The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[knives]

What? TGtB&tU, not fun? It's one of the most sheer entertaining westerns this side of Howard Hawks. Although OUATIW is clearly better.

While I like the later two Westerns better(haven't seen America) I somewhat agree with Domino. It's not that the long was is bad, it's very fun and every second with Wallach deserves applause and of course that score. There's so much more fun to be had with For a Few Dollars More though which, as Domino said, plays out in a straight forward and traditional manner while still subverting expectations. At the very least van Cleef is one of the most interesting protagonists Leone came up with.

[zedz]

After being very impressed by Leone's westerns as a teen (when I couldn't get enough of in-you-face capital-S Style), they are films that have had diminishing returns for me over the years. Once upon a Time in the West was always my favourite, maybe because it goes the furthest both in filling in the characters and tackling the grand myth of the American West, and it will still make my list, but each viewing makes it seem a little thinner. While it's nice to see westerns with a political edge, the colour-by-numbers Marxism in the films couldn't be much more obvious, and I'm not exactly sure what purpose it serves (America is a capitalist society where money trumps everything? You don't say.)

[swo17]

Do you mean Once Upon a Time in America?

[zedz]

Do you mean Once Upon a Time in the West?

Duh! Yes. I think I was conditioned by domino's post above. I was thinking he was referring to Once upon a Time in the West, but it was of course the odious America he had the reaction against. I'll go back and correct it, just to make these posts completely bewildering.

EDIT: And. . . touché!

[domino harvey]

Rudolph Mate's the Violent Men is aided by a great cast-- Glenn Ford, Barbara Stanwyck, Edward G Robinson, Brian Keith, Richard Jaeckel, and a particularly game Dianne Foster-- at the service of an interesting variation of the Big Country's pacifism skepticism. Here Ford's character actively avoids getting involved in affairs that aren't his and the movie opens with a shocking sequence in which a friendly sheriff is gunned down in front of the affable Ford and he merely shrugs and refuses to name the culprit. So the film immediately takes a hard line and that devotion to the complexities of the idea are what ultimately make it so successful. Stanwyck is great as a total ice queen who at one point throws the crutches of Robinson's crippled cattle baron into a fire-- going after the handicapped, now that's a villain! This is definitely making my list.

Henry Hathaway's Nevada Smith has a weird lineage. It's based on Alan Ladd's fictional western referenced in the interminable the Carpetbaggers, and this spin-off(?) at the very least improves upon its original source (though so would anything). The film straddles a weird time in Hollywood filmmaking where the filmmakers were getting their feet wet in pushing the envelope a bit but still afraid or unable to really go for the extremes, meaning we get a needlessly gruesome death for Steve McQueen's parents (they are skinned alive), but the violence on-screen is still of the representational sort. McQueen is pretty terrible here, worse than usual, but the supporting cast is top-notch. It goes without saying that Arthur Kennedy rises to the top here as a smooth swamp-stuck criminal, but Karl Malden has fun with his heavy as well. Janet Margolin from David and Lisa briefly pops up as a squaw to distract everyone now watching with nagging questions as to why she wasn't a bigger star with looks like that. Suzanne Pleshette is also around as a Mexican prostitute or something-- this movie takes some pretty ridiculous leaps of logic that are a little hard to buy into at times! Overall I enjoyed the strange episodic nature of the film to a degree, but this one's mostly just a curiosity.

[Yojimbo]

Suzanne Pleshette is also around as a Mexican prostitute or something-- this movie takes some pretty ridiculous leaps of logic that are a little hard to buy into at times! Overall I enjoyed the strange episodic nature of the film to a degree, but this one's mostly just a curiosity.

Speaking of 'la belle Suzanne' ,when I was a lad/schoolgoing teenager, she seemed to guest star in literally every tv series I watched, - and probably plenty more I wasn't allowed watch, too. I used to think that she, as I did with Tom Tryon a few years previously, was one of the biggest stars in the World,.....EVER!
Would it be be too harsh to refer to as 'a poor man's Liz Taylor'?
I've rarely seen her in any films since leaving school, though, so if only for nostalgia reasons I might check this one out.

