Kino

[matrixschmatrix]

Haha, if I measured the value of things by whether or not I'd rewatched them in the last three years like 80% of the stuff I have would be deemed worthless. To me, at least, a Kalat commentary is worth the price of admission on its own. Also, if you buy directly from MoC, it's free shipping.

That said- it's not entirely fair to compare product between companies, they're theoretically for different markets. It's a shame if Kino's putting less effort in, but obviously, the market is "everyone who wants this movie and is Region A locked" (I'm assuming?) It's not like Metropolis, where it looked like they were doing some dirty dealing on the region locking or whatever, they're free to be less awesome than MoC.

[MichaelB]

That said- it's not entirely fair to compare product between companies, they're theoretically for different markets.

Theoretically yes, but in practice UK independent labels pretty much always check out the competition before drawing up their own specs - I've certainly done this myself for my own projects. And I remember talking to James White when he was working on such potentially tricky titles as the BFI's Red Desert and Good Morning, when other editions weren't so much viewed as scoured.

But Kino has the advantage of direct access to a much, much bigger market than MoC, which may well be why they don't necessarily think it's worth making the extra effort to stand out.

[Orlac]

Kino's will be bought by me for the English intertitle option, and the MOC for the commentary.

[vsski]

I continue to be baffled by some of the comments that seem to be made for clearly inferior packages and even being region locked is a personal choice these days and no longer an economic necessity (look at the price of the recent Sears region-free player). And please don't come with the argument there is enough product in the US market, so why go elsewhere - not if you consider yourself a serious cinephile (no one has made that statement yet on this last exchange, but I have read it one too many times on other threads here).

There is no price difference for the core product since when ordering the MoC directly from them it's the same as ordering the Kino through an internet e-tailer, if not cheaper. And timing wise they both come out around the same time - MoC usually ships their preorders early.
And while I agree that the best set of extras is worthless if the main title's A/V is bonkers, repeatedly in the last year have the MoC releases been at least slightly better than the Kino ones, but even if you consider them being on par having at least the option of a nice array of extras should swing the scale in MoC's favor.

And yes, I like Kino for their silent output, but not at the expense of getting inferior product on their other releases.

Of course everyone should do whatever they feel is best for them, I just don't understand the arguments being brought forward.

[Gregory]

I don't think there's much to disagree about. I respectfully acknowledge that many want to pick up Kino releases rather than their MoC counterparts for various reasons, even though a lot of them may not know what they're missing.

Discounts vs. shipping cost = same or lower. $29.00 (U.S.) vs. $31.00 (U.K. before shipping - you can add $5 - $10 more after.).

MoC/Eureka tend to sell Blu-rays for £13.99 with free shipping, so about $22 shipped vs. $28 at Amazon for the Kino.

Anyway, just like every other company of this type, the "real price" isn't the MSRP; you don't pay that with Kino just as much as you wouldn't with Criterion or Olive or anyone else.

I'm baffled that so many forum members see a need to point this out in many threads. What's the point? I already explicitly stated the difference between the preorder price and the MSRP. Discussing MSRPs is still relevant when looking at the pricing structure a label is using. Kino's tend to be too high for what they offer because they have a captive region-locked market even more for Blu-ray than they did with DVD, and they can easily get by on the large demand for titles like Nosferatu.

What I find "ridiculous" is the attitude here that a release like this is completely worthless simply because it doesn't have a commentary track and a booklet. Like it's impossible to be happy with such a thing.

No one said any such thing, and that's clearly not true. What's the problem with pointing out the reasons that the MoC is superior?

I agree, the cover art isn't great but...who cares? It means nothing.

Quite a few people still care about good design. Of course it doesn't matter to everyone, but I think as more and more people move to streaming and downloads, those who continue to buy physical media are more likely to care about the quality of the design, packaging and general presentation.

[swo17]

Discounts vs. shipping cost = same or lower. $29.00 (U.S.) vs. $31.00 (U.K. before shipping - you can add $5 - $10 more after.)

Nosferatu will be available direct from Eureka about a month before release for £13-14 (less than $22 USD under today's conversion rates), with free shipping.

[MichaelB]

What I find "ridiculous" is the attitude here that a release like this is completely worthless simply because it doesn't have a commentary track and a booklet. Like it's impossible to be happy with such a thing.

Well, I argued elsewhere that I was veering towards Artificial Eye's barebones Satyajit Ray discs as opposed to the Criterion ones, because the transfers of the feature were from the same restorations, and the Artificial Eye discs were vastly cheaper to a UK-based purchaser like me - essentially, I'd end up paying a very substantial amount for extras that I couldn't swear I'd ever get around to watching.

But the "Artificial Eye discs were vastly cheaper" was a crucial part of my argument - and, as others are arguing above, the Kino Nosferatu is potentially more expensive than the MoC even if the latter has to be imported.

[captveg]

I love how everyone is so concerned about my collection, but I'm a big kid and can make my own decisions for my own reasons. I simply don't like to import if I don't have to, and I like to support releases in my own market so there is a greater chance of similar releases.

