Pre 1920s List Discussion/Suggestions (List Project Vol. 3)

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lubitsch
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:20 pm

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#76 Post by lubitsch »

Tommaso wrote: I'm not sure about the 'strangeness', however. I mentioned the 'cinema of attractions'-theory not least because Elsaesser argues somewhere that this 'spectacular' form of cinema, which indeed originates in the lantern slides and fairground attraction has not only survived as an undercurrent in later years, but has gotten somewhat back to the surface in recent years. If you think of CGI and now the craze for 3-D (which I abhor), you might indeed argue that 'strangeness', visual irritation and/or sumptuousness form a major part of contemporary mainstream cinema again. In this respect, it would be difficult to say that Porter's approach is completely outdated in the long run, though I agree that Williamson's has dominated cinema in the years to come immediately afterwards. So I wouldn't call Williamson's film 'better' unless you believe in a linear progress of evolution of film language and take that as a criterion for quality, as you seem to do.
I'm not sure about the whole CGI and 3-D affair as aiming at the same level. It surely will be an interesting factor, at the moment it's mostly limited to special effects, it's something new, but it's not intended to look strange for the viewer.
The old films however carried over remnants of older artforms which caused jarring effects and were dropped step by step. There's the repetition of showing things which was phased out early. Then we have the mixing of real exterior shots colliding with clearly faked theater indoor/outdoor theater machinery which survived a bit longer, but also died out in the 10's. There are close ups taken against a black background which also was abandoned though Griffith still does it in the 20s. You have white actors playing in blackface blacks which gets abandoned in the silent era and you have them playing asians up to Breakfast at Tiffany's.
So I'd argue that the cinema purified itself by removing all theatrical methods (which also includes the frontal staging of the early cinema) which were jarringly unrealistic for a fundamentally realistic medium. Therefore I think there is a linear development towards a classical narrative cinema in this regard before it came under fire from modernist tendencies.
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Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#77 Post by Tommaso »

I completely agree with your description of the development of early cinema abandoning remnants of other art forms et al. and a development towards narrative forms that we now regard as classical. However you also write:
lubitsch wrote: So I'd argue that the cinema purified itself by removing all theatrical methods (which also includes the frontal staging of the early cinema) which were jarringly unrealistic for a fundamentally realistic medium.
I know that this is your point-of-view, but it is by no means the only one with which you could regard cinema (that's why I mentioned, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, the old Lumière vs Mélies-debate, or rather the later debate on the merits of both producers by critics). You yourself mention the modernist reaction against classical narrative forms, and that reaction also includes the re-establishment or re-integration of other art forms into the filmic language. Think of the extreme theatricality of some Greenaway films, for instance. Perhaps that's why for a long time I preferred both modernist cinema and early cinema to classical Hollywood fare of the 30s to 50s, but that's not a point here, and of course I see the difference between Porter and postmodernist cinema. Talking of 'purification' seems at least one-sided to me, if not oddly religious; and you could also argue that cinema lost quite a bit of its potential and possibilities by this development.

Where I also don't quite agree is when it comes to declaring that cinema is fundamentally a realistic medium, though it can be such a medium if one chooses to. But its origins showed a cinema that was not necessarily realistic, but rather enveloped a wide variety of different approaches. I also can't see how the abandoning of full-frontal perspective is a step towards realism; on the contrary I'd say that a typical shot-reverse shot edit is far removed from what I perceive as an outside observer of any normal conversation. Realism, however you define it, in more than one way depends on what we are 'trained' to accept as 'real'. It has been argued that the most 'realistic' way to the treat the medium is to work on itself, like Man Ray did with his nails and other objects, or like John Cage did when he made a film which only consists of what the medium is, i.e. the projection of light. But the results certainly are among the most abstract of films that you could think of.

Perhaps there is not 'cinema', but different co-existing 'cinemas' at the same time, then, all of which have their worth and peculiarities. Ranking one over the other doesn't make much sense to me, and if you want to trace developments, it might be better to trace them within their own realm, so to say. It makes sense to trace the development from Williamson to Griffith to classical narrative cinema, but also to trace a different line from the fairground spectacles to surrealism to the extravaganzas of Minelli and Powell. Very simplistically put, I admit.
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RobertB
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:00 am
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#78 Post by RobertB »

lubitsch wrote: It's however rather dispiriting to see the small effort by the people at Svenska to deal with this heritage
When the Swedish film institute changed from releasing films on VHS to DVD the commercial companies in Sweden complained, and since 2006 the film institute get so little money for the work with old film they can't release anything. I think it's worse than dispiriting. :x Hopefully there will be a change of government later this year, and things might change. Here is a link to the silent films they have restored (some are only fragments). Only 6 have been released on DVD in Sweden I believe, and a few on VHS. Otherwise they can only be seen at screenings at the Cinematek. http://www.sfi.se/sv/svensk-film/Om-fil ... tumfilmer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Sloper
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:06 am

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#79 Post by Sloper »

Tommaso wrote:While I agree that we cannot really determine the exact meaning of the opening shot, it nicely gives the whole story some sort of introduction or 'frame', which basically works to build up suspense, a suspense that is prolonged by those extended moments of the firemen waking up and preparing to do their job. We want to see the burning house, but it takes us a while to get there and suspense is created. The importance of the event is underlined, too, by the fact that there are nine carts, not just two or three. So all this works together to create audience excitement in a way that I find quite modern or at least 'hollywoodesque'. I also find the fact that Porter tells the ending twice - or at least the way he tells it, with continuity errors et al - not quite convincing from a modern point of view, but this might serve as a reminder that cinema at the time was very much still seen as 'spectacle' in the sense of what Gunning calls the 'cinema of attractions', and Porter gives the audience precisely what it wants: the most spectacular moments are shown twice. The camera trickery in the dream scene at the beginning belongs here, too.

