Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson, 2017)

[Feiereisel]

I'm tired too, McCrutchy, so I will be brief. (Or at least as brief as I can be.)

An argument, I guess?

I don't disagree with everything in your critique, but I do think it would benefit from some perspective (i.e. less focus on Disney's marketing plans) and closer reading of the events of The Last Jedi, especially when viewed in conjunction with The Force Awakens.

We have seen versions of these plot beats before, but now that we're two films into the new trilogy and perhaps have a better sense of its shape, it's easier to view the recasting and remixing of familiar plot beats as a motif that allows the filmmakers to explore the theme of the burden of destiny and dig into the nature of the Force. This is why I'm so curious to see where the next film goes, even though--as has been mentioned--it's possible it may not resolve into anything particularly novel or substantial. I'm assuming the broad narrative arc for this set of films was sketched out all at once, and the filmmakers are working toward a predetermined endpoint.

Yes, the filmmakers have chosen to make the middle trilogy's main characters central to this new one rather than delivering something wholly new. Despite the imperfect results, it's a sensible approach, and it's hard to argue that a series of films that did not directly connect with the middle trilogy would have been more enjoyable. It's even more difficult, if not impossible, to think that any new films would not have been measured against the previous six. So the filmmakers have decided to make that point of comparison a central element of the new trilogy's plot, which is as reasonable creative decision as any. The rest of it flows from there.

At a certain point, it becomes necessary to reckon with the films as they are rather than what you as a viewer want them to be. And even then, it's possible--and okay--to wind up with the same negative reaction.

[Apperson]

On the subject of 'magical semen' theory

It seems entirely obvious to me that one of the main thesis's of the film is the move away from a conflict built around one family line and giving it back to the entire galaxy.

Luke teaches Rey about the universality of the force compared to its elusive qualities in the prequels and even the OT.

Kylo Ren's speech to Rey about here being nothing, but to to him can strike one as petulant, but to me it also says that Kylo is trying to tell Rey that her lineage would make her a nobody in previous stories within this universe and that plainly isn't true (The flaw of course being his violent and dismissive nature).

And that boy at the end clearly brings the point home that the new blood will be 'nobodies' inspired by those outside of a noble bloodline.

We can talk about how Disney is milking nostalgia for these characters, and maybe everything I wrote above will be walked back by noted crowdpleaser J.J Abrams, but this is obviously the new mode of Star Wars as Rian Johnson has written it.

[tenia]

About the OT vs the new trilogy (or, in my case, more specifically Ep 8) : I never felt as so obvious the tricks used in the OT. Sure, its internal coherence has always been discutable, it has some easy stuff thrown in by the team behind them, etc.
But it never felt as easy, as superficial, etc, than this last movie.

I never really watched the Eps 4 to 6 (hell, even the Eps 1 to 3) and felt "wow, that's just such a poor narrative structure", or "that's really poorly included here". It's just a question of "intensity".
I'm not myself a "hardcore" fan of SW or whatever, though yeah, I like a lot the OT (just like I like a lot, say, the 1st Indiana Jones movie, Die Hard or Back to the Future). But again, as a I explained before, even outside of its inclusion within the SW canon, The Last Jedi really felt like a superficial movie to me at movie level, not SW movie level.
So when on top of this, it feels like a re-hash that won't admit it (and actually keep being claimed otherwise), it's beginning to be a lot to swallow.

As for Rey's origins, I'm with Brian C here and wouldn't be surprised if what we're told here actually turns out to be a lie.

