prise de pouvoir de Napoléon III en France.
• La Prise de pouvoir (section of The Dictatorship of Saddam Hussein)
• Prise de pouvoir (section of Jean II of France)
• Les assassinats de Rieseberg désignent le crime commis par les nationaux-socialistes peu après leur prise de pouvoir en 1933 (here)
• Cette période - appelée également période Tokugawa - débute vers 1600, avec la prise de pouvoir de Ieyasu Tokugawa (Époque d'Edo)

(There are many more for both)
Prise du pouvoir seems to be more common, but neither seems to be uncommon and I'm not seeing a clear difference of usage. Are they perhaps pretty much interchangeable?

That said, other than the fact that it is something of a word-for-word translation, it seems like it would be hard to argue that taking of power has anywhere near the familiarity and usage of prise de pouvoir or prise du pouvoir. Siezing of power seems closer in spirit (and frequency of usage), although it adds an implication that the power was not yours to begin with in any way (whereas taking of power could cover a proper transition of power, even if the implication is that something pretty dramatic is going on. E.g., A coalition of the Conservative and Liberal Unionist parties took power in Britain following the general election of 1895.). Rise to power, on the other hand, implies to me that it is part of a larger historical picture, with possibly some connotation of historical inevitability, but certainly with the idea that it was a process over time rather than a momentary event, and with the idea that it was not immediately extinguished, even if it may have been short-lived in a relative sense.

So the taking of power has the benefit of not adding any meaning to the original, despite its relative disuse and the peculiarity of its construction.

[tag gallagher]

Curiously, the original script had "du" and so did at least one poster.