342-348 Six Moral Tales

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#276 Post by tenia » Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:03 am

I love how Gary first says "it appears to be from the same 2006 director-approved masters" only or then explain the color movies look like the more recent Potemkine masters.
Which is it ?

User avatar
djproject
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:41 pm
Location: Framingham, MA
Contact:

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#277 Post by djproject » Fri May 01, 2020 7:31 am

djproject wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:50 pm
I can imagine a future Blu-ray configuration will be three discs with two of the tales each. Most, if not all, of the supplements will be on the first disc given the short duration of the first two tales. There is also no reason why the book should not be a part of the package, unless they allow access for a digital copy.

Just my take on it given the precedent for these things. Of course what will be missing is the individual packages for each of the tales. But I'm sure there will be a clever design configuration for it.
I called it! :D

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#278 Post by tenia » Fri May 01, 2020 7:45 am

Actually, the extras split isn't following your (better) suggestion to have "Most, if not all, of the supplements will be on the first disc given the short duration of the first two tales.". Criterion simply put them with the movie they were sharing a DVD with in the DVD set originally.

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#279 Post by swo17 » Fri May 01, 2020 9:39 am

If you really wanted to impress us you'd've called the typo too

User avatar
djproject
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:41 pm
Location: Framingham, MA
Contact:

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#280 Post by djproject » Sun May 03, 2020 8:31 pm

tenia wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:45 am
Actually, the extras split isn't following your (better) suggestion to have "Most, if not all, of the supplements will be on the first disc given the short duration of the first two tales.". Criterion simply put them with the movie they were sharing a DVD with in the DVD set originally.
Also remember that the original DVDs were single layer and none of the films were longer than two hours.
swo17 wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:39 am
If you really wanted to impress us you'd've called the typo too
Meh. =]

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#281 Post by tenia » Mon May 04, 2020 4:15 am

djproject wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 8:31 pm
Also remember that the original DVDs were single layer
Actually, only Suzanne's Career was single-layer. Bakery Girl was 6.81 GB, Maud 7.68 GB, La collectionneuse 7.56 GB, Claire's Knee 7.41 GB and Love in the Afternoon 7.35 GB.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#282 Post by tenia » Sun May 10, 2020 1:13 pm

Chris, could you C+P the technical details about the restorations ? I'd like to check which lab did those. I already have the Potemkine and Arrow sets.

User avatar
cdnchris
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#283 Post by cdnchris » Sun May 10, 2020 9:35 pm

I used a text scanner on my phone, so I apologize for any gibberish:
ABOUT THE TRANSFERS
The Bakery Girl of of Monceau Monceau , Suzanne ' s Career , My Night of Moud ' s , la collectionneuse , Claire ' s
Knee , and and Love in in the Afternoon are presented in their original aspect ratio of 1 . 37:1 . On wides
creen televisions , black bars will appear on the left and right of the image to maintain the proper
screen format. The restoration of all six films was undertaken by Les Films du losange , with the support of of the the Centre Centre national du cinéma et de l ' image animée ( CNC ) .
THE BAKERY GIRL OF MONCEAU element : 16 mm original camera negative Scanner : ARRISCAN . Transfer resolution : 2K .
Sound element : 35 mm optical track . Picture - restoration facility : Éclair , Vanves , France . Sound
restoration facility : L . E . Diapason , Paris
SUZANNE ' S CAREER
Picture element : 16 mm original camera negative Scanner : ARRISCAN . Transfer resolution : 2K -
Sound element : 35 mm magnetic track . Picture restoration facility : Éclair , Vanves , France . Sound
restoration facility : L . E . Diapason , Paris
MY NIGHT AT MAUD ' S
Picture element : 35 mm interpositive Scanner : ARRISCAN . Transfer resolution : 3K . Sound el
ment : Optical soundtrack positive . Picture - restoration facility : Lumières Numériques , Lyon , France
Sound - restoration facility : L . E . Diapason , Paris
LA COLLECTIONNEUSE
Picture element : 35 mm original camera negative Scanner : Scanity • Transfer resolution : 2K .
ound element : 35 mm magnetic track Restoration facility : Digimage Classics / Hivenly ,
Joinville le Pont , France
CLAIRE ' S KNEE
Picture element
nent : 35 mm original camera negative Scanner : Scanity . Transfer resolution : 2K
Sound Joinville element le Pont , : France 35 mm mag
ent : 35 mm magnetic track • Restoration facility : Digimage Classics / Hivenly
LOVE
IN THE AFTERNOON
Picture
element
negative Scanner : Scanity . Transfer resolution : 2K
Sound element : : 35 35 mm mm
Joinville le Pont 5 mm magnetic mo track • Restoration facility : Digimage Class
, France
c mastering : Pixelogic , Los Angeles

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#284 Post by tenia » Mon May 11, 2020 4:55 am

It's decipherable enough, thanks Chris !