[McCrutchy]

The likely problem with Episode IX, especially in view of The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, is that Abrams has to decide how to make a film that reconciles both previous installments

Spoiler

largely without the benefit of the original trilogy characters, and is likely open-ended enough to allow for future films. On top of that, Disney has seen reaction to films like the DCEU and MCU, which is probably a good indication that they won't allow the series to go dark, which they certainly haven't thus far. That means you can probably forget about Rey and/or Finn dying, or going over to the Dark Side. Kylo's fate is up in the air, but whether he dies, or converts back and lives, both of those scenarios are, in my opinion, boring as hell. After that, I really don't know what, if anything, the new film can accomplish, because so few of the other characters have really had any character development. Is Finn going to become a Jedi? Seems unlikely now, since Johnson has pretty much diluted the idea of Jedi being rare and special with the end of The Last Jedi. All that's left for Finn to do, is to pick a girl, and call it a day. As for Poe, it seems all he can do is become a Resistance leader, like Leia and Holdo. And once Rey decides she really is a Jedi, and (probably) that her lineage "doesn't matter" (which is a convenient loophole around the importance of bloodlines), all that's left for her to do is defeat Kylo--because let's face it, after the events of The Last Jedi, Kylo Ren is now the First Order--and then be covered in glory, as the bad guys retreat. That scenario is also really boring, and while having Carrie Fisher around may have allowed for some touching mother/son dynamics, the whole thing feels just as stale as what The Last Jedi is.

I think what a lot of people would have wanted going into this trilogy is to have Luke, Han and Leia in all three films, with all three, as well as Chewie, 3PO and R2 going on the adventure in their own ways, and mentoring the new characters. I know that's what I hoped for going in, and all seemed okay until the last part of The Force Awakens, with Han being killed, and Luke being reduced to an actual cameo.

But okay, I thought, I can deal with no Han. Harrison Ford never liked the role that much, and so he probably didn't like the idea of doing another trilogy. Besides, he could come back in flashbacks, or as a Force Ghost, or whatever. Then Carrie Fisher died, so now, no more Princess Leia. Okay, we still have Luke Skywalker. But then, when I finally saw The Last Jedi, a movie where Luke doesn't even leave his retirement island, and often behaves like an old crackpot before finally killing himself via virtual exertion (or however you want to describe it), I knew that the creators of the new trilogy were and are not interested in giving anything but lip service and a hasty exit to these characters. And sure, no one had any control over Carrie Fisher's death, and Disney/Lucasfilm were likely going to have her in Episode IX, but now that that isn't possible, the least that they could have done is given Luke the final film in the trilogy. Bring in Hamill for a quick reshoot, at least get Luke off the goddamn island, and possibly, meeting up with the new characters. Then, if you must, let Luke go out in a blaze of glory in Episode IX. As much as The Last Jedi has issues, its biggest problem, far and away, is its borderline disrespect of Luke Skywalker. If, especially in light of Fisher's death, Johnson had rectified that, I think I would have come away with a mixed reaction, but ready and willing to see Episode IX because of Luke's expanded role. Now? Well, because the Skywalker saga is essentially over, and I've never really warmed up to any of the new characters, I really just don't have any reason to go and see the film.

[tenia]

Of course it probably will be all the movie will advance, but don't worry, it'll still last 150 minutes.

[who is bobby dylan]

Spoiler

the magical semen front. Maybe I missed something, but the whole basis for believing that Rey's parents were nobodies was that Kylo said so, right? But how would he really know? I wouldn't rule out that we're being set up for a reveal of her true lineage in the next film. Hopefully she won't be revealed to be conceived by midichlorians again, at least.

On this single point. Kylo asks Rey if she knows who her parents are? She admits, before his elaboration, that she knows that they were nobodies. He supplies the specific details of why they abandoned her and their deaths, but it's clear that she knows they were nobodies and presumably must have known they were also junk traders. His information also ties into her vision in the cave, which basically tells her that her parents identities have nothing to do with who she is. In Theory this could be retconned in the next film, but it's hard to see how that would not be completely stupid on both a story telling and thematic level.

[movielocke]

Regarding what Kylo tells Rey:

Spoiler

i think there is both lies and truth. And also a “certain point of view “ element.

To Kylo, or the Jedi/samurai order, they were nobodies, remember Snokes loving little line about the Skywalker genetics, obviously the status quo is all about the magical semen of divine right.

But obviously they were not nobodies to Rey, so this is a certain point of view element, classic jedi deception.

Additionally, I think it is pretty clear that Kylo is lying to Rey about why they left. Because what he says is obviously a goad to make her angry, to make her vulnerable by playing on her worst thoughts about her parents, and also to try and persuade her to his side by being the “only one who understands”.