As for the booklet and commentary differences - I probably own 200+ commentaries and booklets that I've never bothered to listen to/read, so not the end of the world. Bonus content is nice but it's not as big of a deal to me.

[swo17]

As an Earthling, I've always considered Masters of Cinema to be serving my market.

[Gregory]

I love how everyone is so concerned about my collection, but I'm a big kid and can make my own decisions for my own reasons.

I'm not sure what made you think that anyone was concerned over which version you are going to buy or has failed to respect your freedom of choice. As I said, "I respectfully acknowledge that many want to pick up Kino releases rather than their MoC counterparts for various reasons" and as vsski said, "Of course everyone should do whatever they feel is best for them, I just don't understand the arguments being brought forward." I can't believe how defensive people get about their preference for buying a domestic release that offers less value for extra content. If you're not that interested in booklet essays or a Kalat commentary, that's fine with me, I'm not judging.
If there's any strident tone in what I'm saying it's because I think it's sort of a shame that Kino has gotten lazier (as I discussed a couple pages back with other examples) and can charge what they are for Nosferatu with fairly stingy/recycled contents, and yet overall their releases surely sell far more units than those of the folks at MoC, who have kept the quality bar high but are not always rewarded with strong sales. But I realize that many will keep buying the Kino counterparts, and I don't always opt to import the best possible release either.

[Kirkinson]

I'm sure there's a good handful of people like me who can't actually afford to buy movies most of the time (I don't think I've bought a single DVD or Blu-ray all year, in fact) and who are therefore grateful for the existence of potentially inferior domestic releases because libraries and video rental stores (the few of them that still exist) are still overwhelmingly less likely to import discs from other regions.

But if I actually had the spending money, I can't imagine buying the Kino over the MoC, especially if the latter was actually cheaper.

[captveg]

I'm not sure what made you think that anyone was concerned over which version you are going to buy or has failed to respect your freedom of choice. As I said, "I respectfully acknowledge that many want to pick up Kino releases rather than their MoC counterparts for various reasons" and as vsski said, "Of course everyone should do whatever they feel is best for them, I just don't understand the arguments being brought forward." I can't believe how defensive people get about their preference for buying a domestic release that offers less value for extra content. If you're not that interested in booklet essays or a Kalat commentary, that's fine with me, I'm not judging.
If there's any strident tone in what I'm saying it's because I think it's sort of a shame that Kino has gotten lazier (as I discussed a couple pages back with other examples) and can charge what they are for Nosferatu with fairly stingy/recycled contents, and yet overall their releases surely sell far more units than those of the folks at MoC, who have kept the quality bar high but are not always rewarded with strong sales. But I realize that many will keep buying the Kino counterparts, and I don't always opt to import the best possible release either.

I was cheekily using myself as an example of someone who understands the argument for importing but is choosing the Kino version. I guess one of these would have helped underscore my playful tone.

[domino harvey]

Anyone who knowingly decides against a Kalat commentary cannot be trusted

[FrauBlucher]

MoC's releases are the reason I purchased a region free player. I will choose MoC releases over Kino every time they mirror titles. I never feel like I pay more for the MoCs than the Kinos. When I order from Amazon UK, the VAT is eliminated because I'm in the States and if I wait for the Eureka special offers I still make out good because of free-shipping.

[domino harvey]

Amazon listings for

Nosferatu (11/12/13)
Russian Ark (11/19/13)

Also Barbara and Shoot the Sun Down coming to Blu in November as well

[JonasEB]

Price isn't my main point, it's convenience. I'd add that if my multi-region player dies or a disc has a compatibility issue with that player, which can't be updated, the Region B discs are useless until I get a new multi-region player (off topic - this is why I personally like dual format releases.)

When I import, it tends to be films that are either unavailable in that format anywhere else, like Coeur Fidele, or they offer additional films, like the MOC Mizoguchis and the BFI Ozus (this is the only kind of "extra" that I consider significant enough to give my absolute preference to.) I have no problem with anyone voicing their preference for one package over the other, I just don't get this mentality of denigrating the other in the way vsski did, that it's unreasonable, unthinkable to get the Kino over the MOC. It's completely reasonable.

[vsski]

I just don't get this mentality of denigrating the other in the way vsski did, that it's unreasonable, unthinkable to get the Kino over the MOC. It's completely reasonable.

This is a repeat of their 2 disc DVD version. Who other than region A locked folks will buy this knowing that MoC is putting out their own version, which if it has the same extras as the DVD is vastly superior, not to speak of a probably better encode.

With "denigrating the other" I assume you mean my comments about the label rather than any individual posting here (see my original comment here again), as I think I made it quite clear in subsequent posts that everyone is free to choose what they consider best for themselves, I simply didn't and still don't understand the arguments brought forward, as the MOC is cheaper, arrives around the same time and has more extras. You don't like that, prefer to spend more money on getting less, or are concerned your region free player is giving up and therefore prefer the Kino release that is perfectly fine with me, I will be the last person to tell you what to do.
Although I continue to be surprised by your reaction and that of others here and the arguments brought forward in favor of what is a clearly an overall inferior release, based on price alone even if you don't watch extras or read booklets.