By contrast, I can't help finding the Williamson film rather plain or at least 'matter-of-fact', even though there are no 'mistakes' in spatial arrangement and continuity. But the fact that it obeys the 180° rule not necessarily makes it more modern, and I have doubts that that rule had been formulated at the time, anyway (correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps this indeed all comes down to whether you prefer your cinema to be 'realistic' or 'cinematic', for want of a better word. Domino's point about film musicals is the best example for this.
Having seen Williamson’s Fire! again, in some ways I do prefer it to the Porter film: the opening shot, with the burning house and the policeman rushing into the frame, shows a more artful control of mise-en-scène than you see in Life of an American Fireman. So does the brilliant scene where the man wakes up in the burning room, and the curtain burns away from the window to reveal the fireman about to break in (much more effective, pictorially speaking, than the equivalent moment in Porter’s film where the fireman breaks the door down); and so does the ending, where the man is led away from the building, towards the camera. Williamson’s choice of building pays off too: the fire hoses soaking and darkening the white walls is a nice effect. Plus there’s a decent stunt when the man jumps from the window. In purely technical terms, it’s a better, more thrilling, piece of film-making.

But I think it’s deeply unfair to say that American Fireman ‘plagiarises’ Williamson. Perhaps Porter did get the idea of cutting between the interior and exterior of the building from Fire!, but after all there’s nothing wrong with that (as the word 'plagiarise' would seem to suggest) – and it isn’t the main reason why his film is effective. In most important respects, we’re dealing with two very different films here, and the character of these differences is summed up in their titles. Fire! is a thrilling and effective, but rather impersonal, demonstration of film technique; Life of An American Fireman is a great, sentimental, populist show.

The opening shot is masterful, and watching it again on a DVD (rather than on, ahem, the internet) I don’t think it’s at all confusing. The fireman dreams of his wife putting their child to bed, she reaches to turn off the bedside lamp, and at that moment the dream fades away into the dark wall – what a brilliant idea. The fake desk-lamp painted on the wall next to the sleeping fireman contributes to the scene as well. He sleeps while they’re awake, and dreams of them; while they sleep, he wakes, and is called to save another mother and her child, from a bedroom reminiscent of the one he has just been dreaming about. Even if this were the only distinguishing characteristic of Porter’s film, it would go some way to explaining why it is better remembered than Williamson’s: because it engages our sympathy for the fireman, and pays tribute to the sacrifices of this unglamorous working man, rather than simply offering an effective staging of a Fire (!).

One could go on: the close-up of the fire handle being turned helps to make us, as spectators, feel personally involved in the drama, as does the crowd of spectators (absent in Fire!) who watch the fire trucks going by. The shot of the firemen jumping out of bed and descending the pole, followed by the trucks pulling out (yapped at by that little dog – planned or not, a very nice touch) fulfils the movie’s remit of showing us the ‘life of a fireman’; to us it might seem to drag a little, but actually it just shows how superior Porter’s film is as a documentary ‘slice of life’.

The difference between these two films is not wholly unlike that between the British Daring Daylight Burglary and The Great Train Robbery (both 1903, and I think Porter had definitely seen the British film before making his). Some of the shots in Burglary – the break-in seen from a high angle, the criminal beating a policeman to death on the roof (the body turns into a dummy and gets thrown off, as in Robbery), the chase down a rocky hill and over a stream – are well composed and aesthetically pleasing in a way that no single shot is in Porter’s film. The ending, with the other (evidently real-life) passengers looking on in bemusement as the burglar is ambushed and wrestled to the ground upon arriving at the station, is also, I think, more resonant and memorable than anything in Robbery.

Yet every single shot of The Great Train Robbery displays not only the greater resources at Porter’s disposal, but also the greater sense of showmanship associated with the name Edison. Just as in the fireman films, Porter is a master at getting the audience to feel involved (look at the right-hand corner of the first shot, with the passengers watching nervously from the train windows, oblivious to the robbers’ activities in the foreground). So while I sort of prefer the British films, it isn’t in the least surprising – or unfair – that the American ones have proven the more popular and influential. Tommaso is right to call them ‘hollywoodesque’, because they’re pioneering exactly the sort of film techniques which would turn film into an art form with mass appeal. Domino’s earlier comments on the Edison trademark in the bedroom in American Fireman are fascinating, but I read the importance of this in a more prosaic sense: it’s indicative of how professionalised film-making was becoming under Edison’s direction, foreshadowing the imminent development of the film industry. And needless to say, that’s a really important part of the development of film as an art.