[domino harvey]

I liked her well-enough in that Delmer Daves vacation postcard she did. Also, I have been thinking about it and it is possible that her character was supposed to be creole or some approximation thereof, which still says a lot about this flick haha

And Elizabeth Taylor is already a poor man's Elizabeth Taylor!

[Yojimbo]

I liked her well-enough in that Delmer Daves vacation postcard she did. Also, I have been thinking about it and it is possible that her character was supposed to be creole or some approximation thereof, which still says a lot about this flick haha

And Elizabeth Taylor is already a poor man's Elizabeth Taylor!

I was, of course, referring to pre-Larry Fortensky era Liz, dom
Or even pre 1970's Burton-Taylor on-again off-again on-again tabloid Superstar Liz.

Sounds like Suzanne would make the perfect mate for Jay C. Flippen's blue-eyed Red Indian of Sam Fuller's 'Run of the Arrow'

[domino harvey]

Speaking of Delmer Daves, last up on the block was 3:10 to Yuma. Daves is so good in his later period melodramas, where his flourishes and simplifications reflect against each other to form a prism of soapy orgiastic emotion. But his lefty moralizing is front and center here, as it was in Broken Arrow, and while that was a passable misfire, this is a full-blown disaster. Glenn Ford, miscast (sorry, "playing against type") as the genial heavy and Van Heflin, rarely worse, as the emasculated cowhand turned policing savior, take turns rubbing elbows with messages and ideas as explicit as they are goofy. I could see the basic material working in a completely reconstituted form, but as is, no sale. This is possibly the only film that could be shown on a double bill with High Noon and come off as less obvious. Most unintentionally hilarious moment: Thinking to myself, "This movie can't get any worse" right before dude's wife shows up for no logical reason whatsoever. Actually, given Daves' adeptness at raw juvenile emotion, it's surprising how flat the romantic maneuvering of the two female characters falls. This just doesn't seem to be his genre, to the point that it nulls out what he does best-- though we'll verify/refute that claim with Daves' Cowboy, next up in my stack.

[Yojimbo]

We'll agree to differ, then, on '3:10': I suppose you're going to tell me you love the remake?

Daves' 'The Hanging Tree' might be the best of his films, although, or but for, that ending, which I hated.
I wonder was that Karl Malden's idea, though: I see IMDb 'credits' him as 'finishing' the picture.

One of Gary Cooper's finest late period performances I think, along with 'Man of the West'

[domino harvey]

We'll agree to differ, then, on '3:10': I suppose you're going to tell me you love the remake?

No interest in seeing it beforehand, and now zero interest, uh, afterhand.

Thanks for reminding me to pick up the Hanging Tree along with A Distant Trumpet and Along the Great Divide from Amazon.fr-- any other good French-only Western releases (of Archive titles or otherwise) out there?

[Yojimbo]

We'll agree to differ, then, on '3:10': I suppose you're going to tell me you love the remake?

No interest in seeing it beforehand, and now zero interest, uh, afterhand.

Thanks for reminding me to pick up the Hanging Tree along with A Distant Trumpet and Along the Great Divide from Amazon.fr-- any other good French-only Western releases (of Archive titles or otherwise) out there?

I must check out French Amazon; I haven't bought anything from them in almost a year, and probably haven't done much looking there, either.
I think the only Western I bought from them, apart from a John Ford mini box-set or two, was the Montparnasse version of 'Wagonmaster'

[domino harvey]

Well, I'm not wild about it, but Daves' Cowboy does fare better than the other westerns I've seen from him. Jack Lemmon tries to prove himself to his lady love's father by quitting the hotel business and investing in Glenn Ford's cattle herding business, becoming hardened and "masculine" along the way thanks to Ford's cartoonishly inhumane behavior. The narrative itself is a mess and I didn't enjoy this one much while I was watching it, but thinking back on it, it's hard to deny that the film is saying some interesting things about the false glamorous sheen given retroactively to filmic cowboys. Glenn Ford does the John Wayne in Red River thing where the audience only gradually realizes he's the antagonist, and he fares better in such a role than he did in Yuma. Daves still shies away from embracing the melodramatic moments here with Lemmon's doomed relationship, but at least we get a stab at cultural awareness (another Daves hallmark) and it's to the film's credit that it begrudgingly accepts the decision of Lemmon's paramour as dutifully necessary to her cultural position. Also, neat-o and completely tonally inappropriate opening credits by Saul Bass (his only western besides the Big Country?)

