We Need to Talk About Kevin (Lynne Ramsay, 2011)

[flyonthewall2983]

I watched that working out the other day. All I could think of was this...

Spoiler

she is a bisexual man's dream. And that is meant as a compliment.

[knives]

I wonder how many times she's gotten that compliment.

[Lars Von Truffaut]

Well Charlie seems to think that her charms work on heterosexual men as well. I found the ending to be my favorite part of the interview, at about 21:30.

[cdnchris]

The film only manages to be interesting when we're presented with a mother who dislikes her child - who feels (and is) unloved by her small son, and doesn't know what to do about how trapped she feels. There aren't many films about people who genuinely can't stand their children, and that would have been an interesting avenue to explore, were we not shown that Kevin is a demon spawn that was born at midnight and will grow up to do heinous things that'll ruin his mother's life forever. And is a mean jerk who is really really mean.

I was actually having the same reaction as you until I realized he looks like an absolute monster because the film is heavily skewed from Eva's point of view. Basically the whole film is told from her perspective, how she saw things, and she that disliked, possibly hated her son since birth, so she saw him in a certain light. She read everything he did as some "evil" and manipulative deed. Did he really scratch at his scar that she is the reason for in a manipulative effort, or was he really scratching it because it actually itched? Did he really give her an evil stare after she found the dead pet, indicating he was the reason for it, or did he just happen to look up at her at that moment and had nothing to do with it? So on and so forth. Going through the supplements on the BD seemed to confirm this was the intent as Reilly talks a little about how he had to remember the film was from Eva's point of view and that nothing was exactly as is, which played into his performance. I don't think the film is entirely successful, since it feels Ramsay still gets heavy handed and never makes it entirely clear, going down the more thriller route, but I think once I realized this aspect I forgave the demon-child angle because it's being amped up from her perspective. She basically hated the kid since birth, never wanted him, and saw him as the worst thing to happen in her life. And I liked that from this it raises the questions about whether he is this way because of her feelings towards him, or if she has these feelings because she always knew "that boy ain't right." I think the only time we probably see the true Kevin is at the end just before he's to be transferred. Reading articles about the book (haven't read the book itself) seems to suggest that it's told from Eva's point of view and that it's hard to determine how honest she's being about everything, and I'm assuming Ramsay tried to reflect that (without voice over, wisely) by making Keven appear worse than he probably is.

The townspeople constantly harrassing her and the cliche of the one surviving victim (in wheelchair no less) sort of irked me and seemed a bit much. But I'm from a small town and I can tell you that it probably wouldn't surprise me if many/a majority held it against her. When Columbine happened you'd almost swear it happened in my town. People really did blame the parents and if it happened there I can guarantee you a lot of people would have tried to bully them out of town. There was a shooting where somebody killed his wife/girlfriend (I can't recall if they were just living together) and her lover, then himself, and probably would have killed anybody else in that house if they were there. The surviving daughter, who was an adult, was pretty much ostracized from the community, and you always heard people talking about her in an unfair light. This drove me up the wall because she obviously had nothing to do with it, but people just assumed there had to be something wrong with her, too. I don't doubt many would constantly harrass Eva, but I know there would also be the rational people who wouldn't hold it against her. Though there were a few characters who obviously didn't blame her or care about her past, Ramsay still gives the idea everyone is against her and doesn't really balance it out and focusses more on the abuse she faces. I think this is what annoyed me about this aspect of the film (but of course, the crazies are going to be more vocal, right?)

[mfunk9786]

I may not have been fair with regards to the film being from Eva's perspective, but that still leaves some gaping holes (that you've touched on a bit). Kevin's psychosis turns out to be something that is very real (evidenced by his final actions, and I'd argue that the incidents with the pet and his sister's eye are pretty clear-cut as well considering the surrounding factual circumstances laid out), so the air is essentially let out of the premise that Eva's dislike of her son is mostly delusional, or somehow misguided (once he becomes of age, at least). If we see the real version of Kevin at the end of the film but haven't thusfar, what's the real explanation for why the hell he did what he did? The film tries to have it both ways and it diminishes the whole.

As for the town's reaction - if Kevin had just done what he did at his school, I would understand the portrayal of anger and resentment toward Eva - but I find it extremely bizarre that, considering the entirety of Kevin's actions, that she could find no solace in people's sympathy or at the very least, apathy. Perhaps I'm just naiive, but I don't know of too many people who very publically, tragically, and violently have their

Spoiler

entire families

taken from them through no fault of their own and then are screamed and spat at by everyone they meet.

[cdnchris]

I may not have been fair with regards to the film being from Eva's perspective, but that still leaves some gaping holes (that you've touched on a bit). Kevin's psychosis turns out to be something that is very real (evidenced by his final actions, and I'd argue that the incidents with the pet and his sister's eye are pretty clear-cut as well considering the surrounding factual circumstances laid out), so the air is essentially let out of the premise that Eva's dislike of her son is mostly delusional, or somehow misguided (once he becomes of age, at least). If we see the real version of Kevin at the end of the film but haven't thusfar, what's the real explanation for why the hell he did what he did? The film tries to have it both ways and it diminishes the whole.