So I Think telling Rey that they sold her to buy alcohol is pretty obvious (and obviously unsuccessful) manipulation on his part, it’s a particularly cruel set of lies laced with enough truth (a family of subsistence junk traders) to hurt Rey the most while attempting to sever her from the things which might be her salvation (Luke’s relationship with Leia means he didn’t kill his father (ideally in ignorance of the implications of this vile dark side act) as the “light side” Jedi masters wanted him to do. Rey’s relationship and knowledge of her family will ultimately be crucial to her overcoming Kylo and the appeal of the dark side.

One thing that is impressive, I can’t tell if Kylo is going to have a redemptive Snape arc, or if he fully breaks bad in a way Vader never did, or if he even has a Gollum moment of inadvertently causing the ultimate success of his enemies because he’s Persuing his own selfish short term goal.

[Feiereisel]

Another thing I’ve been reckoning with when it comes to these new films is the way the story is being told as it compares to the previous trilogies. We’re arguavly in a new mode of storytelling for the franchise, which affects the way we view the films, which informs our opinions of them in a way I haven’t really been able to fully consider. Unlike the previous trilogies, we’re only seeing part of the full picture; we’re out on a limb in an unusual way for STAR WARS, which is a bit frustrating, even for someone who is enjoying the movies.

To dig into this a bit more: The original films have always existed as a “complete” work for me due to my age, but their structure is also fascinating—while the original trilogy tells a three part, beginning-middle-end story, it does so in an unusual way. A NEW HOPE tells a complete, standalone story, while EMPIRE and JEDI work as a two-part story that expands the scope of the narrative and resolves the good-vs-evil plot. Because the whole is so compelling and available, it’s easier to forgive or ignore its inconsistencies and digressions.

Because we know where it’s heased, we also understand how the prequel trilogy “fits” within the context of the franchise. Even though we still had to wait for the the individual films to come out, we still knew the ending.

But with these new films, we truly lack the broad scope, which is arguably what makes them feel somewhat insubstantial when viewed in isolation. At least for me, THE FORCE AWAKENS and THE LAST JEDI are most interesting when viewed together. What’s missing is a truly compelling “ring-to-Mordor” meta-narrative, but given how the prequels failed to make a real meal of Anakin’s transformation into Vader, I see why the creators here are content to let the viewers puzzle out the big picture.

I do think it’s there, and the two recent films have clear (if slight) individual plots, but how it all fits together may only be truly appreciable once the third film is released and viewed alongside the other two. As I’ve mention above, motifs are emerging and I do think the filmmakers are working with a clear theme in mind, which may help us account for things that seemed strange or unfinished in the context of a single film, especially a middle chapter.

So, um, yeah. I liked the movie and had fun watching it, even though it’s not perfect and I’m
trusting that it’s all headed somewhere.

[Brian C]

Regarding what Kylo tells Rey:

Spoiler

i think there is both lies and truth. And also a “certain point of view “ element.

To Kylo, or the Jedi/samurai order, they were nobodies, remember Snokes loving little line about the Skywalker genetics, obviously the status quo is all about the magical semen of divine right.

But obviously they were not nobodies to Rey, so this is a certain point of view element, classic jedi deception.

Additionally, I think it is pretty clear that Kylo is lying to Rey about why they left. Because what he says is obviously a goad to make her angry, to make her vulnerable by playing on her worst thoughts about her parents, and also to try and persuade her to his side by being the “only one who understands”.

So I Think telling Rey that they sold her to buy alcohol is pretty obvious (and obviously unsuccessful) manipulation on his part, it’s a particularly cruel set of lies laced with enough truth (a family of subsistence junk traders) to hurt Rey the most while attempting to sever her from the things which might be her salvation (Luke’s relationship with Leia means he didn’t kill his father (ideally in ignorance of the implications of this vile dark side act) as the “light side” Jedi masters wanted him to do. Rey’s relationship and knowledge of her family will ultimately be crucial to her overcoming Kylo and the appeal of the dark side.