As for Once Upon a Time in the West, well, now that I've seen it, I can say at the very least that I liked it more than any of the Eastwood Leone pics, and it's very good (but not great). I don't quite get its epic western masterpiece reputation, though. If anything, the best thing it has going for it is how laid-back and small scale it is. It has a real lackadaisical charm and all the little Leone directorial affinities seem to be working more in tandem than ever before or since. Too bad he couldn't resist that scene of Cardinale whoring it up with Fonda, but it could have gone worse (see: all of Once Upon a Time in America).

[domino harvey]

I watched more alleged western "comedies," though all three gave up on being comedies about half way through, which speaks to why they are a mite more successful than some others, though only one was really any good.

The Rare Breed is an Andrew V McLaglen slightfest about some stuck-up British broads transporting their sissy pure-bred mating bull with the help of James Stewart, in utter paycheck mode. Ben Johnson steals the show with his two minutes of screen time as a crippled cowhand Stewart takes pity on-- not a good sign when the tertiery characters outshine even the supporting cast. Not that Brian Keith doesn't give it a try, as he, in one of those Vietnam performances (You just don't know unless you were there, man), plays a cavemanish Scottish cattle baron by way of Scrooge McDuck accent and Yosemite Sam facial hair. Aye Begorrah!

George Marshall's Destry Rides Again is actually funny on occasion and didn't make me want to blind myself. Could it really be a western comedy then? I guess technically it should be classified a musical, which would put it in good company (the Harvey Girls, Calamity Jane, Red Garters which I only remembered while watching this-- all three making my list, and hey, this probably will too), so that's probably why it isn't horrible. Honestly, it's a pretty well-paced ensemble bit of fun until it comes off the hinges with the silly action ending that comes from another movie. Dietrich is sexy fun, Stewart's a riot, and Mischa Auer's pantless Russian walks off with the film every time he's on screen.

The Nunnally Johnson-scripted Along Came Jones is pretty inconsequential, though to be fair I have little patience for mistaken identity comedies. It does take a real serious turn after about thirty minutes and there's some shocking violence here, including what must have been a first for a film made this early: a character is shot in the head and we see the exit wound in the middle of his forehead! Yikes! Other than that, I doubt I'll remember anything about this one in a week's time. How can you put Gary Cooper, Dan Duryea, and William Demarest in a film and not come up a winner? Well, here we are.

[knives]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, though I have a fondness for Along Came Jones, with Destry Rides Again being a near great film(the only western comedy I would dare call great is Blazing Saddles which may get top ten for me). I actually like your idea of it as a musical. I can only remember the Dietrich doing Dietrich scenes though. Nothing to make it especially musical. Did you mean in overall feeling than. Sort of like how Scott Pilgrim is a musical even if it doesn't have much in the way of singing.. I have to say more than Auer I can't help but fall to the floor when Charles Winninger does just about anything.

[Yojimbo]

How can you put Gary Cooper, Dan Duryea, and William Demarest in a film and not come up a winner? Well, here we are.

somehow, I just can't imagine them combining to great effect; great in their own way, in the right environment, but not together

[domino harvey]

You'd be right, Yojimbo!

Knives, Destry Rides Again actually doesn't feel like a musical (the structure's way off, for one), but there are at least three musical numbers, so I was loopholing my enjoyment more than anything. Winninger is great, though I must admit I spent much of the movie trying to decide whether or not he was Alan Hale

Speaking of top tens, I'd be genuinely curious to hear from other participants what their top five or ten looks like as of now (here or via PM)-- I really have no idea what the consensus titles will be beyond the three or four obvious ones

[zedz]

Very early stages, of course, but my first throw-things-at-a-wall and see what sticks ended up with these ten floating to the top:

The Searchers - Well, duh. Obviously great filmmaking, but it's the film's troubling, niggling, complicated take on racism that keeps me fascinated, year after year.

Man of the West - Outstanding in almost every respect, and again it's got a depth and darkness that few films of any genre attain. Number one will be a mood-of-the-day thing, I suspect.