Interesting discussion in the last few posts – I also am not sure how many of these very early films I could put on a ‘favourites’ list. Coming to terms with something ‘alien’ – whether we’re alienated from it in terms of time, culture or whatever – involves becoming more familiar and comfortable with the context, which with cinema usually just means watching more films from the period/culture. Here, though, the context is an audience who were seeing these sort of films for the first time, acculturating themselves to a completely new medium, and it’s perhaps impossible to re-create that context now. Lubitsch - as well as saying that it would be unjust to Bauer et al to put them lower down on a list than these early pioneers, you might equally say it’s unjust not to acknowledge the work which made those later masterpieces possible. You compared this era to a transitional period in painting, but we’re really looking at the birth of a whole art form – I can’t think of another art form whose birth and initial growth stages we can still spectate today, and in some respects there are no films greater, more important, or more beautiful than those of Méliès, Paul, Porter and so on, which forged the whole concept of cinema as an art form. I'm still coming to terms with it myself, though.
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thirtyframesasecond
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:48 pm

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#80 Post by thirtyframesasecond »

Have to tell you that silent film is my one shortcoming. Yes, I've seen Nosferatu and The Battleship Potemkin, but that's about it and certainly nothing within the era that this project covers.

Fortunately, I work for an academic library that possesses a lot of the films that have been mentioned here. We have the Mitchell and Kenyon docs, the early Russian BFI ten volume set, the early Griffith, de Mille and Feuillade films, some Starewicz, Sjostrom and Gance, the Italian classics of the era - Cabiria and L'Inferno, as well as the key documentaries mentioned. So there should be enough for me to work through in the next few months.

I watched Lubistch's The Oyster Princess earlier tonight, which I enjoyed - its light satirical humour, moments of surrealism and its detailed, opulent sets all impressed me.

I'm also reading Anthony Slide's Early American Cinema, which covers the period until 1920, to get a grounding of the era. Fingers crossed by May, I'll have seen more than enough to justly participate.
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nsps
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#81 Post by nsps »

domino harvey wrote:Porter's film remains alive and vital, especially in the wake of the discovery that for many years audiences were watching a re-edited version.
How do I know if I've seen the original or the re-edit? Where do I go for the best available "original cut?"

Also, I find the claim that Porter and Griffith are held as the two key figures in the early development of film rather laughable. Griffith of course is held in such high regards, but in my experience Porter has often been dismissed, despite FIREMAN and TRAIN ROBBERY being staples of any film history class. For various reasons, some of them valid, the early Edison films are often held in lesser esteem than the Lumiere material, and Porter was part of the Edison giant. I've always felt that Porter's love for experimenting with different techniques was overlooked in favor of a narrative of him being one of Edison and Ince's lackeys who accidentally did interesting things. Porter's failure to successfully pick up on new trends and transfer over to features in the teens didn't help his place in history.

Am I in the minority here? Did everyone else learn film history with Porter set on a much higher level than his contemporaries (i.e. Melies)?
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colinr0380
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#82 Post by colinr0380 »

I certainly agree with zedz about the Interior New York Subway. A very entertaining film that has a number of points of interest. As mentioned there is a very nice alternation between light and darkness as the train moves as well as a fascinating historical record. In addition it provides a privileged 'driver's eye view' of the action, so something you couldn't have gotten from simply riding as a passenger on the train. Also it seems to anticipate shots in many tense thriller films (Pelham One Two Three, Emperor of the North, Runaway Train etc) which show the action hurtling towards, and then safely past and to either side of, the camera at high speed.

In a way it is a development of the concept of the Arrival of a Train film by changing the viewer's position inside the action - instead of watching a fast moving object coming right for us we are instead on the fast moving object, and the whole world around seems to be moving around us while our position stays fixed.
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Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#83 Post by Tommaso »

Sloper, you make great points in 'defence' of the Williamson film, and you pretty much nailed the difference to Porter's in my view. But while I agree that indeed the mise-en-scene seems to be carefully planned, in the shot in which the firemen prepare to set out with their carts some apparently important things happen on the very fringe or outside the screen, with a gaping hole of an entrance in the middle of the frame. Nothing all too unusual with films of that vintage, and certainly not a real 'fault' considering the fixed camera position, but it's nicely telling how the 'learning of the language' was still in progress at the time.

I completely agree with what you write about the two robbery films. "Daring daylight burglary" is remarkably gritty for its time, four minutes of nearly unbroken violence. What I like about it is its conciseness and 'fastness'; "The Great Train Robbery" often seems to drag a little, with scenes played out for too long for their substance. I cannot help but find the Porter film very important, though, and for all the unsurprising reasons everyone gives for this. Practically everything we would associate with westerns is in there: bandits, a barn dance, a chase, even the attack on the driver from the top of the carriages. Endlessly copied in later films, obviously. But also the idea to connect various different actions, even in parallel montage near the end, in other words: to form an extended narrative from very different events makes this a far more 'developed' film than "Daring daylight burglary", which has this quality in a rough form, too, but for me feels much more 'unified' and centering on just one event.