One thing that is impressive, I can’t tell if Kylo is going to have a redemptive Snape arc, or if he fully breaks bad in a way Vader never did, or if he even has a Gollum moment of inadvertently causing the ultimate success of his enemies because he’s Persuing his own selfish short term goal.

This is all plausible but it still begs the question of why Kylo would know anything about her parents in the first place.

Thinking about it, it's not even clear to me that we're supposed to think he has specific information. He might have just been making an assumption based on what he knew of her background.

Spoiler

His information also ties into her vision in the cave, which basically tells her that her parents identities have nothing to do with who she is. In Theory this could be retconned in the next film, but it's hard to see how that would not be completely stupid on both a story telling and thematic level.

Spoiler

Maybe so, although there are a lot of ways to interpret the idea that "her parents identities have nothing to do with who she is." For example, that idea would be thematically consistent if she was descended from someone who turned to the dark side and fell into evil, which would also resonate both narratively and thematically with Luke's story from the original trilogy.

And speaking of the original trilogy, I don't think a revelation about Rey's bloodline would be any stupider than making Luke and Leia siblings in The Return of the Jedi after low-key (but still definitively) establishing Luke and Han as romantic rivals.

But with these new films, we truly lack the broad scope, which is arguably what makes them feel somewhat insubstantial when viewed in isolation.

I think this is a good point. Maybe I'm just getting old, but the serialization of cinema - where stories never really end, and every movie is a setup for a sequel or spinoff (or increasingly both) - is a trend that I'm really having a hard time getting on board with. Yet at the same time, I realize that it's part of the appeal to fans who want the movies to emulate the structure of comic book universes.

And that's fine as far as it goes, but as someone who never got into comics, I don't see much appeal. I checked out of the Marvel movies long ago, and out of the DC films after Batman v. Superman. While I'll probably see Episode IX just to close this particular loop, I strongly suspect that'll be it for me for Star Wars also.

[RIP Film]

I do think it’s there, and the two recent films have clear (if slight) individual plots, but how it all fits together may only be truly appreciable once the third film is released and viewed alongside the other two. As I’ve mention above, motifs are emerging and I do think the filmmakers are working with a clear theme in mind, which may help us account for things that seemed strange or unfinished in the context of a single film, especially a middle chapter.

I kind of think you're giving them too much credit, they're making this all up as they go along. Each movie sort of has their own chef doing their own thing, and you can see this not only in how some plot points from Force Awakens are ignored, but also thematically. Force Awakens is very conservative/nostalgic, and The Last Jedi's takeaway theme is the past gets in the way; it's also progressive to the point of taking huge liberties with the lore. How the third one will reconcile all of this both thematically and plotwise, will be very interesting, but my expectations aren't high.

[who is bobby dylan]

Spoiler

And speaking of the original trilogy, I don't think a revelation about Rey's bloodline would be any stupider than making Luke and Leia siblings in The Return of the Jedi after low-key (but still definitively) establishing Luke and Han as romantic rivals.

I agree that Leia being Luke's sister is a stupid twist. I think any further twist regarding Rey's parents would be equally if not more stupid. Obviously I don't know what they will do in the third film, but to me Kylo was telling the truth. They each had visions about each other, they each shared them truthfully because they each believed that the truth would turn the other one. Having it be a lie or partial lie on Kylo's part would be a stupid and unnecessary twist. I hope they don'y go in that direction.

[movielocke]

Spoiler

And speaking of the original trilogy, I don't think a revelation about Rey's bloodline would be any stupider than making Luke and Leia siblings in The Return of the Jedi after low-key (but still definitively) establishing Luke and Han as romantic rivals.

I agree that Leia being Luke's sister is a stupid twist. I think any further twist regarding Rey's parents would be equally if not more stupid. Obviously I don't know what they will do in the third film, but to me Kylo was telling the truth. They each had visions about each other, they each shared them truthfully because they each believed that the truth would turn the other one. Having it be a lie or partial lie on Kylo's part would be a stupid and unnecessary twist. I hope they don'y go in that direction.

if it is a lie it is not really a twist, lying goes part and parcel with the dark side. As theses things often go, it being a lie would reveal more about Kylo than about Rey.