My Darling Clementine - This, on the other hand, is a film that doesn't have such a deep personal resonance for me, but every time I watch it I can't believe how utterly perfect it is, from second to second: a textbook of classical filmmaking.

The Hired Hand - My favourite revisionist western, and again it's a standout in all manner of different, specific disciplines (performances, music and above all cinematography).

The Man from Laramie - So hard to pick one among the Mann / Stewart westerns, and no top ten would be complete without at least one, but this strikes me as the most mythic, with the strongest Stewart performance.

Seven Men from Now - A mere placeholder, as I'll need to revisit all of the cycle to see whether this one, The Tall T or Ride Lonesome comes out on top.

The Shooting - Even if I am favouring the classical side of things, there will be no shortage of Warren Oates in my top ten.

Ride the High Country - The greatest 'last western' ever made.

Pursued - . . . and the greatest 'noir western'.

The Tall T - see above

The wild card in all this is Black God, White Devil, which I'll be rewatching soon to see if I reckon it counts as a western. If it does, it will probably bump one of these.

[Yojimbo]

As of now; I'm going by their placings in the Top ranks of my All-time Top 1,000 listings
(or at least, my Top 1,000, as of about a year ago)

(Top 10)
My Darling Clementine (1946) : the quintessential Western

(Top 143)
Shane (1953) its been there for so long, although its appeal might be dimming after many re-watches
Wagon Master (1950)
Stagecoach (1939) (yep, all The Old Masters' best Westerns are in b&w)
Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo. (1966) (I think that final scene is the clincher)
Johnny Guitar (1954)
Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (1973)

(Top 302)
Winchester '73 (1950) (the presence of Dan Duryea is a big bonus; as is the luminous b&w cinematography)
Ride Lonesome (1959) (gets the nod over 'The Tall T', despite the absence of Richard Boone)
Red River (1948) (despite the unsatisfactory ending)


(Top 302), but just bubbling under my Western Top 10
The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976)
Dead Man (1995)
The Wild Bunch (1969)
Per qualche dollaro in più (1965)


I know, very safe, and boring, yadda, yadda, but as somebody who likes to challenge the established order of things, I just can't find enough reasons to displace them.

[knives]

You'd be right, Yojimbo!

Knives, Destry Rides Again actually doesn't feel like a musical (the structure's way off, for one), but there are at least three musical numbers, so I was loopholing my enjoyment more than anything. Winninger is great, though I must admit I spent much of the movie trying to decide whether or not he was Alan Hale

Hmm, I'll admit to being to unfamiliar with the genre to say anything about your structure observation, but that's one hell of an attempt to make sense of a prejudice.
As for my favorites beyond what I've already said I'd have to say The Naked Spur which to me is the perfect Mann feature and the perfect prelude to Peckinpah. In fact the violence here, probably because it is Jimmy Stewart, causes me to flinch in a much stronger manner than even the nastiest by Peckinpah. Additionally I have a real soft spot for The Far Country. I'm not sure what about it makes me love it more than the popular films, but it's there. Maybe, and this is a total guess, that love comes from Mann for what I know as the only time in his career applies his destruction of masculinity to a woman. Other Mann pictures use women, but it's in typical roles of femininity. Here it shows that masculinity is self-destructive even for those naturally inclined for the feminine which is a unique enough spin for me.
I'm basically in the same boat as Zedz in regards to Boetticher. My Fords are probably going to be Wagon Master and Stagecoach. Both have that simplicity and humour that he does so well. I might make room for The Shootist if just because it's one of those mythical Wayne can act features.
As for the ones I'm not entirely sure count as westerns I wouldn't mind voting for Cannibal: The Musical, The Wind, and Viva Zapata. I'm also going to try to sneak in Taza if just for being the only good Cochise film.

[domino harvey]

I often feel like I'm a little off to the side of most people's tastes, and this is certainly one of those times! I've heard the perfection claims on My Darling Clementine often and it's a good film, but mid-range Ford for me and in no danger of making my list. Wagon Master, as some of you might remember, I actually hated, and I have similar feelings towards the Far Country, though it's been so long since I've seen it all I can remember and contribute to debate about it the memory of my strong negative reaction upon first viewing. The Tall T had the same prurient attitude towards violence that I found so objectionable in the Hitch-hiker, so much so that I still haven't bothered with the other four films in the set, though I will get to them in time for this list. Too many people who I respect have raved on the Boetticher/Scott collabs to not overcome my bad first encounter.