Hmmm...and finally I find it funny (though in a nice way) how we manage to discuss these relatively unimportant early shorts to such a great extent, while other films hardly get discussed in this forum beyond talking about the image quality of their new dvd releases... :-)
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NABOB OF NOWHERE
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:30 pm
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#84 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE »

colinr0380 wrote:I certainly agree with zedz about the Interior New York Subway. ... Also it seems to anticipate shots in many tense thriller films (Pelham One Two Three, Emperor of the North, Runaway Train etc) which show the action hurtling towards, and then safely past and to either side of, the camera at high speed.

In a way it is a development of the concept of the Arrival of a Train film by changing the viewer's position inside the action - instead of watching a fast moving object coming right for us we are instead on the fast moving object, and the whole world around seems to be moving around us while our position stays fixed.
Not forgetting this staple of BBC interludes and its remake 30 years later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Ll96VN ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Sloper
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#85 Post by Sloper »

Tommaso wrote:"Daring daylight burglary" is remarkably gritty for its time, four minutes of nearly unbroken violence. What I like about it is its conciseness and 'fastness'; "The Great Train Robbery" often seems to drag a little, with scenes played out for too long for their substance.
Yes, I think the conciseness of these films (Desperate Poaching Affray is another good example) is undoubtedly part of what gives them greater appeal today than the Porter films we're discussing; but you're absolutely right to point out the latter's greater 'importance'. I suppose some of the very things which make these films seem to 'drag' today - things that make them a little harder to watch than the simpler, more concise British examples - are part of what makes them more innovative and influential.
nsps wrote:I find the claim that Porter and Griffith are held as the two key figures in the early development of film rather laughable. Griffith of course is held in such high regards, but in my experience Porter has often been dismissed, despite FIREMAN and TRAIN ROBBERY being staples of any film history class. For various reasons, some of them valid, the early Edison films are often held in lesser esteem than the Lumiere material, and Porter was part of the Edison giant. I've always felt that Porter's love for experimenting with different techniques was overlooked in favor of a narrative of him being one of Edison and Ince's lackeys who accidentally did interesting things. Porter's failure to successfully pick up on new trends and transfer over to features in the teens didn't help his place in history.

Am I in the minority here? Did everyone else learn film history with Porter set on a much higher level than his contemporaries (i.e. Melies)?
In about 1907-8 the high demand for a greater number of films, and the competition from other studios, meant that the films Porter churned out for Edison became less and less impressive; but yes, I'm sure you're right that he also proved unable to move with the times, as did Griffith later on (and as did Melies, I think? probably most people, in fact?). Surely, though, the line which says he wasn't all that important is a reaction against the more generally received opinion? I've never taken a film studies class, but the layman's version of film history certainly has Porter as a towering early figure.

My own sub-sophomoric take on it is that although Melies' films are, today, much more entertaining than Porter's, they are essentially elaborate magic tricks. This isn't to say that they're not incredibly important to the early development of cinema, but I think when it comes to the simple business of weaving a narrative, getting audiences emotionally involved in the plight of the human figures on the screen - in short, the kind of spellbinding that is not achieved through special effects - Porter's work is clearly more significant.

You can argue over how original/innovative he was, and cite other contemporaries (surely not the Lumiere brothers, though?) who were making equally impressive films, but as I said earlier we're really talking not only about the development of sophisticated film technique, but also about the development of cinema into a popular art form, and in a sense the people who get through to that mass audience, and are remembered and celebrated the most by succeeding generations, are the ones who deserve the credit, however unfair that seems. The same is true of Griffith: no, he didn't invent any of the tricks he later claimed to have invented, but I think it's in this context that Kevin Brownlow argues, 'a story belongs to the person who tells it best'; and to a great extent, a storyteller's success has to be measured by their audience. So the fame of The Great Train Robbery and American Fireman is a crucial indicator of Porter's stature, and there are many other celebrated examples, like Jack and the Beanstalk, The Kleptomaniac, The Ex-Convict, the aforementioned Teddy Bears, Rarebit Fiend, etc. I suspect I'll be strenuously (and perhaps silently) disagreed with on some of these points, however.
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nsps
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#86 Post by nsps »

I more or less agree with everything Sloper said regarding Porter's stature. And yes, the fact that he made one of the first "hit" filmed stories more or less ensures his place in film history. I'm just saying that in my experience, his name has never been taught with the same reverence as Griffith's, so it seems like somewhat of a false premise to knock down those two figures as the founders of film.

In my view, the earliest filmmakers were gathering up pieces to a puzzle that wouldn't be fully put together until others gave it a go years later, looking at the pieces with new perspective. Porter was one of the most curious and inventive people in Edison's stable, and was able to add artistry to the industry mentality present. That included the surprising, disconnected closeup at the end of Robbery, the by-default tracking shot on the moving train, the playful stop-motion material in the Teddy Bears and a lot more. So yes, I think Porter is a very important figure in early film, both on the merits of his films and their connection to audiences. If you try to say he is one of the two most important figures of the first 20 years of the medium, I'd need some convincing to go along with that. My point was that I've never seen that argument made, so arguing against it feels like tearing down a strawman.

