The Leopard

[Ben Cheshire]

Good point. I know Donald Sutherland talks about doing Casanova with Fellini, and Fellini just telling him to say uno e duo e uno etc... So his mouth was looking Italian. He wouldn't even know what the line was going to be... Which worries me.

[MichaelB]

It varies per director, of course, and Fellini was a law unto himself, but my understanding is that in the commercial Italian film industry the general rule was that if an actor could speak English at all, that's what they should speak on the set. Italians watch everything dubbed, including homegrown stuff, so they're far less bothered by poor lip-sync than we are.

I was recently reminded of this when I watched the new DVD of Sergio Corbucci's The Great Silence and had a choice of language options - and although one would think that Italian was more "authentic" because of the nationality of the film and its director, both tracks are obviously dubbed, and English is actually a better match for the lip movements of the leading characters (Jean-Louis Trintignant doesn't speak at all, while Klaus Kinski and Vonetta McGee are clearly speaking English).

Anyway, with The Leopard, since it was an international co-production with a major Hollywood studio from the outset, I'd be very surprised if Burt Lancaster was speaking anything other than English on the set - I don't know if he spoke any other languages at all, and there's no particular reason for him to have done given that there was always going to be an English version. As for Delon, my guess would be French - based on Rocco and his Brothers, where he's definitely speaking French, and why it's quite an interesting exercise to watch the Masters of Cinema DVD switching between Italian for the bulk of the film and French for Delon's scenes with Annie Girardot.

As for David Hare's specific question, neither BFI edition contains the shorter English version - I don't know if it was even considered. And of course an English dub track over the long version wasn't a viable option because I believe the recording was only made after substantial cuts, so one would need to come up with up to an hour or so of additional audio - either by switching somewhat jarringly to Italian (as on Anchor Bay's Deep Red) or creating a new English dub to fill in the gaps, presumably with the aid of a Burt Lancaster impersonator. Something similar was attempted with Spartacus (with Anthony Hopkins standing in for Laurence Olivier) and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (to cover for Lee Van Cleef's unavailability) - but those were relatively short snippets, whereas with this you'd need to cover pretty important material. So I'm not surprised no-one's attempted it!

[Sloper]

I'm sure I remember hearing on one of the commentaries that they all spoke in their own languages on set, and indeed the dialogue is so important in this film, and the acting (especially Lancaster's) so subtly modulated, that I can hardly imagine it would have been otherwise. Also, I'm pretty sure the dialogue synchs better with Burt's lips on the English version, though his magnificent moustache makes it hard to tell.

As David says, Leslie French was one of the other English-speaking actors, and one of the great pleasures of the US version is to watch the scene between him and Lancaster where they sit by the fire discussing the fate of Sicily. It's the best scene in the film I think, and perhaps that's because you sense more of a rapport between the actors. Burt's real voice is also softer, more vulnerable and quite moving in this scene, while the Italian voice has a grander, more stoic sound. I'm still not sure which version of the scene I prefer, though I have to say that, as a rule, I do think the Italian actor's voice suits the part better than Lancaster's (I say this as a huge fan of Burt's voice).

Now if someone made a version where certain of the less appropriate music cues could be turned off - like the one where Chevalley arrives, and Cavriaghi and Concetta look out over the rooftops, and nothing's really happening but some idiot at Fox cranks up a bit of swelling, swirling Nino Rota just to give it that good old Max Steiner-boost, just in case the punters get bored - I would double-dip in a heartbeat!

[Ben Cheshire]

Another example for you is Lawrence of Arabia. You can hear in certain scenes Peter O'Toole suddenly goes from sounding 30 years old to 80 years old. Its quite jarring, though not as jarring as it sounds out of context. I like to avoid this kind of thing where possible; but I've only ever seen Lawrence like this (coming as i have fairly late to its game), so I guess I'll probably always prefer having that extra footage in.

I've seen it twice now and I always assumed Lancaster was speaking Italian; I thought his lip movements synced with that. In fact, the story I've heard (and it might be wrong) is that he tried to do the Italian dub himself, but that they weren't pleased with his accent, and so they didn't use it.

Re: Delon, he is French, so I guess he would sound pretty at home in that tongue.

