Technical Issues and Questions

[David M.]

The US version of the ST50 actually doesn't do native 24p, there are options for 48hz (flickery but smooth motion) and 60hz.

Don't worry about it though, for whatever reason sending 24p to the plasma and having it output at 60hz doesn't result in much judder. It's a hell of a display.

[Perkins Cobb]

Precisely! I'm now through the 100 hours, and have applied the settings. They look pretty good to my eyes, but I do want to have it done professionally later on.

Personally, I've gotten into the habit of color-correcting a little for each film, or at least create a few different custom settings to toggle between. Once you're looking at Blu-ray on a big plasma, a '50s Technicolor film, a grungy '70s exploitation film, and a contemporary TV series may not all be shown to their best advantage. Plus, you'll hit some transfer flaws (overbrightness, color boosting) that you can fight a little bit, if not fix.

(A side note: If you do find some custom settings you like, WRITE DOWN THE NUMBERS. As I learned the hard way after the storm last month, a four-day power outage will wipe the Viera's memory.)

[David M.]

Personally, I've gotten into the habit of color-correcting a little for each film, or at least create a few different custom settings to toggle between. Once you're looking at Blu-ray on a big plasma, a '50s Technicolor film, a grungy '70s exploitation film, and a contemporary TV series may not all be shown to their best advantage. Plus, you'll hit some transfer flaws (overbrightness, color boosting) that you can fight a little bit, if not fix.

(A side note: If you do find some custom settings you like, WRITE DOWN THE NUMBERS. As I learned the hard way after the storm last month, a four-day power outage will wipe the Viera's memory.)

That's actually a common misconception that the manufacturers have pushed, that the controls need to be constantly adjusted.

All professionally produced material is made to the same (or, since we have SD/HD, very similar) standards because it is produced on professional broadcast monitors (Conrac, Sony BVM, etc.)

Regardless of the chemical process used during the film stage, it's transferred to the same video system using calibrated equipment. Critical color correction work in telecine suites is done on monitors which are designed to conform exactly to the video standard and will be checked (and if necessary, re-adjusted to conform to the standard) at least every few weeks. So in that sense, the post production process is the equalizer.

Of course if the home TV hasn't been calibrated, it won't be accurate anyway, so adjusting the controls every so often won't really matter because the color will be distorted regardless. But, you shouldn't need to adjust the settings for each different film. One size should fit all since its tightly specified during content production. Unless you want to temporarily adjust the controls for that rare bungled disc, that is, if you know for sure that something is wrong with it.

[zeroism]

The US version of the ST50 actually doesn't do native 24p, there are options for 48hz (flickery but smooth motion) and 60hz.

Don't worry about it though, for whatever reason sending 24p to the plasma and having it output at 60hz doesn't result in much judder. It's a hell of a display.

I was referring to the 48hz mode, which I've been led to believe is the TV's mode for displaying 24p; is that not the case? I'm probably in a minority, but I do like the 48hz flicker. It looks like projected film to me, or at least something closer than what I see with traditional 60hz display.

EDIT: Perhaps I'm just using incorrect terminology; maybe I shouldn't have said 'native' 24p?

[zeroism]

Personally, I've gotten into the habit of color-correcting a little for each film, or at least create a few different custom settings to toggle between. Once you're looking at Blu-ray on a big plasma, a '50s Technicolor film, a grungy '70s exploitation film, and a contemporary TV series may not all be shown to their best advantage. Plus, you'll hit some transfer flaws (overbrightness, color boosting) that you can fight a little bit, if not fix.

(A side note: If you do find some custom settings you like, WRITE DOWN THE NUMBERS. As I learned the hard way after the storm last month, a four-day power outage will wipe the Viera's memory.)

Well, David M's post confirmed the impression I'd had with regards to this. There will always be bad transfers, however, as you say. I've thought about mucking around with something like the Taiwanese blu of Dust in the Wind to see if I could get something more accurate looking, but I'm not sure I have the expertise (or that the TV has enough options) to truly correct things like that routinely.

Writing down the numbers is certainly good advice. I've made sure to keep a record of all of my settings.

[David M.]

I was referring to the 48hz mode, which I've been led to believe is the TV's mode for displaying 24p; is that not the case? I'm probably in a minority, but I do like the 48hz flicker. It looks like projected film to me, or at least something closer than what I see with traditional 60hz display.

No, you're right. I was sort of writing the 48hz mode off because most people hate it so much (it's not on the models I'm used to). Since 48 is 24x2, it can be thought of as "native 24p" in a sense.