Regarding your comment on Porter, like others, not being able to keep up with the times, he tried his hand at directing features—his first an adaptation of a play, I think—but proved unsuccessful and quit the business. I'm not sure if his features survives or not. I think he quit the business by 1915, so his longevity was about in line with Melies.
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knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:49 pm

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#87 Post by knives »

I knew I was going to put down a Ford, but didn't realize it was going to be Francis.
Finished The Invaders which is surprisingly modern in its plotting, like The Searchers or The Wild Bunch. Don't be fooled by the relation though, the older Ford is a very different story-teller from his brother. There's a seriousness and a card to the chest like dealing with it's more radical elements (basically a reversal having the white people as the invading savages and the Indians as the group protecting its people). I'm very impressed, are their anymore Francis Fords available stateside?
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Sloper
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#88 Post by Sloper »

I agree on the quality of The Invaders – it’s a masterpiece – but I’m not sure I read the politics in the same way you do, knives. The guy on the commentary track (on the More Treasures disc) also saw it as a story of the Native Americans being betrayed by the whites, but I wasn’t sure how seriously the film intended us to take this. There seemed to be a sense that the Indians (wrongly) took the railroad surveyors for settlers, and certainly their massacre of these surveyors was pictured as a tragic act of barbarism rather than ‘just retribution’. Also, the only sympathetic Native American was the girl – her love for the white man seemed designed to ‘redeem’ her in some way. Also worth noting that the brave who spies on the surveyors is motivated more by jealousy than a desire to 'protect his people' But yes I’m sure that, compared to a lot of the films on this subject, this one had a more ‘progressive’ or at least sympathetic attitude; and a cast of real Native Americans, which apparently was very unusual.

One of the joys of watching these early films is seeing the beautiful effects they achieved with natural light, which are sometimes enhanced by their glaring, ‘over-exposed’ look (which I assume is partly the result of age). There are several lovely examples here: the railroad surveyor wooing the girl by the stream (he standing in the sunlight, she in the foreground half shrouded in darkness, turning coyly towards the light); the rejected brave hiding in the bush, the shadows of the branches playing over his face, the oval leaves turning his eyes momentarily into two little black holes of menace; the gleaming smoke and dust of the battle scenes (these are great); and best of all, the shot of the massacred surveyors, their naked bodies draped over the white rocks in the lower part of the screen, blinding white in the sun, while in the upper half the darker forms of the Indian attackers slink away. Oh, and the final shot, which I won’t spoil – wonderful variations of light and dark, through the simple device of opening and closing doors.
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knives
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#89 Post by knives »

I agree that it is at least very cautious with its politics, but it does seem the storytellers sympathies lie with the Indians. Really though I think Ford is more making fun of the patriotic bravado of his day, which extends to today, by giving the native characters all the characteristics of a typical white and vice-versa, while keeping the natives attack as frightening. It would've at least left its audience questioning, one hopes.
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lubitsch
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#90 Post by lubitsch »

nsps wrote: Also, I find the claim that Porter and Griffith are held as the two key figures in the early development of film rather laughable. Griffith of course is held in such high regards, but in my experience Porter has often been dismissed, despite FIREMAN and TRAIN ROBBERY being staples of any film history class. For various reasons, some of them valid, the early Edison films are often held in lesser esteem than the Lumiere material, and Porter was part of the Edison giant. I've always felt that Porter's love for experimenting with different techniques was overlooked in favor of a narrative of him being one of Edison and Ince's lackeys who accidentally did interesting things. Porter's failure to successfully pick up on new trends and transfer over to features in the teens didn't help his place in history.
Am I in the minority here? Did everyone else learn film history with Porter set on a much higher level than his contemporaries (i.e. Melies)?
As pointed out, the Lumieres aren't exactly a good comparison. In fact what is that's readily available. The Edison box once again cemented the importance of Porter while we still have nothing or few editions of comparable weight for other companies and countries. There's Guy Blache and R.W. Paul, but I think we are in bad need for an update and expansion of the Early Cinema program.
Sloper wrote: My own sub-sophomoric take on it is that although Melies' films are, today, much more entertaining than Porter's, they are essentially elaborate magic tricks. This isn't to say that they're not incredibly important to the early development of cinema, but I think when it comes to the simple business of weaving a narrative, getting audiences emotionally involved in the plight of the human figures on the screen - in short, the kind of spellbinding that is not achieved through special effects - Porter's work is clearly more significant.