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#285 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:55 am

Revisiting Claire's Knee, it took me half the film to realize that Jean-Claude Brialy was playing Jerome, which I guess is in part due to the beard... but he really resigns his natural charm to evaporate into such a vapid character. I liked the film a lot more this round, and Molly Haskell's essay really helped, especially in how she reinforces (in a much more astute analysis) what I've long tried to argue about the authentic sides of often-negated MPDG tropes. Specifically how the presence of another person (here, in heterosexual relationships, a member of the opposite sex) can and does prompt change through their existence and how we react to that information in beauty, personality, what is said and done and what is withheld, in perspective and actuality. Brialy's blank canvas of a person helps turn the tables where he becomes our vessel of desired voyeurism and conventional forced morality, and the women aren't being empowered by a male gaze, but are naturally left as powered, left alone to operate independently of our projections, which we must sit with in isolation.

While "we" could be argued to be limited to heterosexual male viewers, I think the concepts at hand extend to all people, regardless of sex or sexuality. After all, who doesn't have moral codes of restraint competing with their ids? To go deeper, who is exempt from the process of higher cognitive functions wrestling with sexual and emotional yearning, leaving us confused and ultimately alone in that experience? I love how Rohmer doesn't really let his characters 'connect' in the ways our expectations crave, recognizing an ethereal magic surrounding inherently alienated existences. Intellectualization cannot compete with beauty, in all its various connotations, but instead it's part of that beauty even when it acts as a thorn. Rohmer's vision of a good life is one inclusive of fallibility, unawareness, and pain -because we all operate with imperfections, ignorance, and struggle to overcome hardships- and if all of that is part of life, he can accept it for us through his objectivity, until we're ready to ourselves. Maybe that's why I feel so safe and comfortable in his films that demand uncomfortable introspection. It's certainly the best way I can describe his stance, and why I find him to be inspirational to Hong Sangsoo's own process of assessing personal and universal complex experiences through art.

I don't know much, but I do know that touching Claire's knee is not a form of interpersonal connection, though it's not wholly shallow either. One could say it's a spiritual experience that exists solipsistically, signifying more than just the drummed-up palpable ideas while operating with a longing that connects one's internal parts in ways Brialy (and by extension-we) are unable to fully comprehend. Perhaps because they transcend 'morality,' laughably conceived as a conclusive concept when it's only an ingredient in our anthropological soup.

User avatar
Mr Sausage
Not PETA approved
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Canada

La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#286 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:08 pm

DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, February 1st

Members have a two week period in which to discuss the film before it's moved to its dedicated thread in The Criterion Collection subforum. Please read the Rules and Procedures.

This thread is not spoiler free. This is a discussion thread; you should expect plot points of the individual films under discussion to be discussed openly. See: spoiler rules.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

I encourage members to submit questions, either those designed to elicit discussion and point out interesting things to keep an eye on, or just something you want answered. This will be extremely helpful in getting discussion started. Starting is always the hardest part, all the more so if it's unguided. Questions can be submitted to me via PM.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#287 Post by knives » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:13 pm

This is actually my favorite of the moral tales so although I didn’t vote for it I’m glad to get an opportunity to talk about it. It's probably the one that most closely approaches the sun in terms of the accusations of sexism in the series. The male characters are rather gross and their insult against her is highlighted by the title. I think Rohmer does use that negative energy to distance us from the men though and ultimately empathize with her. I'm curious about others feelings on Rohmer's use of tone to develop audience alliegences.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#288 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:59 pm