Now, on to the good: the Naked Spur will be the Mann/Stewart in my top ten (it was already there before zedz sagely predicted the necessity of its placement, but when the man's right, he's right). Wyler's the Westerner too will likely make the top ten, as will Calamity Jane and Yellow Sky. Leading the front, still, is Stagecoach, the Gunfighter, and Red River, as perfect a trio of wise and entertaining westerns as man has ever been gifted, and of course with Man of the West sitting comfortably in the number one slot.

[domino harvey]

Oh, I almost forgot: My aunt and uncle are real ranchers (my aunt was even president of the Cattlewomen's Association!), so they are as close to "real" cowboys as you can get these days (my uncle is a walking John Wayne, for real, right down to the ascot). This past Christmas I asked their opinion of the best westerns and they told me "Anything with John Wayne, Shane, and the Man From Snowy River." For whatever that's worth!

[knives]

Wyler's the Westerner too will likely make the top ten

While it won't likely make my list I do have a fondness for this one pretty exclusively because it's what I remember and envision people who have never seen a western before, but know of the genre would come up with. From the story(all of it)to the acting that simply would not work in any other genre it's as much a western as any film could ever be. In that regard I suppose it is the best western as a western.

[Yojimbo]

I often feel like I'm a little off to the side of most people's tastes, and this is certainly one of those times! I've heard the perfection claims on My Darling Clementine often and it's a good film, but mid-range Ford for me and in no danger of making my list. Wagon Master, as some of you might remember, I actually hated, and I have similar feelings towards the Far Country, though it's been so long since I've seen it all I can remember and contribute to debate about it the memory of my strong negative reaction upon first viewing. The Tall T had the same prurient attitude towards violence that I found so objectionable in the Hitch-hiker, so much so that I still haven't bothered with the other four films in the set, though I will get to them in time for this list. Too many people who I respect have raved on the Boetticher/Scott collabs to not overcome my bad first encounter.

Now, on to the good: the Naked Spur will be the Mann/Stewart in my top ten (it was already there before zedz sagely predicted the necessity of its placement, but when the man's right, he's right). Wyler's the Westerner too will likely make the top ten, as will Calamity Jane and Yellow Sky. Leading the front, still, is Stagecoach, the Gunfighter, and Red River, as perfect a trio of wise and entertaining westerns as man has ever been gifted, and of course with Man of the West sitting comfortably in the number one slot.

:-k hmm, Calamity Jane .....moving quickly along. :-s
Yellow Sky, the Gunfighter, and Man of the West are shoo-ins for me, certainly in my Top 30, as is zedz' 'Man From Laramie', 'The Shooting', 'The Tall T', the Westerner and 'The Shootist'.
(Walter Brennan's delicious performance in the Westerner probably makes my Top Ten Western performances)
And defin-itely 'The Ballad of Cable Hogue , which might be my third-ranked Peckinpah Western ahead of the somewhat overrated 'Ride the High Country'
Its a toss up between which of the Mann-Stewarts is next: 'The Naked Spur', or 'Bend in the River'; I think James Stewart goes a tad over-the-top borderline manic psycho in the former, which is a big negative for me, so the latter might just shade it.
I've yet to see 'Seven Men From Now', but I now have all of the Scott-Boettichers on DVD, so I've no excuse

[Yojimbo]

Oh, I almost forgot: My aunt and uncle are real ranchers (my aunt was even president of the Cattlewomen's Association!), so they are as close to "real" cowboys as you can get these days (my uncle is a walking John Wayne, for real, right down to the ascot). This past Christmas I asked their opinion of the best westerns and they told me "Anything with John Wayne, Shane, and the Man From Snowy River." For whatever that's worth!

I don't think I've ever seen the Man From Snowy River: is Denver Pyle in it?

'Shane' is a beautifully written novel, too; one of the few Western novels I've read, admittedly.
My paperback version has a beautiful watercolour reproduction on the cover