Re: that looking over the rooftops scene, that sounds just like it is in the long cut...I remember thinking it sounded like it was going to be the end of the movie... Then it wasn't.

[ellipsis7]

The new BFI Blu booklet has a piece by Visconti from The Sunday Times of 27th October 1963, criticising the version of THE LEOPARD he saw in America...

....But the case of a modern artist in the cinema is one of peculiar helplessness, and here I should like to adduce my own example as a case in point. Here I feel the need of a Robespierre, for I feel as helpless as if I had been bound, gagged, blindfolded and thrown in the River Thames.

For my new film, THE LEOPARD, an American version was prepared without my supervision. It was dubbed with ill-chosen, unsuitable voices. I have nothing against cuts when there is a genuine possibility that some part of the film's theme might prove incomprehensible to another nation, but they must be done with taste and feeling. When I saw THE LEOPARD in New York I had difficulty following the plot.

Moreover, the film which is in colour, had been processed as if it were a bright piece of Hollywoodiana. The long ball scene which ends it I shot with the greatest care to lend an ancient texture and the glow of candlelight. The American result is almost like a white film. It is now a work for which I acknowledge no paternity at all.

It is the business of the artists to establish contact with the whole world - that must be his aim. And for that it is essential to see what the artist intended. With THE LEOPARD the argument against this was that the Americans would never understand the film, that they were virtually a public of children. Such an insulting attitude should never be allowed to prevail. And now there is the risk of the same version being shown in England.

No wonder I think longingly of Robespierre. It is time for some heads to roll.

Pretty emphatic and damning of the US version, and supportive of the BFI releasing only the original long Italian version, on DVD & Blu...

[Sloper]

Indeed, even though the Criterion edition of the US version is 'newly restored', the picture quality is noticeably less sharp and less 'glowing' than the longer version. Visconti's comment about the 'whiteness' sums it up pretty well, especially in the scenes set in opulent, golden-walled dining rooms or ballrooms, which seem very drab de-saturated. The warm, vibrant glow of these settings is really important, especially towards the end when the prince starts to fade away into that chilling, deathly pallor, which really ought to stand out against the energy and youth all around him.

I have to say the differences were less apparent to me on my crappy TV than they are in screen captures, and altogether less apparent than on my off-air recording of the US version. It certainly makes for an interesting comparison, anyway.

[MichaelB]

A quick warning for anyone who has a modified multiregion Oppo Blu-ray player - apparently they've been having problems with this disc pixilating at various points.

Hopefully it's a temporary issue that can be resolved with a firmware update (as happened with The Other Side of the Underneath refusing to play on American PS3s a few months back) - but I'll post another update when I hear more.

Given that it seems to play perfectly on other systems, the likelihood is that this is either a software glitch peculiar to the Oppo, or a side-effect of the multi-region mod. But I'd be very grateful to hear from anyone with more info.

UPDATE: Someone on Blu-ray.com has taken the very welcome initiative of emailing the disc to Oppo themselves, and they've said they'll have a look at it and try to work out what the problem is.

[jsteffe]

Burt's real voice is also softer, more vulnerable and quite moving in this scene, while the Italian voice has a grander, more stoic sound. I'm still not sure which version of the scene I prefer, though I have to say that, as a rule, I do think the Italian actor's voice suits the part better than Lancaster's (I say this as a huge fan of Burt's voice).

I think here you have a rare case where an actor's performance is actually improved by dubbing. Burt Lancaster has both a superb voice and a powerful physical presence. But when I watch the English-dubbed version, I still feel as if it's Burt Lancaster playing the Prince of Salina. Visconti chose the Italian voice actor with great care; he plays the prince with just the right balance of nobility and earthiness/crudity. The combination of Lancaster's expressive physicality and the Italian voice creates a very precise, and to my mind convincing embodiment of the prince.

[MichaelB]

Beaver - reservations about the three-month HMV exclusive deal aside (which will no longer be an issue come February), this is pretty much a total rave.