You can argue over how original/innovative he was, and cite other contemporaries (surely not the Lumiere brothers, though?) who were making equally impressive films, but as I said earlier we're really talking not only about the development of sophisticated film technique, but also about the development of cinema into a popular art form, and in a sense the people who get through to that mass audience, and are remembered and celebrated the most by succeeding generations, are the ones who deserve the credit, however unfair that seems. The same is true of Griffith: no, he didn't invent any of the tricks he later claimed to have invented, but I think it's in this context that Kevin Brownlow argues, 'a story belongs to the person who tells it best'; and to a great extent, a storyteller's success has to be measured by their audience. So the fame of The Great Train Robbery and American Fireman is a crucial indicator of Porter's stature, and there are many other celebrated examples, like Jack and the Beanstalk, The Kleptomaniac, The Ex-Convict, the aforementioned Teddy Bears, Rarebit Fiend, etc. I suspect I'll be strenuously (and perhaps silently) disagreed with on some of these points, however.
I strongly disagree on both points. First you greatly underestimate Melies. Yes, it's true his tricks are repetitive, he repeated his big successes ad infinitum and he didn't produce any worthwile standard narrative films. But his magic tricks show a stunning eye for cutting on action and matching the shots so perfectly can't have been easy. Further they are fast and energetic. You also forget his narrative films which are among the very first and show a filmmaker determined to create longer "specials". After all Voyage dans la lune IS one of the earliest longer efforts when most films were one, two minutes long. He tells a compelling story, manages some basic film technique very well and offers splendid effects all along. No contemporary matched him up to a certain point in the timeframe, many copied him slavishly and today he is still the one whose films we watch with a certain sense of wonder and are genuinely entertained which few films before 1913 really still can achieve.
The second point means more or less that you can close all film classes and burn the history books. I think it's very important not to let the victors write the history (as is often the case with genocides) and I don't see anything being gained by repeating plain lies or printing the legend. It's the supreme and final insult for those people who didn't have the luck being recognized for what they did.
knives wrote:I agree that it is at least very cautious with its politics, but it does seem the storytellers sympathies lie with the Indians.
That's not that unusual however, there was early on a sense of a great injustice being done and many early film reflect this. Among other films Griffith' The Redman's View is 100% pro indian, there's the documentary In the Land of the War Canoes, watch also Redskin from 1929 or the Silent enemy from 1930. Aside from the handful of great epics around 1925 and 1930, there are some films which are very much interested in indian culture and in an attempt to portray them fairly whatever the limitations these attempts have for modern viewers. only then began the Indins to decline in shooting gallery caricatures.
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Sloper
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:06 am

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#91 Post by Sloper »

lubitsch wrote:you greatly underestimate Melies. Yes, it's true his tricks are repetitive, he repeated his big successes ad infinitum and he didn't produce any worthwile standard narrative films. But his magic tricks show a stunning eye for cutting on action and matching the shots so perfectly can't have been easy. Further they are fast and energetic. You also forget his narrative films which are among the very first and show a filmmaker determined to create longer "specials". After all Voyage dans la lune IS one of the earliest longer efforts when most films were one, two minutes long. He tells a compelling story, manages some basic film technique very well and offers splendid effects all along. No contemporary matched him up to a certain point in the timeframe, many copied him slavishly and today he is still the one whose films we watch with a certain sense of wonder and are genuinely entertained which few films before 1913 really still can achieve.
I wouldn't disagree with any of this; I'd rather watch Melies than Porter any day. I was simply suggesting that someone like Porter achieved things with narrative film which make his work in some ways more important than those of Melies. Although I haven't seen as much Melies as I'd like to, I have seen several of his longer films, and I do think that Porter's approach to storytelling seems more highly developed; but that's not a point I could argue further in any great detail at the moment. And I know (or at least have heard somewhere) that Porter himself was greatly influenced by Melies, especially by his ventures into longer narrative films.
lubitsch wrote:The second point means more or less that you can close all film classes and burn the history books. I think it's very important not to let the victors write the history (as is often the case with genocides) and I don't see anything being gained by repeating plain lies or printing the legend. It's the supreme and final insult for those people who didn't have the luck being recognized for what they did.
Again, as a rule I would agree and I think this is a very fair point of view. But I maintain that your earlier dismissal of American Fireman, and your claim that it was a sub-standard plagiarisation of Williamson's Fire!, vastly underestimates Porter's film, and comes across as revisionism for its own sake. My comments on film history being written by the winners was tied into my suggestion that Porter showed a better understanding than Williamson of how to engage an audience in the unfolding story - that is, how to make a popular film - and that in some ways this might count for more than Williamson's technical prowess. We are, after all, not talking about genocide, but about the development of a popular art form. I'm all for celebrating unsung heroes (and as I said above, I do kind of prefer Williamson's film), but this shouldn't involve mindlessly trashing the better known figures, who were not only recognised for what they did but were also, almost invariably, forgotten and ignored for most of their own lifetimes, while the industry they helped to create ahead of them.
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Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 2:09 pm

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#92 Post by Tommaso »

lubitsch wrote:The Edison box once again cemented the importance of Porter while we still have nothing or few editions of comparable weight for other companies and countries. There's Guy Blache and R.W. Paul, but I think we are in bad need for an update and expansion of the Early Cinema program.
I couldn't agree more, but the question is how much of this material survives in at-all-presentable form. The BFI did great work on Mitchell & Kenyon, but they were in the lucky position to have found those extraordinarily well-preserved (for the time) negatives. Very little survives from Germany out of the first ten years of cinema, for instance. There are a few early German films on Filmmuseum's "Crazy Cinematographe" set (which I still haven't seen, but which sounds very interesting, not just from a historical perspective). But I do have the feeling that an awareness for the scope and diversity of earliest cinema has grown a lot in recent years, so much so that it almost eclipses the years 1905-14, for example. Perhaps this interest hasn't found its way over to the US yet, though.

