Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Rian Johnson, 2017)

[Keleg]

Annie Hall was the 10th highest grossing film of 1977. It was extremely popular, and has been for years since.

Not compared to Smokey and the Bandit that same year (and most interestingly, both cost $4 million--but the S and the B made far more money--translation: it was more popular with audiences than Annie Hall).

Now if Johnson had said he admires Needham's action comedy, maybe it would make a little more sense in terms of a genre relationship. Just replace the cars with spaceships, Sally Field with Princess Leia, and Jackie Gleason with Darth Vader.

[Mr Sausage]

Annie Hall is only popular among critics not mass audiences

Um, what?

I don't even know what to say to that.

And Annie Hall is the polar opposite of a Star Wars.

In that, what, it's a comedy? Well, shit, I guess sci-fi directors hate to laugh.

Usually when a director is hired for something the idea is that they are picked because the material has some relevance to them. In this case and the case of the Transformers writers, it really makes no sense to hire people who express their number 1 love for a completely different genre. In the case of Transformers it showed with the grandfather glasses gag, that sort of treasure quest would have been considered too goofy even for Ed Wood.

Wait...wait...so you think studios should hire directors based on what they say their favourite film is in an unrelated interview?

Even more to the point, why would your favourite film reflect your own talents? Loving Tarkovsky doesn't mean you're good at slow philosophical movies or not good at blowing shit up. This is such a silly point.

Also, you remember when Johnson was quoted above saying Star Wars holds a special place in his life, and rather than deal with that you chose to call him a liar?

There's this great interview with Michael Bay where he watches and comments on a movie he loves, West Side Story. Bay has this to say:

''I've got to tell you, I have so many different tastes in movies. But people try to pigeonhole you. They say, 'No, he just does action.'

The interview goes on to relate:

Besides, he said, musicals illustrate what it is that first drew him to filmmaking. And the kind of musicals made in 1961 -- when Robert Wise and the legendary choreographer Jerome Robbins directed ''West Side Story'' -- have more in common with the blockbuster action movies of today than many filmgoers realize.

The movies you love don't determine the genre that you personally make movies in, though they might inform some of the sensibility that you bring to that genre. Or vice versa: the kind of films you make, or want to make, might inform the things you notice and find important in unrelated movies.

[domino harvey]

Annie Hall was the 10th highest grossing film of 1977. It was extremely popular, and has been for years since.

Not compared to Smokey and the Bandit that same year (and most interestingly, both cost $4 million--but the S and the B made far more money--translation: it was more popular with audiences than Annie Hall).

Like 90% sure you're just fucking with us now. Considering Smokey and the Bandit was the second-highest grossing film of 1977, yes, you are correct that Annie Hall made less money. But just like directors are allowed to like more than one film, so too are audiences, and a demonstrably large number also liked Annie Hall, to the tune of it also being one of the highest grossing films of the year

[cdnchris]

If the only movie he liked was Annie Hall I would say you kinda make sense (though it still doesn't mean he doesnt understand the genre), but I'm pretty sure he is also incredibly fond of other films, genre and sci-fi included (as his Looper would allude to) so i'm not really sure what your point is exactly.

Also, randomly, there is an interview with Ingmar Bergman on the Persona release (I think it's there anyways) where Bergman states he would rather watch a Bond movie over something like his work, yet he kept making what he did.

[Mr Sausage]

There's also the story of Tarkovsky's trip to America, where the film he was most excited to see was the violent grindhouse film The Exterminator.

[The Narrator Returns]

I hope Keleg was similarly outraged when Stanley Kubrick got to make Eyes Wide Shut because one of his favorite movies was White Men Can't Jump.

[domino harvey]

It's a shame Kubrick wasn't allowed to film his original ending, with Nicole Kidman working through her marital discord by going on Jeopardy

[Shrew]

Or Terence Malick really loving Zoolander.

Anyway, given that Annie Hall is the go-to example of experimental filmmaking, and "non-traditional" storytelling means male characters fail (I never knew Arthurian legend, Greek tragedy, and Shakespeare were all so non-traditional), we're either being trolled or in the presence of a true believer.

[Keleg]

I hope Keleg was similarly outraged when Stanley Kubrick

Well now that you mention Kubrick, I mean, 2001 didnt make it's money back for ten years and yet he was given any and all money he wanted to make movies. He was even able to get a film pulled out of theaters after a week.
I use it as an example to show that despite the claims that studios only care about profit, they will make decisions that have nothing to do with profit.
Allen is just the most notable example of a director who gets money when he wants, has never needed to raise funding ever, doesn't even need to market himself at the Oscars etc.