This is also probably my favorite Rohmer. Back in the Eric Rohmer collection thread you said something different (opposite even to "distancing us from the men") which I think it also accurate
knives wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:13 pm
In making us identify with his most cruel protagonist it naturally must become complicated.
to which I replied
therewillbeblus wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:16 pm
I haven’t seen it in a while but I believe it triggers an identification with narcissism and selfishness, both innate and situational, that validates them as part of natural human condition as well as defense mechanisms as protection from psychological truths. I think Rohmer does this throughout his work but this is one of his riskiest and most morally dense projects.
Having now seen it again recently I think both of your statements (then and now) are mostly correct, though I think we may 'sympathize' with Haydée but Rohmer intentionally forbids us from full empathy for admirable reasons. I think he's doing several things at once, at least for male audiences: providing us with unlikable surrogates that make us confront our own defects and vulnerabilities as men- through both identification and detachment; as well as demonstrating this identification and detachment through our neutral view of the lone woman as oppressed and oppressive. The double standard is evident, as is her position of being subjectively viewed as 'lesser' and used like an object, but she remains enigmatic and unknowable, so we stay fixed to the viewpoint of our toxic lead's limitations, which halts us from empathizing (as the wonderful essay in the Criterion booklet supports). I think there's a breadth of psychological defense mechanisms causing this lashing out from the men, but it's partly because they secretly want that ability to be desired and collect women with ease, which really signals the sensitivity and pathetic nature of dominant groups who can't cope with the knowledge that someone else has something that they want, or the jealousy at the normally-suppressed evidence bubbling up that they are unable to maintain dominance in every domain.

My early experience watching this film revealed several layers of sober revelations: the first thought was that the woman is likely using sex in this way because it's a primary way for her to emerge from an oppressed position, to gain power and be valued, but that temptation to pathologize her is precisely what Rohmer is bringing out of us and chastising us for simplifying, and defaulting to a narcissistic confidence in an effort to repress our excluded vantage points from her consciousness. The truth (and my second 'revelation') is that her mysterious and intentionally aloof position from us allows for the possibility that she just likes it and that's fine, that she's "searching" as she says, and that Adrien, Daniel, and just as importantly, we, have no business or right to intrude upon and find out 'what for'. What challenges the main character and by extension the audience is that our diagnostics we want to thrust on her with our mastery don't necessarily fit, and God forbid she's the most self-actualized person of the bunch! God forbid the bullying doesn't actually affect her as much as the men want to hurt her, or to the lengths that they would be hurt by if done to them! Those thoughts don't cross the mind of our leads, but the very notion that they could be true disempowers Adrien and strips the him of the power he thinks he has, which has little value, virtue, or meaning, beyond a maladaptive tool to avoid self-reflection.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#289 Post by knives » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:25 pm

That’s interesting. Particularly the last paragraph as I never had the thought that she was using sex at all and that it was either an imagination or a lie by the men to leave a situation they could no longer handle as their immaturity couldn’t allow them to be honest about the situation.

As to the complications and contradictions of my statements, I agree and would say I was speaking to different parts of the film in each of them. Rohmer as typical for this cycle makes the immediate point of sympathy through the point of view masculine, but in his most explicit effort of the cycle uses the derogatory elements of the cycle to push off that empathy from the masculine to the feminine.

Claire’s Knees, another favorite, is the opposite in that way and useful as a point of comparison. There Rohmer presents his most sympathetic protagonist who he jokes with by affording constant self awareness and reflexivity through his engagement as a member of the chorus. This despite him perhaps being the most unforgivable of the men because of who his attraction is and the fact that he can take himself out of the story.

In La collection ruse by contrast the men do the most obvious violence, the kicking the ground before the shouting shocks me just thinking of it, yet through their arrested nature locked into the moment and not really able to grasp their situation they are the most sympathetic in the fashion of reacting differently when a child throws a tantrum compared to an adult. I think this also helps with one of the ambiguities of the cycle which is what is the moral and who is it intended for. I think it is fair to say that the moral is the only way to relate to others in a healthy way is to know yourself and act on that knowledge by applying it to others. It’s no wonder that Maud features that long conversation about Billie Eilish! The application seems to me to be for parents in order to avoid the mistakes we see here.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#290 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:54 pm

Oh I know you were speaking to different parts, which is what I was trying to validate- I often think the best films are formed from contradictions and so I was using both of your statements as truths forming a whole. To be clear, I didn't ever think that she was using sex in the way that the men say she is, but the thought crossed my mind that she may be 'getting power where she can' as a strength, which is a line of thought often adopted with marginalized populations (especially among traumatized children, my experience)- but Rohmer exposes this as an oversimplification and thus a problematic erasure of complex humanity, founded within the schema of the intellectual man trying to "explain" her. For the same reasons, we cannot "empathize" with her- not because she isn't human but become our point of entry is forced to be through Adrien, and Rohmer allowing her to remain enigmatic, and not capable of being empathized with (surely she's the most sympathetic character), is ironically the most humble and empowering move he can make- allowing her mystery to empower herself and not rest on the laurels of men- be them the characters, Rohmer, or us.