[denti alligator]

My hunch is that

Spoiler

DJ

will be revealed as Rey's father, which would obviously work nicely, since it would affirm Kylo's statement, but also not just be

Spoiler

"nobody"

.

[movielocke]

Well I don’t know who that is, and I thought I knew Star wars reasonably well

[MoonlitKnight]

Another thing I’ve been reckoning with when it comes to these new films is the way the story is being told as it compares to the previous trilogies. We’re arguably in a new mode of storytelling for the franchise, which affects the way we view the films, which informs our opinions of them in a way I haven’t really been able to fully consider. Unlike the previous trilogies, we’re only seeing part of the full picture; we’re out on a limb in an unusual way for STAR WARS, which is a bit frustrating, even for someone who is enjoying the movies.

That's the thing: you don't suddenly change how a series is written/presented. This creates for problems with continuity within said series, as we're now seeing. It should all feel part of the same fabric. This new trilogy feels more like 'Bizarro Star Wars' ('Marvel in Space' I've heard someone else say). :-#

And speaking of the original trilogy, I don't think a revelation about Rey's bloodline would be any stupider than making Luke and Leia siblings in The Return of the Jedi after low-key (but still definitively) establishing Luke and Han as romantic rivals.

The sibling revelation was in fact the one element that Lucas retconned for the OT story. There was a separate sister character for whom Luke would end up searching, but as Lucas was wanting to wrap up this story in ROTJ, he simply dropped it and turned Leia into that sister.

I kind of think you're giving them too much credit, they're making this all up as they go along. Each movie sort of has their own chef doing their own thing, and you can see this not only in how some plot points from Force Awakens are ignored, but also thematically. Force Awakens is very conservative/nostalgic, and The Last Jedi's takeaway theme is the past gets in the way; it's also progressive to the point of taking huge liberties with the lore. How the third one will reconcile all of this both thematically and plotwise, will be very interesting, but my expectations aren't high.

So far Abrams has only said that it will tie all 3 trilogies together. We'll see how he manages to do that.

[movielocke]

Lucas made it all up as he went along and kept and discarded ideas fairly freely. This is why the originals are not very cohesive especially regarding the love triangle of the three main characters or the rules and world building. None of the original trilogy was planned out as a well defined story, that’s an after-the-fact rationalization/well-promoted-myth on Lucas’ part, a self serving story he has never been able to be consistent on, as he’s said whatever was convenient at the time (twelve, nine, six episodes have all been mentioned).

I don’t think we should think of anything Star Wars as holy writ because the day to day slog of writing and creating the originals was hardly some birth of Athena moment. To think they are all one unit means you just blur out all the very significant and messy differences they have from one to two to three.

the two new films feel very Star Wars to me, and both manage to be better than four of the first six films.

[swo17]

Well I don’t know who that is, and I thought I knew Star wars reasonably well

Spoiler

Del Toro's character

[movielocke]

Ahh interesting, reasonable too.

In some ways it reminds me of my sarcastic comment from before rogue one came out that the main character of that film was Rey’s mother because obviously there only being four-five women in the entire Star Wars galaxy up to that point in the chronology, clearly she had to be the one as no other women existed.

Really tight theory based connections like that may be modestly satisfying on a puzzle solving level but I like it more when things like that are not very matchy-matchy.

...

One more thing about how fluid and not cohesive Lucas’ “vision” was, it had to be repeatedly pointed out to him that he couldn’t call it revenge of the Jedi since the Jedi ethos he outlined in the previous film would not include revenge.

Eventually Lucas folded to functionally continuity and lore people. But he didn’t really care, I’m not even sure how much he noticed how vile the Jedi plan for Luke was. If he did, perhaps he was not quite so wrongheadedly worshipful of samurai as I’ve often thought he was.

[MoonlitKnight]

the two new films feel very Star Wars to me, and both manage to be better than four of the first six films.

