Technical Issues and Questions

[swo17]

My intention was to buy an Oppo Blu-ray player whenever that comes out, thus thrusting me into the multiregion arena. And yes, I really just want this to be able to watch PAL DVDs on my TV. However, earlier in this thread, Rufus suggested that a multiregion player isn't enough--your TV also has to be able to display a PAL signal. Which is what got me looking at multisystem TVs. My question now is, do I really need a multisystem TV, or can I just get an NTSC TV and some kind of box to do the conversion for me? Or do you only need a PAL-capable TV if you want to actually pick up a PAL broadcast signal?

Honestly, my motivation here is that if I'm going to spend this much on a TV, it ought to be able to do anything I might ever want it to do. My DVD collection is entirely Region 1 or 0 at this point, though there are a handful of titles I want that are only available in other regions, or that better versions exist in other regions. Probably 95% or more of the time though, I would just be watching stuff that's in NTSC. Which is why I don't want to sacrifice some of the nicer specs (higher contrast, 24p, etc.) just to have an option I will only occasionally use.

[subliminac]

Which is why I don't want to sacrifice some of the nicer specs (higher contrast, 24p, etc.) just to have an option I will only occasionally use.

I don't believe the 550 model you mentioned offers 24p compatibility since it is a 60hz model. For 24p you would have to go with the 650 which is 120hz. As far as PAL capability, if you were to purchase an Oppo player it shouldn't be an issue since the player converts the signal for you.

[David M.]

Question: Is there a difference between these two specs?

3:3 Pulldown: Pull down is a technique by which specific frequency signals, usually 60i fields, are brought down to 24 progressive frames. This rate of motion is highly sought after since almost all cinema is shot at 24 frames per second. Most displays perform a 3:2 pull down which results in uneven field reproduction. While this method helps create the desired effect, motion often appears to jitter unevenly. Pioneer has developed a 3:3 pull down technique by increasing the plasmas frequency rate from 60Hz to 72Hz. The increase makes it much easier for the monitor to display images at films native speed of 24 fps. The resultant experience is so close to film, you'll feel like you're in the theater!

24p: Movies are shot at 24 frames per second. Unfortunately, TVs operating at 60Hz can only refresh 20 times per second, which means they must drop every fifth frame. With its 2008 Viera PZ85, PZ800, and PZ850 models, Panasonic introduces 24p native resolution, which means 24 frame per second movie content is reproduced frame for frame exactly, making for true-to-source smoothness of motion.

There's an inaccuracy in Panasonic's description, but both of them are basically saying that they reproduce 24p content without judder.

Some TVs accept 24p input... and then convert it BACK to 60hz for internal processing!

OK, I've been looking for a while for an upper-end HDTV that has all the fancy specs I want AND is able to play both NTSC and PAL. So far, everything I've found that has multisystem capabilities has been lacking in the fancy specs department, and/or comes from some retailer I've never heard of at a hefty price. But then today I found this box, which apparently has the effect of turning any TV into a multisystem TV. Does anyone have any experience with this? If this actually does what it says, it could make my life a whole lot easier. I've been wanting to go multi-region for a while now.

Don't bother with standards converters. They damage the picture quality, even in professional broadcast applications. I shudder to think what a box with a 3-figure price tag does, but haven't checked one out. If you want to view the occasional PAL DVD, I guess it would do.

BTW, if you absolutely can't find a TV that accepts 50hz natively, check out Oppo DIgital's DVD players. They do a decent job of rate-converting the signal without frame or field blending. Not ideal, but much better than a device like that one.

[fiddlesticks]

I'm not sure if the specs of the Oppo BD player have been announced, but to the extent that they play DVDs you will be just fine. You may, however, need to have a second multi-region DVD player to handle anything that the Oppo BD will not (e.g., the Oppo BD may be limited to DVD regions 1 and 2, in which case you'd need a second machine for regions 3+.) But any region-free DVD player will convert PAL>NTSC, so you will be able to watch PAL discs on your new TV.

As David suggests, a TV that will play native PAL will be better than watching a PAL disc which has been converted to NTSC by your player. How much better? That's a tough question. I have a small 760p Spectrum set that can play native PAL, and I have it hooked up to an Oppo 970 outputting native PAL, and my R2 PALs look great on it. So when I went shopping for a bigger set for my living room, I wanted to find one which could play native PAL. However, I ended up buying a Samsung LN40A550, which does not play PAL. I hooked up an Oppo 980, and while the PAL discs are not 100% perfect, they're mighty close--in fact, I've only noticed any conversion hiccups on one disc (High Plains Drifter), and then only occasionally. I certainly wouldn't have traded contrast, or reliability, or even color performance for my color-blind eyes just to get native PAL. And I don't even have the Oppo 983, which is by all accounts even better at PAL>NTSC conversion than the 980.

So my advice would be to not worry about it; just get the best TV you can afford, bearing in mind that you may have to reserve a $200 or less for a DVD player to augment your Oppo BD.

[Oedipax]

I'm looking at buying the 40" model in the same series this week as there is a deal where you can add a Samsung BD player and three movies for $99.

