Technical Issues and Questions

[PillowRock]

I can't believe this would be true.

Why not?

Have a read about scaling algorithms to see what's required to "add extra pixels".

Well, the simplest way to do it (especially when the ratio between the two resolutions is an integer) is just to replicate the pixels. Assuming the 1-to-1 and higher resolution screens are the same physical size, those two images should look identical if everything else is the same. If the people engineering the upscaling can't do any better than that, then they shouldn't bother.

Bi-linear interpolation does round off edges and make things look a bit fuzzy. Then again, 25 years ago that was already "the dumb way" to resample digital image data. I can't believe that anybody is doing that in any of these systems today.

What I have seen in a number of DVD-to-HD upsamplers (and I would expect to se the same thing in HD-to-4K) is exactly the opposite of making it "softer". They tend to build in some edge enhancement to make things look sharper, even if it's less accurate. Sometimes it's pretty obvious.

The thing with home entertainment screens is that the higher res screen is often physically larger than the lower res screen. Just as with optical photographic enlargements, the large image looks fuzzier simply because the extra size allows you to see the limits of the information that is there better than you can when the image is smaller.

[David M.]

Well, the simplest way to do it (especially when the ratio between the two resolutions is an integer) is just to replicate the pixels. Assuming the 1-to-1 and higher resolution screens are the same physical size, those two images should look identical if everything else is the same.

Panasonic TVs and some Sony projectors have a pixel doubling mode, yes. Unless you're sitting far from the screen, the aliasing isn't pleasant, but it's nice to have the option.

What I have seen in a number of DVD-to-HD upsamplers (and I would expect to se the same thing in HD-to-4K) is exactly the opposite of making it "softer". They tend to build in some edge enhancement to make things look sharper, even if it's less accurate. Sometimes it's pretty obvious.

Sony's earlier 4K projectors also did pack in a whole load of "detail enhancement" that you couldn't turn off if you were using the edge-adaptive scaling mode, but they changed it for the later models. We always ask the manufacturers to have a defeat for edge enhancement.

The thing with home entertainment screens is that the higher res screen is often physically larger than the lower res screen. Just as with optical photographic enlargements, the large image looks fuzzier simply because the extra size allows you to see the limits of the information that is there better than you can when the image is smaller.

Yes, although I'm not talking about that in this case. I'm talking about two screens of the same or similar size. The 1:1 mapped one will always look cleaner owed to the lack of scaling.

[Perkins Cobb]

Anyone have any opinions on this unit, or other Sony region-free Blu-ray players? My R1 player has always been a Sony and I like the image quality quite a bit more than the LG region-free Blu-ray I bought a couple of years ago.

[jindianajonz]

Anyone have any opinions on this unit, or other Sony region-free Blu-ray players? My R1 player has always been a Sony and I like the image quality quite a bit more than the LG region-free Blu-ray I bought a couple of years ago.

I started talking about that same unit (from the same website) over here, and Shaky asked about the it a while later. TL;DR- It's worked great for me.

[Perkins Cobb]

Thanks -- sorry, I put that question in the wrong thread.

[Zot!]

Well, the simplest way to do it (especially when the ratio between the two resolutions is an integer) is just to replicate the pixels. Assuming the 1-to-1 and higher resolution screens are the same physical size, those two images should look identical if everything else is the same.

Panasonic TVs and some Sony projectors have a pixel doubling mode, yes. Unless you're sitting far from the screen, the aliasing isn't pleasant, but it's nice to have the option.

What I have seen in a number of DVD-to-HD upsamplers (and I would expect to se the same thing in HD-to-4K) is exactly the opposite of making it "softer". They tend to build in some edge enhancement to make things look sharper, even if it's less accurate. Sometimes it's pretty obvious.

Sony's earlier 4K projectors also did pack in a whole load of "detail enhancement" that you couldn't turn off if you were using the edge-adaptive scaling mode, but they changed it for the later models. We always ask the manufacturers to have a defeat for edge enhancement.

The thing with home entertainment screens is that the higher res screen is often physically larger than the lower res screen. Just as with optical photographic enlargements, the large image looks fuzzier simply because the extra size allows you to see the limits of the information that is there better than you can when the image is smaller.

Yes, although I'm not talking about that in this case. I'm talking about two screens of the same or similar size. The 1:1 mapped one will always look cleaner owed to the lack of scaling.

I'll fully admit that I'm speaking from a place of relative ingorance here David, but not only is it standard on all playback equipment and televisions to provide upscaling, but respected home video companies like Criterion routinely upscale SD material. I can respect if you are an informed contrarian, but it doesn't seem to match with common practice. Also, how does pixel doubling create more aliasing than was already present? The processing introduces additional distortion?