I agree with you on the sympathetic reading of Adrien too, which I tried to summarize briefly in my initial response quoted back in the Rohmer Collection thread. We aren't meant to forgive or like him, nor does Rohmer challenge us to sympathize with him, but through challenging us to relate to him he makes us confront our own struggles with making sense of our restrictions to understand or engage in our milieus and that broad existential predicament draws sympathy in a roundabout way. It's funny you bring up Claire's Knee because I just looked back at my writeup from last year, and my first paragraph essentially reiterates Rohmer's act of allowing the women to empower themselves rather than being willed into empowerment by him or any male character.

I just reread the essay in the Six Moral Tale booklet and was surprised to find that it mostly fits with my impressions, and really fleshes out what Rohmer is doing here better than I can. This brief passage summarizes a lot of what I'm trying to say:
La collectionneuse offers a case study in rationalization. With its rich, unapologetically literary, first-person voice-over narration by Adrien, the film is essentially about the disparity between the main characters’ subjective interpretations of events and another, wider truth, which may be gleaned by the spectator eavesdropping on the proceedings.

User avatar
Sloper
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:06 pm

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#291 Post by Sloper » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:09 am

Of the Rohmer films I’ve seen (not that many), La collectionneuse is one that I find especially challenging. As with Maud, I keep getting lost in the sententious, philosophising dialogue, and I struggle to keep track of what’s going on; I guess that’s kind of the idea… But as such, it’s really nice to read this discussion between people who ‘get’ this film, as I’d like to find a way into it.

I just wanted to pick up on another detail in Lopate’s essay, which I think casts an interesting light on the conversation about the (failed) relation between the two men and Haydée:
Philip Lopate wrote:The sense of contrast in an earthly paradise in which the loveliest landscapes serve as ironic background for the pettiest exchanges is heightened by Almendros’s extraordinary color photography, with its warm brown tones and deep, rich blues.
It seems to be a kind of running joke in Rohmer’s work that people go on holiday to these beautiful, sunlit locations that are ostensibly conducive to relaxation and fun…but then they never actually enjoy themselves, instead getting embroiled in complex, antagonistic, and deeply unrewarding romantic affairs.

I think there’s a connection between the two kinds of obliviousness: the failure to enjoy the place and the holiday, and the failure to engage with Haydée as a real person. There’s a moment when she says to Adrien that she would have liked to be friends with him and Daniel, and her comment carries a sense of lost opportunities. The fact that she actually seems to enjoy her holiday, and will probably continue doing so after being discarded by Daniel, along with her interesting and eclectic reading habits (a comic book, a book on German Romanticism by Albert Béguin [anyone know anything about this?], and the book with the black-and-red cover that maybe looks like a thriller) further reinforce our sense that she has (and nurtures) a reflective inner life that would be worth asking about and engaging with. Meanwhile, Adrien and Daniel stamp their feet and make gestures and spout quasi-profound platitudes that mask an inner emptiness.

It reminds me of the Rohmer film I’ve enjoyed most (next to Perceval), The Green Ray, where everyone keeps needling Delphine and trying to make her conform to their way of ‘being on holiday’ and experiencing places and having fun and falling in love, but everything they do feels so constrained and artificial. Mild spoiler for that film:
SpoilerShow
When she finally makes a real connection with someone (via a book) it’s like a breath of fresh air.
I think in La collectionneuse that breath of fresh air only comes at the very end, when Adrien realises (without saying so) that he’s lonely, that what he really wants is to stop playing these games and connect with someone; and we’re left wondering whether this insight will have an impact on his relationship with the woman in London, or whether he’s just lapsing back into his familiar dysfunctional patterns.