As to revisionism etc: there have always been 'waves' of re-discovery of exciting but forgotten artists who then became introduced into the 'canon' for good reasons with their stature constantly growing, while other artists once extremely famous began to be eclipsed. Think of Powell & Pressburger on the one hand, Cecil B. DeMille on the other (though I have the feeling that interest in DeMille is rising again). But there is no reason to exclude one for the other in our thinking about cinema. I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with the 'ranking' of the importance of directors according to any sort of 'objective' criteria, though of course I feel entitled to have favourite directors for my own use. With individual films it's a different story for me; but much as I would like to see more recognition for Grune's "Die Strasse" or Pick's "Scherben", there's no reason to diminish the stature of "Metropolis" or "Der letzte Mann" for them. There's room for all of them, and probably there are others to be re-discovered as well, of which we all haven't really heard. But I can't find Noa's "Nathan" an important film only because it fell victim to history and the 'victors' re-writing of it. See, I have moved on to the 20s already....
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lubitsch
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#93 Post by lubitsch »

I freely admit to being aggressive about these matters, but the whole Porter/Griffith business is really discomforting to me. when we move to 1908-1913, then it's in fact almost completely Griffith you can see though some recent DVD publications thankfully begin to give us a fuller picture. Lois Weber's Suspense repeats Griffith' multiple times told story of Lonely Villa/Lonedale Operator and other films of his and she outdoes him on all accounts. High angle shots, ultra close-ups, split screens ... she completely outclasses Griffith. The Land beyond the Sunset which already James Card praised in his Seductive Cinema is one of the few 15 minute films of the era which really understands that you have to find a rhythm of your own for a short instead of telling compressed novels as Griffith often did. In a similar way Courage of the Commonplace establishes a wonderful feeling of realistic environment and the dreams the drab life encourages.
I've seen few of these narrative shorts of this era though the Gaumont set has made a few more available, but no Griffith matches the three I've seen and I strongly suspect that there's more out there. However the easy availability of Griffith output has led to a film history which is completely defined by his output in these years. While you have Lumiere/Melies/the Brighton school and Porter for the first decade of cinema, from 1908-1913 it's really a one man show and the film being slightly longer also means that you can't pack together hundred of them on one disc as would be possible with the earlier era. Instead of extending the knowledge of the era, many scholars have focused their energies on the immense Griffith project, an undertaking which tops any critical study on anything in film sciences.
That's why I am so furiously insistent on pulling lesser known films out of the twilight because this is a self-perpetuating cycle, the better known films get released, shown and written about again and again and with every book or DVD or retrospective they get more and more established as classics which has the effect that the other films automatically get sidelined and labeled obscure. and this all dates back to decisions made by very few people many decades ago.
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domino harvey
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#94 Post by domino harvey »

The popular overshadowing the underseen is true for every decade of film, including the one we're in now. But you don't see me getting mad at people in the 40s list for liking Casablanca
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lubitsch
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#95 Post by lubitsch »

domino harvey wrote:The popular overshadowing the underseen is true for every decade of film, including the one we're in now. But you don't see me getting mad at people in the 40s list for liking Casablanca
That's true, but you can at least freely see many, many films of the 40s. Try it with these older films. The arrival of DVD and the work of some institutions and museums thankfully changed this in the last few years and in time for our little list here, but for all the decades before only a handful of experts knew and wrote the history of this era.

BTW, shouldn't we try to contact Mr. Bordwell? He posted favorite lists for 1917-1919, has an acute interest in the era and I wonder how his list would look.
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myrnaloyisdope
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#96 Post by myrnaloyisdope »

I agree with Lubitsch that there is a glaring lack of awareness and availability of the films of 1908-1913. Having now seen some of Thomas Ince's work, along with the shorts from the period that appear on the Treasures from the American Film Archives series (including the aforementioned Land Beyond The Sunset, easily top 5 for me), I'm convinced that there is a whole landslide of great work waiting to be discovered.

I watched Porter's How They Rob Men In Chicago and was floored by the fact 25 seconds of film could be so loaded. It's part one-note joke, part social critique and part savage political commentary. The film is comprised of 3 simple actions:

1. a well dressed man is walking when a prostitute catches his eye
2. distracted he is struck on the head twice by a thief who proceeds to steal his wallet while he lays prone on the ground
3. a beat cop now walks by, sees the prone body and proceeds to take the man's watch

And that is How They Rob Men In Chicago.
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zedz
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#97 Post by zedz »

A couple of recent viewings:

The Abyss

In which Asta Nielsen has various trashy new age experiences underwater.

Actually no. This landmark half-feature from 1910 marks the advent of one of cinema’s first real stars in the modern sense, and, given the progress of film technology and grammar to that point, it’s state of the art.

The camera is generally static, and scenes rarely extend to multiple shots except when absolutely necessary, but Urban Gad’s mise en scene is quite sophisticated within those historical constraints. Although the material is familiar melodrama, and the film’s notorious set piece is a theatre performance, the film itself is mostly liberated from the stage. One of the hallmarks of Gad’s style in this film is the use of real depth in real settings, particularly with ‘deep focus’ compositions of characters emerging from and receding into the distance. For technique trainspotters, the film also features a couple of pans.