[zeroism]

No, you're right. I was sort of writing the 48hz mode off because most people hate it so much (it's not on the models I'm used to). Since 48 is 24x2, it can be thought of as "native 24p" in a sense.

Oh, I see. That's the impression I had regarding it being 'native 24p'.

I had read some of the reactions to the 48hz mode before I bought the set, and had been expecting something a bit extreme, but was pleasantly surprised. I only really notice a strong flicker on very bright scenes and whites, but I don't find it distracting. I only watch films in total darkness, which may have something to do with it.

[JonasEB]

Well, David M's post confirmed the impression I'd had with regards to this. There will always be bad transfers, however, as you say. I've thought about mucking around with something like the Taiwanese blu of Dust in the Wind to see if I could get something more accurate looking, but I'm not sure I have the expertise (or that the TV has enough options) to truly correct things like that routinely.

I've found a way to do that. If you haven't already seen my post about it here it is - http://criterionforum.org/forum/viewtop ... 43#p384143" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[zeroism]

Thanks. I remember seeing your post, but I'd forgotten that you'd outlined your process in detail. I'll see if I can do something similar with my setup.

[richard_t]

but I still have one concern: probably 95% of the set's use will be for viewing films, and as for most of you I'm sure, a majority of these will have some sort of pillarboxing or letterboxing. I don't watch cable or any other broadcast television, nor much other modern content aside from films, which I would imagine sets me apart from most people using these sorts of TVs - in other words, the vast majority of the content I view won't fill the entire screen.

Is anyone else here in a similar situation with a plasma they've owned for a while? Is it really necessary to keep my viewing of such content to a minimum for the first 1000 (or other magic number) or so hours? Should I be concerned about 'uneven aging' in those corners that get considerably less use?

I've got a plasma that I use only for watching films on (currently a Panasonic 65VT50 and previously a 50" Pioneer Kuro) and so I'm in a very similar situation. I don't even have a TV feed going into my screen at all.

I'd say that image retention and uneven wear is definitely something to be concerned about but in my experience can be alleviated by simulating 'normal' TV use. What I do is to plug an indoor aerial into the TV after every film I watch (unless it was 1.78:1 of course) and then leave the TV playing to itself on full screen content for a few hours afterwards. I've done this from day one on both of these panels and always kept a close eye on things. There was the slightest bit of uneven wear on the Pioneer after 3 years use but this was visibile only on black screen when viewed in my blacked out room and definitely nothing I could see when an image was being displayed. The Panasonic is only about 3 months old but is so far perfect.

Both of these screens are ISF calibrated though and have relatively dim images due to being viewed in a blacked out room. Your mileage may vary I guess if yours is displaying a much brighter image.

[Jean-Luc Garbo]

Which models of the Panasonic and Samsung plasmas (or LCDs) have the best sound output? I'm reading various reviews on Amazon where people are especially critical of the speakers on various sets. Or is a soundbar upgrade the only solution anyway? I'm not looking for living room surround sound, but I'd like something that's better than computer speakers. A few of the BDs I have already are for films with great sound so I'd like to enjoy the sonic improvement as much as I can.

[David M.]

The built in speakers aren't suitable for any serious movie watching. The panels are too thin for that. At the very least get a soundbar, or ideally a full audio setup.

[TMDaines]

We have a soundbar at home and as the bulk of the stuff I watch is designed for nothing more than stereo, I cant say I really notice not having a 5.1 setup.

[triodelover]

We have a soundbar at home and as the bulk of the stuff I watch is designed for nothing more than stereo, I cant say I really notice not having a 5.1 setup.

Looking at the vast majority of films discussed here, I can't how one justifies the extra expense of 5.1 when 2.0 would be more than adequate (and if you use the system for music, too, drastically reduce the complexity and potential signal degradation). Of course, it's easier to say that when your two speakers are these. \:D/

[Jean-Luc Garbo]

The built in speakers aren't suitable for any serious movie watching. The panels are too thin for that. At the very least get a soundbar, or ideally a full audio setup.

Is there a particular audio input-output that I should pay attention to on these TVs when I do get a soundbar? Or is the soundbar a single cable sort of deal?

["membrillo"]

Built in speakers and soundbars don't cut. You don't have to go 5.1 but at the very least get a decent 2.0 or 3.0 setup with an average AVR. It wont cost much and you'll notice a vast improvement.

For about ~$1,000 you can put something together that is worth your while. I wouldn't bother spending money on audio otherwise...it just is not worth it. You can try going used on Audiogon or AVS if price is the main issue.