But Johnson's mention of Annie Hall just reminded me of the interview with the director of Jesus of Montreal saying Jaws was the most perfect movie he had seen or the Transformers writers saying their dream was to make films in the style of Waiting for Godot.
It sounded like pretentious remarks, but in the case of Johnson and Orci and Kurtzman I suspect they were sincere.

[Keleg]

Anyway, given that Annie Hall is the go-to example of experimental filmmaking, and "non-traditional" storytelling means male characters fail (I never knew Arthurian legend, Greek tragedy, and Shakespeare were all so non-traditional),

The difference between "male failure" in Greek tragedy or Shakespeare or works like Frankenstein and Moby Dick is that there is usually a lesson or redemption element (i.e. Ishmail lives to tell the tale and Walton heeds the story of Frankenstein and Horatio carries on after Hamlet) but with a lot of studio film from say the 50s onward, that redemption/lesson isn't always there or rarely appears.
Beneath the Planet of the Apes ends with the world exploding.

But it is a case by case situation.
So Luke succeeds in Star Wars with the help of magic and a shot from a friend, and Shia Labeuf succeeds in the Transformers despite lacking the physical prowess of an athlete. He singlehandedly jumps on the evil robot and defeats it.

Actually Shia's character in Transformers is something like a Woody Allen protagonist so maybe Johnson's declared affection for one of his films makes a lot of sense for the future of populist genre narratives.

[MichaelB]

There's also the story of Tarkovsky's trip to America, where the film he was most excited to see was the violent grindhouse film The Exterminator.

It was a trip to London, and his desire to see the film had nothing to do with him being a closet James Glickenhaus fan - he just wanted to see the most controversial film currently playing out of curiosity as to what would be considered “controversial” in the West. (Did he ever cross the Atlantic at all?)

Bernardo Bertolucci, on the other hand, really was an absolutely rabid and unashamed fan of Speed.

[domino harvey]

Just searched Keleg's post history and discovered his only other posts were in the thread for Rituals. Sorry but he's clearly only qualified to speak about horror movies and not Star Wars, please disregard all of his other posts

[Brian C]

Something tells me he won’t be happy when he finds the Jordan Peterson thread.

[Keleg]

Haha yes I forgot about this forum until I remembered the Rituals discussion from way back and wanted to check for responses.

I just saw the SW discussion so left my opinion before I vanished for another year. I wasn't expecting to get into a debate about Annie Hall which is not a film I have any fondness for (yes I have seen it but as romantic comedies go I prefer Sons of the Desert).
I should have checked around the forum more closely-seems to be much more into avant garde but maybe there is some affection for Mario Bava or Umberto Lenzi in the ranks.



Anyhoo to bring it back to Lucas for closure (at least from me since talking about Star Wars and modern Disney is not very appealing), as someone pointed out, his background was experimental and quite different from serial adventure he became famous for--but then, who said he was a wonderful genre director? I have never met anyone who thought he was. The prequels confirmed it.
I do think Lucas has a quirky imagination and his stewardship of film tech was important, but as a filmmaker, not a fan.
Even Indiana Jones, which was said to be a creation of him and Spielberg, is just a copy of Harry Steele from Secret of the Incas, but with a sexual misconduct issue and a whip added.

Anyway that's my two cents.

Enjoy your next viewing of Shadows and Fog everyone.

[DarkImbecile]

I use it as an example to show that despite the claims that studios only care about profit, they will make decisions that have nothing to do with profit.

Any convincing evidence you can present for this will be the first such evidence uncovered in the history of studio filmmaking.

[knives]

There's also the story of Tarkovsky's trip to America, where the film he was most excited to see was the violent grindhouse film The Exterminator.

It was a trip to London, and his desire to see the film had nothing to do with him being a closet James Glickenhaus fan - he just wanted to see the most controversial film currently playing out of curiosity as to what would be considered “controversial” in the West. (Did he ever cross the Atlantic at all?)

Quite famously where he saw a bunch of Brakhage films and responded oddly.
As to this silly conversation, really all you need to do is point out that Lucas was just off of American Graffiti, a far weirder departure than anything Johnson has made, and has stated as one of his favorite films A Clockwork Orange and in general has expressed a preference to, "small, experimental works."