I guess I should have pointed out that there is something definitely wrong with Kevin, there's no doubt, and I hope I didn't come off like I was defending the chracter--in the end he's still an evil child whether it's just how he was born or because of the lack of a loving mother. I think my idea is her initial repulsion or how she saw him could have planted the seed of his development (could have, I don't think the film is clear, purposely, whether it's all on Kevin or whether Eva played a big part in his evil) and she never once did warm up to him because she just always saw him as this awful thing that ruined her life, and she amplified it, even as he did get worse. He would of course detect this and probably become defiant with her so I'm sure he probably did purposely make life harder for her and that some of the mind games they played with each other were genuine, but whether all of it was for real I'm not sure. I also think he did want his mother's affection but could never attain it (I get that from his "you put up with me" line). I think this could have possibly really played into his development. And he obviously has a lot of resentment towards her, shown in their conversations, like his reaction to her "fat people" remark, and then his annoyance at her when she tried to pretend she actually gave a crap about his life during their dinner.

My feeling as to why Kevin did it is that it was his way to get back at her.

Spoiler

Taking out everyone in the family other than her suggests, of course, he really wanted to hurt her in the worst way possible

, and by this point he didn't really give a rat's ass so why not take out other people that probably pissed him off and leave his mark (which reminds me that I was actually a bit annoyed by the lack of explanation as to why he obviously targeted certain students, though maybe in the end it doesn't matter.) I think when we see him in prison, nervous, he is really still hoping for some connection with his mother, and he actually does get it, more or less, in the final bit. But of course he could still be messing with her.

As for the town's reaction - if Kevin had just done what he did at his school, I would understand the portrayal of anger and resentment toward Eva - but I find it extremely bizarre that, considering the entirety of Kevin's actions, that she could find no solace in people's sympathy or at the very least, apathy. Perhaps I'm just naiive, but I don't know of too many people who very publically, tragically, and violently have their

Spoiler

entire families

taken from them through no fault of their own and then are screamed and spat at by everyone they meet.

Well, yeah, it doesn't make sense, but then in the case of my hometown why would people talk rumours about the woman whose parents are both dead through no fault of her own? True, she didn't get spat on in this case, just talked about behind her back. I don't consider Ramsay a subtle director so it's probably her heavy handed touch in this case, with some of the things that happen to Eva. But I could still buy people possibly doing awful things to her if their own children or grandchildren were murdered by her son.

[mfunk9786]

I appreciate your perspective on it, and I think we've both reached the same conclusion in the end: This is a very messy film that can't quite get a grasp on what it's trying to do/say. So we'll agree to agree

[cdnchris]

I think I liked the film, which surprised me because I didn't like Ratcatcher and was prepared for this one to be an over the top mess. I think it's ultimately about what made Kevin the monster he obviously becomes and maybe where the blame lays (his mother's coldness towards him or he was born that way.) But I agree it is a bit of a mess and quite a bit of it is not at all subtle probably because Ramsay felt inclined to have more thriller elements to it, and having him come off as the spawn of Satan doesn't help (though I'm still of the belief it's being exaggerated in places by his mother.)

[Brian C]

I don't think the movie stands up to scrutiny either way, but I think the "mom made him that way" angle is even more tedious than the "he was born that way" angle; it turns the film into an exercise of facile mom-shaming. If even a fraction of the kids out there with emotionally distant moms turned out to be serial killers, all of us would be dead. There's not even any sign of real abuse, just a mom who would have otherwise preferred to not be a mom. It's an extremely unsympathetic and even hostile look at parenting if we see it though this lens.

Even still, if that's what it's about, it was an extremely poor choice to show events solely through the mom's perspective. It obscures the true nature of her relationship with her son for no good discernible reason, and it naturally leads audiences to privilege her emotional state over the others' in her family and to legitimize her treatment of Kevin in situations that would otherwise seem borderline. Indeed, it invites us to hate Kevin as much as she does.

That might be a worthwhile way to do accomplish some things, and perhaps make for a novel and challenging film, but not in the service of what is essentially "BAD MOM! BAD!"

[HistoryProf]

Having just finished this, I have to agree with those who found it rather messy and a big disappointment considering the press it received. I think it's been pretty well dissected, but I did want to say that I don't think it matters whether the 'point' is examining how Eva's parenting may or may not have had anything to do with Kevin's actions. It's all set up as Damien the Archer with no room for any other interpretation. It was calculated, the applause he hears upon leaving the school, his posturing in the gym - all of it clearly aspects from HIS perspective that illustrate he was just one psychotically fucked up kid from the word go.

As a result, I especially don't understand at all the community reaction given her suffering. The added casualties beyond the school render that aspect of the film totally implausible to me. I grew up in a small town, and we had two tragedies that could be considered comparable in some sense, and the overwhelming sentiment was pity and people distanced themselves from the survivor(s). The coworker at the Christmas party was even more over-the-top in this vein...the only word I can find that accurately describes my impression of Ramsey's portrayal of Eva is sadistic. There are some incredibly tense moments, and it's beautifully shot, but overall I have to grade this one a failure. The entire first half with the young actor became tedious and bordered on the ridiculous with the Damien treatment, smiling for dad, and cunning manipulation that simply wasn't remotely believable. And you can't say that's exaggerated and then later show the grown Kevin acting in precisely the same manner in the present and beyond her recollections on that fateful day. His UPS delivery renders that supposition totally irreconcilable with the idea that she was merely remembering him as pure evil.

Tilda Swinton, however, is amazing as always. I only wish the film was more assured of what it wanted to do and say.