Craig Wallace
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 9:22 am

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#292 Post by Craig Wallace » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:39 am

The book with the black and red cover that Haydée is reading is Dracula by Bram Stoker. There is also a copy of Malpertuis by Jean Ray on the table supporting the lamp beside her as she reads Dracula. The reading of Gothic supernatural fiction might fit well with the text on romanticism. The comic book appears to be an adaptation of Tarzan, so an interest in pulp serials too. Haydée's reading may not be so broad and diverse. There appears to be a particular focus.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#293 Post by knives » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:04 am

Sloper, I imagine watching the film with subtitles off might actually help. Contrary to popular opinion I find these very visually based films and would argue that the dialogue functions more as a directive commentary. I know with Godard who can also make dense films ignoring the dialogue at times has helped me.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: La collectionneuse (Éric Rohmer, 1967)

#294 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:05 am

Sloper wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:09 am
I just wanted to pick up on another detail in Lopate’s essay, which I think casts an interesting light on the conversation about the (failed) relation between the two men and Haydée:
Philip Lopate wrote:The sense of contrast in an earthly paradise in which the loveliest landscapes serve as ironic background for the pettiest exchanges is heightened by Almendros’s extraordinary color photography, with its warm brown tones and deep, rich blues.
It seems to be a kind of running joke in Rohmer’s work that people go on holiday to these beautiful, sunlit locations that are ostensibly conducive to relaxation and fun…but then they never actually enjoy themselves, instead getting embroiled in complex, antagonistic, and deeply unrewarding romantic affairs.

I think there’s a connection between the two kinds of obliviousness: the failure to enjoy the place and the holiday, and the failure to engage with Haydée as a real person. There’s a moment when she says to Adrien that she would have liked to be friends with him and Daniel, and her comment carries a sense of lost opportunities. The fact that she actually seems to enjoy her holiday, and will probably continue doing so after being discarded by Daniel, along with her interesting and eclectic reading habits (a comic book, a book on German Romanticism by Albert Béguin [anyone know anything about this?], and the book with the black-and-red cover that maybe looks like a thriller) further reinforce our sense that she has (and nurtures) a reflective inner life that would be worth asking about and engaging with. Meanwhile, Adrien and Daniel stamp their feet and make gestures and spout quasi-profound platitudes that mask an inner emptiness.
I almost quoted that wonderful observation in the essay as well, and that's a really insightful connection to make, Sloper. I definitely see this "running joke" but a bit differently- focusing less on the external engagements and more on the internal psychological vacuums of unrealised desires that these characters fall victim to.. Now, that doesn't necessitate affection for them, but it does imbue the beautiful scenery with a cynical pathos rooted in narcissism as a weight some are impotent to lift to see the peripheral beauty that we do. As an audience we can objectively acknowledge these opportunities for grace all around, and also empathize with that inability to get out of our own way to access it. I think Haydée is partially an effective enigma because she can bask in it, and so we, just like the male characters, are subconsciously interested in her secret strategy, which we and they foolishly wish to obtain with 'knowledge' when we need to engage in the therapeutic work to grow into absorbing that dimension independently with personal development, not by proxy. But of course these characters, just like the viewer expecting mastery, don't want to really do the hard work- or to reframe more charitably, don't have the blueprint for it. Observing Haydée may help us only if we really pay attention with open-mindedness and willingness, though sadly Adrien doesn't and so he stays in a vicious cycle unable to view the beauty right in front of him physically, yet so far away mentally.

User avatar
bottled spider
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: 342-348 Six Moral Tales

#295 Post by bottled spider » Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:29 pm

I've seen My Night at Maud's a few times, but some things struck me afresh revisiting it again:

- the two excerpts of sermons are electrifying, even for an inveterate unbeliever. As explained in one of the extras, these were real sermons, filmed during real church services.

- I assume then that the violin recital was a real public performance too. It is an excellent, old-fashioned performance in any case, and a nice moment of refreshment.

- Rohmer dialogue often goes in one ear and out the other. I mean I do like it, but I often can't remember a word of it the next day, even if it wasn't my first viewing -- La collectionneuse especially. But the conversations in My Night at Maud's -- the theology and philosophy, and all that intellectualizing over relationships -- register more deeply than other Rohmers.

- the introduction of the protagonist Jean-Louis doesn't show him in the best light. During church he looks at the stranger Francoise intently enough that she gives him a sharp look in return. Although he hasn't done anything wrong, we might suspect him of being a bit creepy, or of being insincere in his church attendance. When he then tries to follow the cycling Francoise in his car, his aggressive driving is alarmingly cavalier toward the pedestrians crowding the streets. I'm quite prepared to dislike him at this point. I don't warm to him until that charming moment when, on being introduced to Maud's young daughter of about five or six, he stands up and formally shakes her hand.

Post Reply