The other hallmark of the film, and what made it a sensation, is Asta Nielsen, whose performance is head and shoulders above those of others in similar material. Her presence is a decisive step towards a distinctive style of film acting, and she invests a generic fallen woman role with a measure of compassion and subtlety. But let’s be honest: it’s Asta’s amazing hip-swivelling dance that’s the star-making performance here, and a hundred years later it retains its seductive power, a landmark of sex on screen.

Image

On a juvenile note, I’ve always found the end title of the film, capping Nielsen’s groundbreakingly sympathetic portrait, jarringly hilarious. And it’s an inadvertent joke that follows through in several of her subsequent films.

The film is available in several parts on YouTube. Starting here.


Cenere

And speaking of great screen performances – ladies and gentlemen, Eleonora Duse. This is her only screen role and she’s phenomenal. Whether or not Cenere offers an accurate record of her stage presence is irrelevant, as her performance here is so beautifully calibrated to the demands of the form it’s quite modern. It’s almost as if Duse was terrified of overacting for the camera, so she presents a stillness and restraint that’s startlingly fresh.

One interesting aspect of the performance is that we barely see her face in the first section of the film. In part, this is probably to conceal her advanced age, but rather than compensate with pantomime, she pares the physical acting back as well. Duse’s performance in one particularly dramatic early scene is delivered in longshot, in shadow, behind distorting glass. Another moment of high tragedy (this is the story of a mother separated from her son) is delivered as an agonized shadow falling across a stone wall. Even though she can reveal her face in the later parts of the film, Duse often performs with her back to the camera or her face obscured by her cloak. It’s an excellent less-is more performance, and the other performances, though not as powerfully restrained, are forced to tone themselves down to respect Duse’s gravity, and they all benefit from the exercise.

And there’s a lot more to the film than Duse. There’s a mastery of classical mise en scene in real settings that’s almost Fordian. It’s really a handsome looking film. There’s one particularly great shot in a mill where the camera starts static in a corner, then starts to track as a donkey crosses in the front of the frame, following the animal and the grindstone it’s hauling, then carrying on beyond that specific action to take in the rest of the scene.

A minute of so later, there’s a magnificent shot as the shadow of a child – taken to the mill to be handed over to his father – falls across the floor, the feet of the mill workers arrayed across the top of the frame.

Director Febo Mari (who also plays the adult son) makes great use of negative space and asymmetry to create tension in his compositions. This is a film about incomplete lives, after all, so a shot of a man sobbing on his bed on the right hand side of the screen while a wall creates an abstract void on the left is thematically resonant.

Image
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swo17
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#98 Post by swo17 »

Mitchell & Kenyon
I went through the Electric Edwardians set the other day, and was affected by these films quite a bit more than I expected to be. There's a real sense of discovery here--for the filmmakers, seeing the world for the first time through a lens; for the films' subjects, fascinated to have their lives captured by this box with an all-seeing eye; and for us, granted this intimate glimpse into a world and people long gone. Films like these are most likely to fall victim to vote splitting, so allow me to put in a word for Panoramic View of the Morecambe Sea Front. It's a fairly impressive tracking shot to begin with (or whatever they called tracking shots back then), with a pleasant view of the beach in the background. As the camera pans across a sea of people dead in their tracks, just staring at us, it's almost downright eerie in places, but there's also a certain playfulness and beauty in two young boys determined to keep up with the moving camera, running along side it and constantly looking back at us. Also, on a purely cosmetic note, the film's title rolls off the tongue a whole lot more smoothly than something like Alfred Butterworth and Sons, Glebe Mills, Hollinwood (another great little film!) and is appropriate to the poetry of the film itself. I know folks in the U.S. would probably have to import this set from the U.K. in order to see it, but I'd say it's well worth the plunge!
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Tommaso
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#99 Post by Tommaso »

I couldn't agree more; I also think the M&K-Films are a truly major discovery, not only bringing to our attention a very typical but largely forgotten form of early filmmaking, that of 'local films for local people' (to use M&K's promotional slogan), but they also have a very special, often almost dreamlike quality for a modern viewer. This is certainly enhanced by the In The Nursery music on the 'Electric Edwardians' disc, but also works without it. I already named "Morecambe Sea Front" as a personal favourite earlier in this thread, and for the same reasons you like it so much, too. A very beautiful and touching film.

Just two additions: what you describe as a tracking shot was at the time called 'phantom ride' and was created by fixing the camera on a moving vehicle, most often trams and trains, occasionally also horse-carts or something similar. And secondly, people don't have to import the disc from the UK; as far as I know Milestone released it in the US.
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swo17
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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

#100 Post by swo17 »

Tommaso wrote:people don't have to import the disc from the UK; as far as I know Milestone released it in the US.
Ah, I see it just came out in R1 last year (Netflix even carries it). I guess there's no excuse now for anyone not to check it out! Just as a final note, Morecambe Sea Front is the very last short featured in the set.
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