[David M.]

I'll fully admit that I'm speaking from a place of relative ingorance here David, but not only is it standard on all playback equipment and televisions to provide upscaling

It's standard practice because it's necessary for fixed-pixel devices. To show lower resolution without scaling on a higher resolution screen, the non-used pixels would be black. And nobody wants to watch a tiny image (in the case of SD, a tiny squashed image) sitting in the middle of a big screen.

respected home video companies like Criterion routinely upscale SD material. I can respect if you are an informed contrarian, but it doesn't seem to match with common practice.

Yes, I do the same on all my discs. That's a separate issue; it just results in a cleaner experience for the user (no having to wait through annoying 'blackouts' while the TV resyncs).

Scaling old SD interviews to HD is not really a big deal since the source material is rarely pristine. In fact, I always do it (and agree with anyone else who does) because it puts you in control of the quality of the scaling rather than leaving it down to the BD player or TV.

What I'm talking about is hardware - 1920x1080 is always best seen on a 1920x1080 display.

[Zot!]

Do you maintain a seperate set-up for native SD viewing?

[David M.]

No, for the same reasons as above - most SD content is not very good; scaling artefacts or perceived softness caused by interpolation aren't worth worrying about with it. In fact, scaling to HD and doing gentle high frequency lift (AFTER the scaling!) can actually look better. There's also the issue of low resolution, large size displays having gigantic pixels. Watching SD content scaled isn't something that worries me.

Whereas with BD, we have a lot of really, really good 1080p content that's only harmed by scaling. 1080p displays are also in a pretty nice sweet spot as far as not having a visible pixel structure goes. Admittedly, part of the reason why 1080p ends up looking soft on the current 2160p displays is how "silky" the panel looks; there's no pixel structure to give the perception of extra sharpness.

Have a look at an unfiltered BD that has a ton of high frequency detail (I'd suggest Arrow's late 2013 release of Cinema Paradiso, but I'm biased there) on a 1080p display (in 1:1 mode) and on a 2160p display side by side as we do for manufacturers to demonstrate this kind of stuff.

[MichaelB]

(I'd suggest Arrow's late 2013 release of Cinema Paradiso, but I'm biased there)

But also, by definition, you know it backwards!

[Zot!]

Alright, fair enough, so your concern isn't so much scaling, as it is scaling HD content, while acknowledging that scaling SD content is advantageous in most circumstances. That fits better with my understanding. Thanks!

[tenia]

it just results in a cleaner experience for the user (no having to wait through annoying 'blackouts' while the TV resyncs).

I remember Nick Wrigley being in favour of scaling SD extras to HD also for this purpose.

[fdm]

I remember Nick Wrigley being in favour of scaling SD extras to HD also for this purpose.

A good thing when it's done similar to or better than a decent player could do it, but annoying when it's mucked up.

[manicsounds]

Is anyone else having problems accessing the Caps-A-Holic website? Whenever I try to access it from my computer, it says this:



Doesn't matter if it's the main page, a specific comparison page, the same 404 page appears. I tried other browsers, clearing my internet history, cache, cookies, but no access. I tried from my iphone via wifi at home, and I can't access it either.

But strangely, When I tried with my iphone without wifi, it was fine, I was able to see everything. This is the only website I've had trouble with, anyone know why this is happening?

[EddieLarkin]

I don't, but can confirm it is working as normal for me.

[Zot!]

I remember Nick Wrigley being in favour of scaling SD extras to HD also for this purpose.

A good thing when it's done similar to or better than a decent player could do it, but annoying when it's mucked up.

Worst of all is when criterion lowers the bit-rate of the feature to make the upscaled extras fit.

[David M.]

That's not necessary, at least not with the best encoder. Upscaled SD content shouldn't need much more space than actual SD; since upscaling don't create high frequency data (besides ringing, depending on the algorithm used). Not all encoders can keep a consistent looking image at 4-5mbps though.

[tenia]

Worst of all is when criterion lowers the bit-rate of the feature to make the upscaled extras fit.

From what I've seen on their latest releases, they try not to give as much disc space to the upscaled extras than they did in the past, in an attempt (I assume) to give back higher AVB to the main feature, which is good. For instance, Ace In The Hole retains a 33 Mbps AVB despite being 111 min + 2h of video extras, which is perfect. Overlord also retains a 35 Mbps AVB, but the movie is shorter and I think the extras too, so it's easier to achieve.

