The Lists Project

[MichaelB]

We also shouldn't forget point of view as well.

Absolutely not, not least because a great many documentaries were commissioned in the first place in order to put across a particular viewpoint - usually something that the funding body would endorse.

And this holds true for a surprising number of incontestably great documentaries - Humphrey Jennings's films were almost exclusively made either for the GPO (a commercial concern) or the Ministry of Information (as government propaganda), and the vast majority of eastern European documentaries from 1945-90 were funded by bodies with strong links to the Communist Party, so explicit criticism of its policies was completely out of the question - although imaginative filmmakers found plenty of ways of getting their message across to what were often extremely receptive and savvy audiences.

In fact, looking over John Krish's career, it's arguable that he found it more creatively stimulating to have a definite message than otherwise, even if the ways of expressing that message were often wildly imaginative (for instance, The Finishing Line with its ultra-gory parody of a school sports day, made to promote rail safety).

There are also documentaries that transcend their original purpose - Geoffrey Jones's films are all notionally "documentaries" (and I'd defend the eligibility of every one of them: they were sponsored by the likes of British Transport Films and Shell to promote their businesses), and yet his work has far more in common with Norman McLaren and Oskar Fischinger than he does with that of his more workaday colleagues. As indeed does Len Lye's - and presumably his GPO work like Trade Tattoo is also eligible? And how about a Quay Brothers film like Anamorphosis? Or even the original version of Švankmajer's The Ossuary (i.e. with the spoken commentary)?

(I suspect I'm going to have the exact opposite problem to Yojimbo - I have no problem citing at least fifty documentaries that more than deserve repeated viewings, and whittling it down is going to be a huge challenge.)

[knives]

As things stand, I doubt very much that I'll be able to even come close, on this occasion.
(never mind get to see contributors 'dahhlings')

Which is why you should take the time to explore the world of documentaries. Just in the recent releases from BFI I'm sure a fair list of fifty could easily arrive. Add to that some standbys by Herzog, Wenders, Morris, Burns, and many others and getting up to that magical number should be a piece of cake.

[swo17]

There are also documentaries that transcend their original purpose - Geoffrey Jones's films are all notionally "documentaries" (and I'd defend the eligibility of every one of them: they were sponsored by the likes of British Transport Films and Shell to promote their businesses), and yet his work has far more in common with Norman McLaren and Oskar Fischinger than he does with that of his more workaday colleagues. As indeed does Len Lye's - and presumably his GPO work like Trade Tattoo is also eligible? And how about a Quay Brothers film like Anamorphosis? Or even the original version of Švankmajer's The Ossuary (i.e. with the spoken commentary)?

Anything that you think qualifies as a documentary is technically eligible, though if it's a bit of a stretch, you're advised to bring it up in the thread and defend why you think it qualifies, if only because others might not think to consider it otherwise.

[MichaelB]

As things stand, I doubt very much that I'll be able to even come close, on this occasion.
(never mind get to see contributors 'dahhlings')

Which is why you should take the time to explore the world of documentaries. Just in the recent releases from BFI I'm sure a fair list of fifty could easily arrive. Add to that some standbys by Herzog, Wenders, Morris, Burns, and many others and getting up to that magical number should be a piece of cake.

The comparatively brief running time of many documentaries (and their easy availability on YouTube) should make it even easier. I can't imagine any serious top fifty not including something by Humphrey Jennings, and yet only one of his films is longer than an hour - most are less than twenty minutes.

For starters, here's Geoffrey Jones's Snow in its eight-minute entirety - and that more than stands up to repeated viewings!

Anything that you think qualifies as a documentary is technically eligible, though if it's a bit of a stretch, you're advised to bring it up in the thread and defend why you think it qualifies, if only because others might not think to consider it otherwise.

Oh, of course - and I genuinely don't think anything I've cited thus far would be especially hard to defend. As Zedz will confirm, some of the definitions of "documentary" in the great PWA series of Polish documentaries seem to be considerably looser!

[knives]

In I suppose one of the more interesting question marks we'll have since they precede ideas of documentary, but what's the consensus on actualities?