[triodelover]

[quote=""membrillo""]I wouldn't bother spending money on audio otherwise...it just is not worth it.[/quote]
I really don't understand this. Why isn't audio worth it? It's as much a part of the film experience as the video (if it's a talkie ). Do you also listen to music using the same system- something other that crappy mp3s? I'm not suggesting you need to spend megabucks. There are a lot of ways to get good sound. Now I would agree that a lot of money spent on AV receivers and multi-channel amps isn't worth it. But a good two-channel preamp and amp or a good integrated?

["membrillo"]

I think you're missing my point. Of course audio is "worth it" if done right. It's simple cost benefit analysis:

Spending a few hundred dollars for very marginal improvements such as a soundbar is what I am referring to as "not worth it" when you can easily get greater impact by spending a few more dollars on the appropriate equipment.

["membrillo"]

There are a lot of ways to get good sound.

That's a whole 'nother can of worms that we should stay away from, at least on this forum.

[triodelover]

[quote=""membrillo""]I think you're missing my point. Of course audio is "worth it" if done right. It's simple cost benefit analysis:

Spending a few hundred dollars for very marginal improvements such as a soundbar is what I am referring to as "not worth it" when you can easily get greater impact by spending a few more dollars on the appropriate equipment.[/quote]
Sorry. My bad, I misunderstood you.

[Adam X]

The US version of the ST50 actually doesn't do native 24p, there are options for 48hz (flickery but smooth motion) and 60hz.

Don't worry about it though, for whatever reason sending 24p to the plasma and having it output at 60hz doesn't result in much judder. It's a hell of a display.

Bringing the conversation back to the picture side of things - just decided to buy a 50" ST50 (they don't sell 'em any smaller in Australia) after reading comments in this thread and elsewhere online, and I'm wondering about the above comment. Would be nice to know if anyone can confirm either way as to the refresh rate the Australian sets play 24p content.
Looking at the the US specs vs UK/Australia specs, under 24p playback , the UK & AUS sites list 24p playback being 2:2, US as 3:2.
Does 3:2 suggest the set uses 48Hz in 24p playback & 2:2 24Hz, or something else altogether. The US page is the only one that specifically states the use of 48Hz in 24p playback, as mentioned by David M. above.

US: http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P50ST50?t=specs

AUS: http://panasonic.com.au/Products/VIErA+ ... ifications

[Adam X]

oh, and on the subject of breaking-in a plasma.
I generally understand the why, but not so much the when/how.
Is it suggested to only play these slides over the first 100 hours and nothing else, or just when you're not watching a film?
If I were to avoid watching anything but films/TV shot in 1.78/1.85 over the first 100 hours, would this have much the same affect as the slides?

Trying not to be needlessly paranoid about this whole plasma thing...

[David M.]

Bringing the conversation back to the picture side of things - just decided to buy a 50" ST50 (they don't sell 'em any smaller in Australia) after reading comments in this thread and elsewhere online, and I'm wondering about the above comment. Would be nice to know if anyone can confirm either way as to the refresh rate the Australian sets play 24p content.

They're the same as the Euro ones in this regard.

In fact, all of the world's Panasonic HDTVs are more or less in one group. The only continent that does things differently is North America - I don't know why.

So the Australian version takes 24p input and outputs at 96hz.

oh, and on the subject of breaking-in a plasma.
I generally understand the why, but not so much the when/how.
Is it suggested to only play these slides over the first 100 hours and nothing else, or just when you're not watching a film?
If I were to avoid watching anything but films/TV shot in 1.78/1.85 over the first 100 hours, would this have much the same affect as the slides?

Trying not to be needlessly paranoid about this whole plasma thing...

Don't be paranoid. Personally, I've never done "break in". I've just taken extra care during the first 100+ hours.

[Adam X]

So the Australian version takes 24p input and outputs at 96hz.

How does this affect the image, as opposed to playback at 24Hz?

Personally, I've never done "break in". I've just taken extra care during the first 100+ hours.

This is what I gathered, from what I've read online. Thanks David.

[David M.]

24hz would flicker like crazy. No PDP can output at 24hz for that reason. The closest thing is the US Panasonics which have a 48hz mode which few people use.

The higher the refresh rate goes on a PDP, the noisier the image gets (less gradation) in order to sustain the same brightness level. So, I don't know why Panasonic didn't just go for 72hz output (24 x 3) which would get them out of the flicker zone.

Probably because 96hz (24 x 3) is very close to 100hz (50 x 2), which is what 50hz content is output at. Less troubleshooting and optimization with only 4hz difference. Don't worry though, the image isn't noisy at 96hz, I'm just thinking aloud.