[Ben Cheshire]

edit: I have retracted my previous comments, via disclaimers, without deleting them entirely. I've only just figured out that my Plamsa is retarded and doesn't display 24fps unless "Cinema Smooth" is enabled. There are no problems with movement on this BD from my perspective, although modified Oppo owners should google further, because there does seem to be reports of issues there.

Ben, I cant remember quite what your comments were about image flaws or whatever, but I wondered if you were referring to - for want of a better word - "image shimmering" notably in the second shot after the director's credit at the top, and again in the second shot after chapter 9. This is of course hot air, and the air rising and swirling in front of the camera lens There's also a LH spot on the lens of just one camera in a number of shots - it's present during the credits as the shots approach the villa, and it's visibile again in set up and return (in other words alternate to the reverse angle) shots that start chapter nine. it appears to be either a defect or a bit of gunk on the lens, like the famous fly which has been commented on elsewhere. In any case these are all present on the original film. They're not video artefacts. Beau travail, bro!

Wow, that would be amazing, I bet you're right! I bet it was boiling hot when they were filming. I'm not sure what it is I'm seeing, because it looks perfect like most of the time. Because everything's so highly resolved, I get totally paranoid about whether what I'm watching is a part of the film or a video artifact.

[MichaelB]

If I remember rightly, Lawrence of Arabia (released the same year) has unresolvable issues over visible streaks on the image caused by the film actually overheating in the camera - or a similar by-product of extreme shooting conditions.

All you can really do in these instances is publicise the fact that this is on the original negative and there's nothing you can do aside from an extremely expensive and arguably misguided CGI job that would rightly have purists up in arms.

[Ben Cheshire]

Ok, I've got good news and bad news. Good news: I've figured out what was causing juddering movement, and its not the Leopard BD, which is immaculate in a grained film sense of the word. Bad news: I've jumped to conclusions here and accused BFI of DNR, when it was actually caused by my Plasma, which does not display 24fps content at 24fps unless a "Cinema Smooth" setting is enabled. I don't know how or why this should be the case, but it is, becuase I have enabled the setting and now Gone with the Wind BD plays beautiful and smooth (the one I just happened to be watching when i decided to do some research into my image problem). So I um, I hang my head in shame, and I hope that if anyone was put off this disc because of my comments, they read my full retraction, which I've posted as an edit to every single one of the offending posts in the BFI thread, and just now only once here in this thread.

[MichaelB]

Don't worry about it - mistakes are inevitable in these situations. God knows I've made plenty myself, and (ahem) not that long ago either!

So would I still be right in thinking that the only player that's causing problems with The Leopard is the multi-region Oppo?

[Ben Cheshire]

Don't worry about it - mistakes are inevitable in these situations. God knows I've made plenty myself, and (ahem) not that long ago either!

So would I still be right in thinking that the only player that's causing problems with The Leopard is the multi-region Oppo?

Cheers, and I think you're right in your post earlier that the reported problems was pixellation not movement. Unfortunately it seems that Gary has conflated two posts from some thread here, one of mine reporting movement problems (now, if you've joined us late, revealed to be because I didn't have "Cinema Smooth" set to "on" on my plasma, an issue which affected all of my discs) and the others reporting pixellation when playing on a modified Oppo.

[Ben Cheshire]

Beaver - reservations about the three-month HMV exclusive deal aside (which will no longer be an issue come February), this is pretty much a total rave.

Its interesting how tentative Gary sounds in places, despite how outstanding the disc really is, probably because he's understandably very "what the hell" about hearing the disc had any issues (which it doesn't.)

I think it might be because he got a bit thrown recently when he gave It's A Wonderful Life BD a positive review and then Robert A Harris at Home Theatre Forum gave it about his worst rating, citing it basically as a terrible example of quality control and DNR wreacking havoc on grain and virtually obligerating detail. It was about the worst thing I've ever read about any kind of media presentation. I think its safe to say that Gary, who we know visits here from time to time, was shocked by the difference of opinion, because he made a rare visit to Robert's review on HTF and tried to defend his position, which, based on his screencaps, was a vey hard fish to swallow. So perhaps it was at the sniff of any issue like the pixellation, and the false accusation of DNR, that made Gary include in his review disclaimers allowing him to have been wrong until he had another look at it, like you know "I'd like to live with it more" (paraphrsing) and the like.