[Zot!]

If the only movie he liked was Annie Hall I would say you kinda make sense (though it still doesn't mean he doesnt understand the genre), but I'm pretty sure he is also incredibly fond of other films, genre and sci-fi included (as his Looper would allude to) so i'm not really sure what your point is exactly.

Also, randomly, there is an interview with Ingmar Bergman on the Persona release (I think it's there anyways) where Bergman states he would rather watch a Bond movie over something like his work, yet he kept making what he did.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 90487.html

He even had a Blues Brothers T-shirt.

I think one of the excerpts from this doc had Nicolas Refn inventing some kind juvenile Bergman on Faro masturbation scenario whence he came upon Caligula among the tapes.

Also remember Tarkovsky being a big Terminator fan...had not heard previously about Exterminator.

[reaky]

Robert Bresson was crazy about For Your Eyes Only.

[solaris72]

Also remember Tarkovsky being a big Terminator fan...had not heard previously about Exterminator.

Exterminator is true, it's mentioned in his diaries. He also mentions seeing Lucio Fulci's Zombi 2 while in Italy ("Ghastly, repulsive trash") and an anime film while in Japan (also Ozu's Autumn Afternoon which he says he found very boring).

What's rather interesting and ambiguous is Tarkovsky's view of Star Wars...in Sculpting in Time he's very dismissive, calling it and Superman movies that have nothing to do with art, and throughout his writings he expresses no interest whatsoever in films like that, (in his Sight & Sound top 10 list he calls Seven Samurai the only adventure film with any real artistic value) however his son attests to the man's enjoyment of Star Wars:

I always asked him what kind of movies he was watching. I envied him for having seen Star Wars, for instance. I asked him how the film was and he would tell me the whole story, including every little detail. He basically allowed me to see the film in my imagination.

So Andrey Tarkovsky loved Star Wars?

Of course! He then showed me Akira Kurosawa’s The Hidden Fortress, which is, as we all know, the blueprint of Star Wars. In any case, the film we both fully agreed upon was Kurosawa’s Seven Samurai.

I suspect on some level there was a combination of political pressure and artistic pride that led him to avoid discussing what he enjoyed in western popular cinema. (I recall a similar revelation regarding Bresson, who claimed not to go to the movies but allegedly was a very regular and ritualistic moviegoer) Tarkovsky had nothing good to say about 2001 yet was evidently interested enough that he read the novel afterwards and was furious to find the Soviet censors had removed the ending. (This is also in his published diaries.)

[AidanKing]

It was a trip to London, and his desire to see the film had nothing to do with him being a closet James Glickenhaus fan - he just wanted to see the most controversial film currently playing out of curiosity as to what would be considered “controversial” in the West. (Did he ever cross the Atlantic at all?)

Tarkovsky attended the 1983 Telluride festival, which is where the meeting with Brakhage took place. Apparently, Richard Widmark was a bit annoyed.

[Luke M]

Star Wars’ Kelly Marie Tran has deleted all of her posts on Instagram after months of harassment

[Big Ben]

Star Wars’ Kelly Marie Tran has deleted all of her posts on Instagram after months of harassment

Totally normal fanbase.

It's remarkable to me that anyone would harass another human being for simply being in a movie. Daisy Ridley did the exact same thing to her Instagram account apparently.

[Murdoch]

I can't blame her. The most die-hard Star Wars fans are some of the most obnoxious people around.

[MongooseCmr]

I’ve been increasingly tired of the lasers and stormtroopers and deafening space engines in each new film, but the last two movies have really hammered home how fucking boring the rebellion stuff is. I never thought it was that important in the previous series, more a backdrop than a narrative, and every new scene meant to swell my heart over the rebellion instead makes me want to walk out of the theater.

Spoiler

I would have clapped when L3 died if someone else started it. JarJar was never that obnoxious.

I loved the weird force mysticism in TLJ and find all the scummy underbelly stuff in Solo endearing, but they’ve got to find a new story to tell beyond Rebels vs Empire. It’s more tedious than making every film related to the old ones. Why was it even shoehorned into Solo to start?

[swo17]

Star Wars’ Kelly Marie Tran has deleted all of her posts on Instagram after months of harassment

I'm glad Disney/ABC decided to do the right thing in response and cancel this series. Oh wait...