Antoine, do you have more details (or a link) about this deal? Is it only offered in Canada? I ended up buying the LN40A650 from Amazon, and I got a free subscription to Wired, but that's it. I'd be mighty tempted to add a Blu-Ray player for that price.

It's amazing how much misinformation there is out there on the web about the 60hz/120hz thing. When I was trying to figure out whether 120hz would be a problem for me, I found many forum threads on other boards equating 120hz with motion-smoothing technologies, as if it were a package deal. Disabling motion-smoothing was referred to as "going back to 60hz" - not the case at all! There were even some review sites repeating this stuff, saying things like they preferred other displays because of the weird 120hz motion-smoothing.

As for the size of the LCD I ordered, it's more or less the largest display that will fit in the space (my previous set is an easily 10+ year-old 27" CRT!). I was curious to see how much screen space I would gain on 1.33:1 movies, and discovered this handy site that'll calculate it for you (along with 16x9, 1.85 and 2.35).

Finally, has anyone dealt with CEVA before on shipping? Frankly, I would've preferred UPS or something, but Amazon didn't offer any options on shipping. I ordered the display on Sunday and it shipped Monday but won't be here until next Monday, apparently.

[Antoine Doinel]

I made a mistake, it's actually the Series 5 that has the deal, not the Series 6. The $99 BluRay player is only if you buy the TV with it. It's through Future Shop (I know, I know) in Canada and I don't think they ship to the States. Deal ends Thursday and is web only. That said, Best Buy now owns Future Shop you may want to hit the Best Buy site to see if they have anything similar going on.

[swo17]

However, I ended up buying a Samsung LN40A550, which does not play PAL. I hooked up an Oppo 980, and while the PAL discs are not 100% perfect, they're mighty close

I was under the impression that the TV needed to be able to handle native PAL in order to display the signal from a PAL disc at all, not just with better quality. If you've actually gotten this to work with an Oppo then that's a big load off my mind. Now I've just got to convince the wife that we NEED a 50" Pioneer Kuro, a fact I have only realized myself today.

Thanks fiddlesticks and David for all your helpful advice.

I don't believe the 550 model you mentioned offers 24p compatibility since it is a 60hz model. For 24p you would have to go with the 650 which is 120hz. As far as PAL capability, if you were to purchase an Oppo player it shouldn't be an issue since the player converts the signal for you.

I think you confused my question with one of Antoine's. I never mentioned a 550 model.

[subliminac]

My mistake.

[fiddlesticks]

I was under the impression that the TV needed to be able to handle native PAL in order to display the signal from a PAL disc at all, not just with better quality. If you've actually gotten this to work with an Oppo then that's a big load off my mind.

Just for the sake of clarity, and in case anyone else has similar concerns, this is not limited to Oppo. Any DVD player that does onboard PAL>NTSC conversion (and that includes many if not most DVD players available in the US, and certainly every one I've looked at in the past 3 years) will work. Once the content on the disc has been converted and output as an NTSC signal, the fact that it was originally encoded in PAL format ceases to be relevant; the TV is receiving NTSC-format input, and it is unaware that it was ever PAL to begin with.

As for the persuasion, maybe you should try to convince her that you NEED a 60" Pioneer Kuro, and then allow her to convince you that a 50" will suffice? I don't have a wife, but this always works with my alternate personality.

[David M.]

However, I ended up buying a Samsung LN40A550, which does not play PAL. I hooked up an Oppo 980, and while the PAL discs are not 100% perfect, they're mighty close--in fact, I've only noticed any conversion hiccups on one disc

Ah yes, I helped fine-tune the firmware in the Oppo 980 It's one of the few affordable 1-chip DVD players that can not only convert PAL to NTSC well (although I didn't have a hand in this part), but can also detect and compensate for a 2-2 Film Cadence on 50hz discs (that's a whole other can of worms and one which I wouldn't let go until they'd got it right!)

[swo17]

As for the persuasion, maybe you should try to convince her that you NEED a 60" Pioneer Kuro, and then allow her to convince you that a 50" will suffice? I don't have a wife, but this always works with my alternate personality.

Ha, well the problem is I already told her a few months ago all we needed is a 42". Fortunately though, she has probably forgotten, and she is also one of those people who would rather stay entirely clueless regarding all things technological, so I have that to my advantage.

This could really be a whole other topic though--Wife Issues and Questions, perhaps. Mods?

[nsps]

You could try reverse it. Sit her down and say, "Look, honey, I know you really wanted that 60" Kuro, but in this economy, and with the baby and all, I think we should knock it down to 50"."

That'd work, eh? Eh?

[Antoine Doinel]

Or you could take the opposite route, which is "Honey, because of the economy, it is our patriotic duty to spend as much money as we can afford on a 60" TV. It's the American thing to do."

[swo17]

Wow. I never expected to get so much advice on this. I'll let you all know how it goes. I probably won't actually buy one though until the Oppo Blu-ray player comes out, or if I see a totally sweet deal before then.