And to me (and a few others I've encountered) it feels more as though they're trying to turn it into 'Marvel in Space.' That certainly explains the somewhat jokier tone, the more contemporary-sounding dialogue, the diminishing of the fantasy aspect, etc. To each his own.

[Brian C]

The Star Wars films have always had a pretty jokey tone, though. I don’t think this one was any more or less jokey.

[RIP Film]

Lucas made it all up as he went along and kept and discarded ideas fairly freely. This is why the originals are not very cohesive especially regarding the love triangle of the three main characters or the rules and world building. None of the original trilogy was planned out as a well defined story, that’s an after-the-fact rationalization/well-promoted-myth on Lucas’ part, a self serving story he has never been able to be consistent on, as he’s said whatever was convenient at the time (twelve, nine, six episodes have all been mentioned).
I don’t think we should think of anything Star Wars as holy writ because the day to day slog of writing and creating the originals was hardly some birth of Athena moment. To think they are all one unit means you just blur out all the very significant and messy differences they have from one to two to three.

I don't buy this argument. The originals were really swashbucklers that functioned on the level of parable, there was this Arthurian/fantasy vibe throughout that made such plot contrivances not stand out, they contributed to the core and emotional truth of the story which is what mattered. The newer ones have this modern self-reflective/reflexive tone that makes the similarities in plot looseness more jarring, the movies have become both more real and less real-- especially since they seem to be so self-aware, which is something both the older trilogies never had, to a fault.

I don't see SW as holy writ, far from it, they are like well done children's stories. My problems with this newer trilogy has more to do with the movie industry in total. They are green lighting these things before they even have a proper outline. Lucas had the pressure to do a sequel after the first movie was a hit, but no one said Disney had to start busting out one a year immediately after buying the property.

[Feiereisel]

The Star Wars films have always had a pretty jokey tone, though. I don’t think this one was any more or less jokey.

Absolutely. The tone and delivery of the jokes in THE LAST JEDI is a little more, I don’t know, energetic, but there is plenty of humor throughout the original trilogy, from the droids in particular.

I find the “Marvel-in-space” criticism to be a bit cheeky...more of a feedback loop of shared creative (and corporate) influences. It could be argued that Marvel’s (looser and looser) “trilogy” structuring and aggressive merchandising strategy draws from STAR WARS’ playbook. Indicting STAR WARS specifically to indict the industry at large is not wrong, but it certainly reduces THE LAST JEDI to a small piece of a much, much larger conversation, and in my opinion too-quickly overlooks some of the film’s more unique elements.

Also, just to clarify based on some of the quotes above, I don’t think Abrams and company have the series planned in scene-to-scene detail. I just suspect that there’s a clear idea of where it’s going and a broad theme of what it’s about, thematically speaking.

[swo17]

Poe's dressing down of Hux in the opening scene felt more like Spaceballs (or I don't know, The Office) than Star Wars humor.

[McCrutchy]

I don't know that its an issue of The Last Jedi being more humorous than the other films, but rather that some of the humor feels very out of place and inappropriate.

I mean, the now infamous

Spoiler

milking scene,

and the way it is shot and edited, the scene is clearly being played for laughs, when in the original films, something like that would have only been mildly amusing and viewed more as odd, instead of hilarious. For example, in Return of the Jedi, Jabba the Hutt isn't played for laughs, he's just an odd alien villain. The little sidekick thing he had was used for humor once or twice, but Jabba was just gross and lecherous. However, I feel like if Jabba showed up in the new trilogy, the filmmakers wouldn't be able to resist playing him for laughs.

And then there is the humor in The Last Jedi that is straight out of Spaceballs, like the excruciatingly bad

Spoiler

Hux/Poe scene, which is especially bad because it happens so early on in the film. And the ironing scene, while brief, is just odd and out of place. And as for Rey asking Kylo to put a shirt on during one of their force connections, that again took me out of the film, and undercut the seriousness of the rest of the scene.

So, it isn't so much that the other films had less humor, it's just that they were written better in regards to humor.

[Rayon Vert]

The Star Wars films have always had a pretty jokey tone, though.

Not so much in the prequels, though, which was a source of criticism for those films.