My original comment was, however, clearly intended to take Kino to task over a release pattern of recent that I have an issue with. Going all the way back to the Metropolis release. MoC was forced to region lock their release due to Kino and Kino then released theirs with less extras region free. Kino's Blue Angel has less extras than even their own old DVD did, let alone the MoC version. The early Kubrick set from MoC had all of the early shorts, the Kino did not - according to what you value as extras, this should clearly favor the MoC even in your book - and now Nosferatu.

That's 4 high profile releases where Kino could have done better and I simply feel that the label has become complacent and I vote with my wallet, as ultimately this is the only way labels will listen (not that I think they care about me personally one single bit). You call that denigrating, well, so be it.

But for the record, I own lots of Kino releases going all the way back to the beginning of the DVD era and for a while in the early days of BD thought Kino was really making inroads with excellent releases. Now, however, I'm disappointed to see what they are doing and I'm calling this out and will continue to do so.

[captveg]

IIRC, the region coding issue on Metropolis was an authoring error that was rectified upon discovery, while many of the other issues are straightforward licensing/availability issues. I can see why some would purchase a more feature laden import, but pointing the finger at Kino and saying they didn't put forth effort when they may not have been able to secure the license for other reasons is a bit unfair, IMO.

[Gregory]

Licensing issues may be at issue in a few instances of Kino leaving out special features or versions of films that in many cases they'd included on the DVD releases pre–Lorber merger, but in most cases, no way. The deck is not somehow stacked against Kino so badly that they should so often get beaten by Region B counterparts. They have simply started a fairly consistent track record of lazily dropping things and seldom creating new supplements for relatively recent releases. What would be stopping them from doing that? Again the only reason they can set the SRP for that Nosferatu at $40 (and unlike Criterion, with few options to get a hefty discount like 50% off) is because as far as most people are concerned, by a wide margin, there is no competition for the Kino release (and because demand for Nosfeatu on Blu-ray is strong enough to begin with).

[captveg]

Many of the large studios now refuse to create new supplements for catalog titles because they see it as a complete waste of resources, so I imagine that is the reason for Kino to not invest in these too often. Not saying it's preferable by any means, but it's a legitimate business reason to avoid that expense.

As for Kino cornering the US market on titles like Nosferatu - isn't the same true for any US release of a non-public domain title?

[vsski]

I don't understand why people are willing to cut Kino so much slack. Yes, in some cases licensing plays a role (it may have on the Kubrick set), but simply saying hey it's expensive to create supplements and few people are interested and there are enough people who buy it regardless, is a business decision that shouldn't be encouraged.

MoC is a much smaller label, with less resources and a smaller market and yet they do go the extra mile to put a Kalat commentary on their discs and license other extras not to mention the work being put into the booklets - and to top it, they sell it cheaper - in my book that is what should be rewarded.

[Gregory]

Many of the large studios now refuse to create new supplements for catalog titles because they see it as a complete waste of resources, so I imagine that is the reason for Kino to not invest in these too often. Not saying it's preferable by any means, but it's a legitimate business reason to avoid that expense.

Supplements for catalog titles are never a complete waste of resources (apart from the fluff featurettes that some of the majors crank out) because a lot of people will decide whether or not to purchase based on that extra content (that's what makes it a premium release). And Kino certainly does better than Olive, Twillight Time, or others I could name.
And yes, there are obvious advantages to creating half-assed or middle-of-the-road releases when you know that your customer base will shell out anyway. There are "legitimate" business reasons behind a lot of the undesireable things companies do, or don't do. The best publications tend to come from companies that don't make their decisions with an eye only to maximizing short-term profits.

As for Kino cornering the US market on titles like Nosferatu - isn't the same true for any US release of a non-public domain title?

I wasn't talking about Kino having the U.S. market; I meant that the vast majority are not region free, and do not even pay attention to region-free releases coming out overseas, so as far as they're concerned a Kino release has no competition.

[swo17]

They have simply started a fairly consistent track record of lazily dropping things and seldom creating new supplements for relatively recent releases.

Or even including HoH English subtitles.

[captveg]

I don't understand why people are willing to cut Kino so much slack

I cut every US distributor slack if they actual release the films in quality versions. Everything else - bonus content, packaging - is merely extra frills. We're now living in a country where the majority of the population now relies upon streaming services to be able to see any movie they want. Kino is competing against that far more than they are competing against any non-US release.

[hearthesilence]

I don't understand why people are willing to cut Kino so much slack

I cut every US distributor slack if they actual release the films in quality versions. Everything else - bonus content, packaging - is merely extra frills. We're now living in a country where the majority of the population now relies upon streaming services to be able to see any movie they want. Kino is competing against that far more than they are competing against any non-US release.

True. I don't like it but that's where things are and it's not heading back in the other direction. The money everyone invests in streaming and physical media is going to be adjusted accordingly, you can't really fight it. If you do, well, look around at other parts of the media business, whether it's publishing/bookstores, music, etc.