[4LOM]

The BFI used the Giuseppe Rotunno approved master from 2004 that was used for the Criterion DVD, too.

The movie is segmented into 4 files on the BFI Blu-ray:

00002.M2TS | Time In: 0:00:00.000 | Length: 0:57:25.066
00003.M2TS | Time In: 0:57:25.066 | Length: 0:55:26.114
00012.M2TS | Time In: 1:52:51.181 | Length: 0:01:37.013
00011.M2TS | Time In: 1:54:28.194 | Length: 1:11:00.464

Something went wrong with file 00011.M2TS, because for the last 71 minutes of the film, contrast and color on the Blu-ray aren't correct anymore.

Screenshots:

#1: BFI Blu-ray
#2: Criterion DVD

I wrote an e-mail to the BFI about this.

[MichaelB]

I have to say I prefer the BFI colours - the reds and skintones are noticeably richer. What's your objection to them?

[4LOM]

My objections are that Rotunno approved the master with the color correction but the colors are changed. Contrast is even worse, because most of the details in dark areas aren't visible anymore.
I don't know if it was clear: Color and contrast values are the same on the Criterion DVD and BFI BD for the first 114 minutes. When the 00011.M2TS file starts playing at minute 114, the differences appear and last till the end of the movie.

[Ben Cheshire]

My objections are that Rotunno approved the master with the color correction but the colors are changed. Contrast is even worse, because most of the details in dark areas aren't visible anymore.
I don't know if it was clear: Color and contrast values are the same on the Criterion DVD and BFI BD for the first 114 minutes. When the 00011.M2TS file starts playing at minute 114, the differences appear and last till the end of the movie.

Its an intersting theory, and I'm sure it'll send us all back to our discs to see what we find this time! For those who don't have the disc, it might be more helpful if you posted a cap comparison of how the BFI looks before that fourth file starts, or do we just assume it looks more like hte Criterion clip, but in HD?

[4LOM]

For those who don't have the disc, it might be more helpful if you posted a cap comparison of how the BFI looks before that fourth file starts, or do we just assume it looks more like hte Criterion clip, but in HD?

Okay, a good idea.

Here are two more screenshots similar to the ones I posted above. They are made with the same codecs and settings. The one from the BFI BD is at 94:08 minutes (it's on the 00003.M2TS file), the one from the Criterion DVD at 94:46 minutes. There's a difference in the length of the movie on both discs because of the Criterion, 20th Century Fox and Titanus logos at the beginning of the Criterion DVD.

#3: BFI Blu-ray
#4: Criterion DVD

I checked the BFI BD with three different software players, two different codecs and on my standalone player. The heavy blacks from screenshot #1 (see my posting above) are always visible.

[Ben Cheshire]

Where's Sonia's reply? Did I miss that?

[4LOM]

Yesterday I finished my own screenshot comparison of the BFI Blu-ray, the Criterion DVD and the German DVD set from Koch Media with all screenshots in 1920x1080.

A new email is out to Mrs. Mullett from the BFI. I will report if I get an answer.

[MichaelB]

A new email is out to Mrs. Mullett from the BFI. I will report if I get an answer.

Can I assure everyone in this thread that all the relevant people are well aware of the issues being discussed, and are following this thread post by post?

So there's really no point in bombarding the BFI with further emails about the same issue - it just slows things down.

[Ben Cheshire]

A new email is out to Mrs. Mullett from the BFI. I will report if I get an answer.

Can I assure everyone in this thread that all the relevant people are well aware of the issues being discussed, and are following this thread post by post? So there's really no point in bombarding the BFI with further emails about the same issue - it just slows things down.

No problem, good to know.

[4LOM]

Can I assure everyone in this thread that all the relevant people are well aware of the issues being discussed, and are following this thread post by post?

So there's really no point in bombarding the BFI with further emails about the same issue - it just slows things down.

It's no bombarding the BFI when I informed them about this issue in the first place and get a reply, that everything is okay with the disc. I mailed Mrs. Mullet the link to my own screenshot comparison that shoes clearly that something IS wrong. But it's good to know that the BFI is now aware of this, because of other confirmations.