[MichaelB]

Ha, well the problem is I already told her a few months ago all we needed is a 42". Fortunately though, she has probably forgotten, and she is also one of those people who would rather stay entirely clueless regarding all things technological, so I have that to my advantage.

My wife was surprisingly amenable to the idea of upgrading from a 28" CRT to a 42" plasma when I broached the subject last June.

It helped that she'd recently seen, and been impressed by, the flatness of a friend's 37" LCD set (her main beef with our old telly was that it took up so much space relative to the screen size), so I was pushing at a door that was already partially ajar - and it helped even more that the price of the model I had in mind dropped by £100 while we were debating getting it.

In fact, she even wondered whether 42" was too small at one point (they always look smaller in the showroom), though it turned out to be absolutely perfect for the alcove in which we installed it - which was why I picked that size in the first place.

[Antoine Doinel]

Question: I've always been in the "a cable is a cable" camp. Is there any compelling reason why I would spend more money on, say, a Monster cable versus any other brand?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Question: I've always been in the "a cable is a cable" camp. Is there any compelling reason why I would spend more money on, say, a Monster cable versus any other brand?

No, not unless you can perceive a difference that you feel is justified by the expense. Generally the cables that come bundled with equipment are satisfactory for most people, as most people don't notice any degradation. If you do notice degradation and want optimal quality for your money, then the thicker and slightly more expensive cables you can get from electronics stores are sufficient, mainly because they have better shielding.

For video you get significantly more improvement by the type of cable you use (component or HDMI instead of composite or s-video) than by the cable itself. For audio there are a lot of claims about how people can hear differences between cables, but frankly my AUD$200 custom-made cables don't sound significantly different to the $40 cables I was using, and the equipment I use them with is high-end compared to what most people have. There's no way I would buy $1,000 per metre cable as either there is no difference or my ears aren't good enough to hear it.

The only time you should spend a little bit more is where you have a long run of cable, say 10 metres or more, especially with HDMI. Even then you should be able to get a cable of satisfactory quality at much less cost than a Monster cable.

[Antoine Doinel]

Cool, thanks for the feedback Rufus -- that's pretty much what I figured. I spoke to a colleague here at work, who has some great technical knowledge, and he said that other than shielding which will be better on more expensive cables (I'm looking at HDMI), I shouldn't notice any difference. A cheaper cable may degrade faster but in that case, I would just buy another average brand and it will still be less than paying for something branded or custom.

[swo17]

Cool, thanks for the feedback Rufus -- that's pretty much what I figured. I spoke to a colleague here at work, who has some great technical knowledge, and he said that other than shielding which will be better on more expensive cables (I'm looking at HDMI), I shouldn't notice any difference. A cheaper cable may degrade faster but in that case, I would just buy another average brand and it will still be less than paying for something branded or custom.

I have some experience with cables (but audio, not video). I can tell you though that with Monster you will likely get a good cable, but you are partly paying for the name.

[Morbii]

I'm pretty certain that if you're talking about just HDMI vs HDMI cables, the cheapest thing will look as good as the most expensive. Analog signals can have noise, digital signals cannot - it either gets there or it doesn't.

[Der Müde Tod]

Analog signals can have noise, digital signals cannot - it either gets there or it doesn't.

All signals have noise. Think about scratches on CDs, typos in what you write. The question is whether
the built-in error correction can keep the noise on an imperceptible level.

I don't know how critical this is with HDMI or other digital cables, but I can imagine that long cables say from a ceiling mounted projector to the DVD player can be problematic.

[Morbii]

It either works or it doesn't (just like the CD - it either skips or it doesn't) - The CD being scratched isn't going to make the CD sound worse if it's not getting in the way of the laser, and even then it's just missing data. One digital cable won't give better results than another unless the other is broken.

[Donald Brown]

Monoprice.com is the place for cables of any kind. Premium quality, bargain prices.

[Antoine Doinel]

Ok, so I got my new LCD TV today and BluRay player that supposedly upconverts to 1080p however I'm noticing some wildly divergent SD-DVD results on the player.

Royal Tenenbaums (Criterion) - image looks slightly soft, but there is good detail, texture
Ocean's Thirteen - grainy as hell, looks awful (this disc actually never looked that great on my standard DVD player either)
Birth - looks very good
Double Indemnity - looks great

So far, when playing BR everything looks amazing. Oh yeah, screen size settings are correct so this isn't an issue of stretched images etc.

My question: should I suspect the BR player or does the upconvert really depend on the quality of the source? Or is this a case of finally having a decent enough TV to really notice how varying DVD transfers can be?

[Poncho Punch]

Ok, so I got my new LCD TV today and BluRay player that supposedly upconverts to 1080p however I'm noticing some wildly divergent SD-DVD results on the player.

Royal Tenenbaums (Criterion) - image looks slightly soft, but there is good detail, texture

I'm not sure what you mean by "soft" since I would have thought that meant a not so detailed picture. If it's a problem of some of it being sharp and some not, it might be because there's so much red in the film, which, if I'm not mistaken, is difficult to faithfully reproduce in digital formats. Or are you seeing a detailed image of a soft transfer?