[Yojimbo]

As things stand, I doubt very much that I'll be able to even come close, on this occasion.
(never mind get to see contributors 'dahhlings')

Which is why you should take the time to explore the world of documentaries. Just in the recent releases from BFI I'm sure a fair list of fifty could easily arrive. Add to that some standbys by Herzog, Wenders, Morris, Burns, and many others and getting up to that magical number should be a piece of cake.

The comparatively brief running time of many documentaries (and their easy availability on YouTube) should make it even easier. I can't imagine any serious top fifty not including something by Humphrey Jennings, and yet only one of his films is longer than an hour - most are less than twenty minutes.

For starters, here's Geoffrey Jones's Snow in its eight-minute entirety - and that more than stands up to repeated viewings!

Anything that you think qualifies as a documentary is technically eligible, though if it's a bit of a stretch, you're advised to bring it up in the thread and defend why you think it qualifies, if only because others might not think to consider it otherwise.

Oh, of course - and I genuinely don't think anything I've cited thus far would be especially hard to defend. As Zedz will confirm, some of the definitions of "documentary" in the great PWA series of Polish documentaries seem to be considerably looser!

Of course, YouTube: if nothing else it could help fill that Ivens gap that occurred when my box-set order was inexplicably cancelled
Which reminds me also of that Varda docu.-set I need to dig out
Undoubtedly there is great documentary-art out there....

[Mr Sausage]

This could conceivably be the first list where more Criterion supplements chart than Criterion films.

[zedz]

And a number of comments have already revealed why this is such a worthwhile project, because if your idea of a "documentary" is merely a load of straight-to-camera talking heads interspersed with the occasional still or film-clip illustration, you've got untold numbers of treats in store.

Maciej Drygas (Poland) - a great film-archive archaeologist, often taking newsreel footage and matching it up to audio material from other sources: for instance, A Day in People's Poland (2005) matches nondescript "official" images with transcripts of things like interrogations that were happening behind the scenes.

Oddly enough, Drygas' Hear My Cry is pretty much a bunch of talking heads interspersed with film-clip illustration, but. . . oh my. You can never second guess what a master filmmaker will be able to do with a given form.

This is as good a time as any to urge those who haven't done so already, and who want to get knee-deep in this project, to pick up those Polish documentary sets we've been harping on about for so long. Crazy cheap, Criterion-quality, and so consistently marvellous that I can't in good conscience recommend only a handful of them.

[zedz]

As indeed does Len Lye's - and presumably his GPO work like Trade Tattoo is also eligible? And how about a Quay Brothers film like Anamorphosis? Or even the original version of Švankmajer's The Ossuary (i.e. with the spoken commentary)?

I was already going to be voting for The Ossuary, on the grounds that astonishing editing isn't enough to turn a documentary into a non-documentary, and I wasn't even going to limit myself to the narrated version, but I hadn't thought about Lye yet. Rhythm, all sixty seconds of it, is sort of the ultimate condensation of the industrial documentary. I was also intending to vote for Chris Welsby's thrilling Seven Days, which is a wildly dynamic structuralist film, but also a documentary in its purest form, since it derives its form entirely from the documentation of a specific natural phenomenon. This project is going to be like trying to cram the entire animal kingdom into a birdcage.

[Yojimbo]

This is as good a time as any to urge those who haven't done so already, and who want to get knee-deep in this project, to pick up those Polish documentary sets we've been harping on about for so long. Crazy cheap, Criterion-quality, and so consistently marvellous that I can't in good conscience recommend only a handful of them.

I seem to have missed all that harping
Got a link, guv?

[zedz]

Harpo Marxism

[swo17]

I believe they're also discussed throughout this thread.

Also, even if you completely hate traditional documentaries, there should still be enough amazing artistic achievements that also just happen to be documentaries for anyone to easily fill out a top 50. For instance, Salt for Svanetia.

[knives]

Is Salt for Svanetia really a documentary? I mean I get that fiction has a long and strong history in documentary and I know several of my choices will have no verite footage, but I always took it as a traditional docu-drama that was simply made greatly rather than a documentary propaganda reasons for existing aside.

[MichaelB]

This is as good a time as any to urge those who haven't done so already, and who want to get knee-deep in this project, to pick up those Polish documentary sets we've been harping on about for so long. Crazy cheap, Criterion-quality, and so consistently marvellous that I can't in good conscience recommend only a handful of them.