Now, if they could just optimise more the native HD extras like David M. does for Arrow, because except for a few titles (Persona, for instance), most of their native HD extras still take too much from the main feature dedicated space (Il Sorpasso, Breaking The Waves, The Great Beauty). On the other end, it's not like it's problematic compression wise, so that's fine. And they're not going as low as they went for Fanny & Alexander or Shoah.

[manicsounds]

Is anyone else having problems accessing the Caps-A-Holic website? Whenever I try to access it from my computer, it says this:



Doesn't matter if it's the main page, a specific comparison page, the same 404 page appears. I tried other browsers, clearing my internet history, cache, cookies, but no access. I tried from my iphone via wifi at home, and I can't access it either.

But strangely, When I tried with my iphone without wifi, it was fine, I was able to see everything. This is the only website I've had trouble with, anyone know why this is happening?

Looks like it's been fixed. I don't know how, I didn't do anything on my part, but the site is visible for the first time in a week. A mystery...

[repeat]

Ok, I'm stumped: could anyone recommend a working solution for viewing Blu-ray discs with fansubs on a Mac (that does not involve ripping the discs to the hard drive)? I have the Macgo Blu-ray Player, which plays all my BD's just fine, but refuses to show the fansubs with them. The subtitle files themselves work perfectly if I load them while watching a DVD or a video file, but no output when playing a BD. Is there something I don't get here, or is there maybe another program that can do this?

[Cash Flagg]

I have the Panasonic BDT-220, and was examining the settings for the first time. I noticed that 'Super Resolution' was set to 1, while 'Chroma Process' was on Normal, and 'Detail Clarity' was at zero. Are those the correct settings, or should I change them/turn them off entirely (where possible)? I'm assuming Picture Mode should be changed from User to Cinema? Are there any other settings/options I should be adjusting? Thanks.

[David M.]

You have it set up correctly. Super Resolution adds some high frequency sharpening to SD sources after scaling to HD. I have no issue with that.

Detail Clarity is EE for everything, SD+HD. I don't see any need for this in HD. So leave it off.

Chroma Process can be Normal or Advanced. It's subtle and gets chroma resolution a little closer to that of the master.

Use Picture Mode: user with all the options off (0).

[fdm]

Ok, I'm stumped: could anyone recommend a working solution for viewing Blu-ray discs with fansubs on a Mac (that does not involve ripping the discs to the hard drive)? I have the Macgo Blu-ray Player, which plays all my BD's just fine, but refuses to show the fansubs with them. The subtitle files themselves work perfectly if I load them while watching a DVD or a video file, but no output when playing a BD. Is there something I don't get here, or is there maybe another program that can do this?

Can't really help, I've only had limited "success" (for lack of a better word) with getting fansubs to work with DVDs, but may have been a region thing (the first few subs sort of showed up, but none of the rest did; think this was both with vlc and with Macgo Blu-ray Player). Apparently you had better luck with that than I did.

(I finally did get the very same fansubs to work with a couple region 2 dvds after creating mkvs of the movies from them -- was able to get them to play well on the Mac (with vlc), and also on Oppo blu-ray player (though it seemed not quite so well as on the Mac unless I just let it play). I suspect maybe similar can be done with blu-ray, but I haven't tried, not sure whether my configuration is up to it or not... though I may very well give it a try before too long.)

[repeat]

Well, the last time I tried it, VLC was pretty frustrating for DVD's - subs only work sporadically, drop out, etc. and what's worse it couldn't handle the audio track when slowing down the playback rate on PAL discs. I switched to MPlayer OSX and both problems disappeared; the only small irritations being that it has no "play disc" option (you have to load the folder or track manually), and that the speed control goes in 3% increments so with PAL discs you have to twiddle back and forth for a while to get the playback speed to 96%.

Disc regions as such don't have anything to do with subs, but if you're trying to watch a NTSC disc with PAL subs or the other way around (the difference being the frame rate, so that the timecodes will be out of sync with the video), you will need a subtitle editor that can perform a framerate-based timecode shift on the subtitle file. I'm getting by with Subs Factory's "shift" function, but there's probably a program out there that will do this more easily.

The really frustrating thing is that when I first tried out the MacGo player, before registering it, I managed to get it to display fansubs on a German Blu-ray. After registering and updating to the current version I've had no luck with it at all. It might be that they've changed the code in some way that has introduced this disfunctionality. It's a shame as it's otherwise a good program (and region free!), but I have a handful of international discs that I can't watch without fansubs which I would never have bought had I not been under the impression that the MacGo can handle this.

[EddieLarkin]

On the subject of subtitles, does anyone know of a program that will take a sub file with standard def text and reconform it into high def? The one I'm using at the moment doesn't appear to have such a feature.