There've been thirteen to date, and there isn't a weak link anywhere. And although it's tempting to go for the big names like Krzysztof Kieślowski and Andrzej Munk, the real surprises are people like Maciej Drygas, Marcel Łoziński, Władysław Ślesicki and the unclassifiable Wojciech Wiszniewski, all of whom were completely unknown to me before I started delving into their work.

Here's Łoziński's tribute to the GPO Film Unit, the lovely Poste Restante (2008) - handily, it has no spoken content at all and precious little onscreen text: all you need to know is that the bulk of it is set in the Polish Post Office's Undeliverable Letters Department (the sign marked Wydział Przesyłek Niedoręczalnych), that the letter addressed to 'Pan Bóg, Niebo' means 'God, Heaven', and the actual content of the letter is:

Spoiler

Dear God, if I was sertain you were there, I wouldn't feel so alone. Let me know quikly if you are. Ania.

(I'm transcribing the subtitles on my copy, the childish spelling presumably reflects the original)

[knives]

Marcel Łoziński

I was trying to remember his name. A tremendous talent in every way. His short with the kid and another on a railway station are jaw dropping in how they top the form he's toying with.

[Yojimbo]

Harpo Marxism

Cheers, zedz.
That looks interesting: I hope the preferred payment option wasn't Poland's answer to yer traditional Nigerian bank account scam.
Pity my Polish neighbours have just moved on

[Yojimbo]

PWA, eh?
'Poles With Attitude'? :-k

[swo17]

So I've written something up to try to address all the recent discussion in this thread. I acknowledge that part of this proposed language (giving the option to vote for the whole or a part of any "combined" films) is a deviation from the established rules. If several of you don't like that, I can get rid of it, though this seems to me to be a more democratic approach that will make the most people happy. Let me know what you guys think.

4) Multi-part films released separately (e.g. Eisenstein's Ivans) count as one film. Each entry in a trilogy (e.g. Ray's Apus) counts as a separate film.

4) In certain cases, it may be appropriate for films that are technically separate to be combined, or for films that are technically combined to be separated. In such cases, you may vote for either a part or the whole, but bear in mind that all votes will be competing against each other (e.g. a vote for Ivan the Terrible Pt. 1 will not count toward the vote for Ivan the Terrible in the final tally). Generally, if multiple films are allowed to be combined for voting purposes, you should probably vote for them that way unless you are strongly opposed to doing so. The most common cases:

• Single-director multi-part films for which each segment was released separately (e.g. Feuillade's serials, Lang's two-part epics) may be considered as a single film. Films included in trilogies may not be combined.

• Variant edits: For films that exist in multiple versions (e.g. Welles' Mr. Arkadin, Rivette's Out 1), all votes that don't specify a "secondary" version will be counted toward the "primary" version.

• Portmanteau films: Each of the individual segments and the film as a whole are all separately eligible.

[zedz]

That sounds sensible to me, and the 'opt out' clause for variant edits allows people who feel strongly about a particular version of a film to let their voice be heard (or, more likely, deliberately not be heard).

[knives]

Yeah, that sounds real good.

[bamwc2]

So, is the documentary project definitely a go then?

[knives]

Yes.

[domino harvey]

I had assumed this but it's worth getting some clarification: docufictions (not to be confused with docudramas) will be eligible for the Documentary List, right? Thinking of things like Man of Aran or Moi, un noir or educational shorts, &c

[zedz]

I had assumed as much too. Even when films like those 'cheat', they're still a big part of the ongoing history of documentary filmmaking. Like it or not, staged scenes have been an intrinsic part of the form from the Lumieres through Nanook, right up to The Thin Blue Line and The Arbor.

I'm also assuming that 'essay films', even when they get as fictionalized and murky as some of Marker's later stuff like Level Five, will be acceptable?

[matrixschmatrix]

For ethnofictions or docufictions or what have you- probably something best judged on a case by case basis, but my impetus would be to say sure. I mean, if Nanook counts- which it obviously must- I don't see how Man of Aran could be blocked.

For essay films, again I can imagine corner cases that might not fit, but I think as a subgenre they fit into the documentary umbrella.