Rainer Werner Fassbinder

[Don Lope de Aguirre]

Yes Fassbinder often looked like a slob but you shouldn't read anything into this... For example, Truffaut may have looked more like an artist (whatever they look like) but if you compare him to Fassbinder there can be no doubting who the superior film maker is!

It surprises me to hear that a few people didn't like 'The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant'. It is prob. my favorite Fassbinder (and one of my all time favorites). Why is it exactly that people don't like it?

[Ishmael]

oh i can't remember the name of it...the one that deals with a lot of marxist ideas, its very Godard-esq, it feels like a journey film...

The Niklashausen Journey. It reminded me of a Godard film as well, particularly the long Marxist monologues. I couldn't decide whether the extraordinarily sloppy camerawork was intentional or not, though.

I just watched "Why Does Herr R. Run Amok?" today [...] The acting is much more naturalistic than in much of his other work, and the long takes of his banal daily existence completely worked for me, and weren't slow or boring in the least. You know he's going to "run amok" and are left constantly trying to figure out how these all add up to such a random act of violence. And when it finally happens, the scene has much more power than I was anticipating.

Yes, the "long takes of his banal daily existence" made this seem kind of like The Office (BBC Version) without any of the humor. It's got that same low-key naturalism. Interestingly, I didn't think the film had any answer for "how these all add up to such a random act of violence." In fact, the titular question struck me less as an inquiry into why this happened in this particular instance and more as a general query as to why this sort of thing doesn't happen much more often. I mean, most peoples' lives aren't a whole lot more interesting than Raab's. If he can lose his mind so believably, then what holds the rest of us together? I have to disagree with you about the scene of violence itself, though. I didn't find it powerful at all. (I would compare it to something like Taxi Driver, where the explosion, for me, is gut-wrenching.) However, in Herr R., the very fact that the violence was so casual, pointless, and unexciting struck me as part of the message. Even during such an extreme act of aggression, poor Kurt Raab's life is still more boring than he can cope with.

[Alain3000]

The massacre of a family by the main protagonist in Mitsuo Yanagimachi's Hitmatsuri/Fire Festival reminds me a little of the act of violence in Why Does Herr R Run Amok?.

[jorencain]

I didn't find it powerful at all. (I would compare it to something like Taxi Driver, where the explosion, for me, is gut-wrenching.) However, in Herr R., the very fact that the violence was so casual, pointless, and unexciting struck me as part of the message. Even during such an extreme act of aggression, poor Kurt Raab's life is still more boring than he can cope with.

I'm just glad he did it. If that skiing story had gone on any longer... I guess that scene just affected us differently. Because there is no fanfare around his actions, it does flow naturally from the rest of the film, which makes it all the more believable. It's as straightforward as you can get, but the calmness with which he does it was very unnerving to me. And I agree with you, that he is asking why it doesn't happen more often. It had such an effect for me because it was so real and was neither hyped up nor downplayed.

[GringoTex]

For example, Truffaut may have looked more like an artist (whatever they look like) but if you compare him to Fassbinder there can be no doubting who the superior film maker is!

You're right- I love both but would probably have to give the nod to Truffaut

[Michael]

I think perhaps some of my reservations about him being a true artist also inadvertently came from how he looks...he looks NOTHING like what one would expect of a serious filmmaker. you look at Godard, Truffaut, all of the Nouvelle Vague guys, and they look really studious, they look smart...then you look at Fassbinder, he's very unkempt, overweight, dressed very boring, he doesn't have the look of an "artist" but he is, and he's a damn fine artist to boot!

Huh? What are artists supposed to look like? Actually I think Fassbinder looks hot in Fox and His Friends.

[jesus the mexican boi]

It's the horsecock in the mudbaths scene. Even straight guys sit up and say, "Hello."

[Don Lope de Aguirre]

In Fox and His Friends you could argue that he looked 'fresh'... but as we all know he worked hard and played hard...and it showed! He, most of the time when I've seen him, resembled something that I'd imagine crawling out of the toilet! (not that it has anything to do with his film making...)

[kieslowski_67]

fassbinder is definetly one of those filmmakers who you really have to watch a handful of his films before you can really begin to appreciate him.

Why? I was glued to his films since I first watched "lili marleen" in 1982 as a teenager. That was followed by BRD trilogy and "Querelle" (a rare misfire by Fassbinder). The high point came from watching "berlin alexanderplatz" in probably 1991 when Fassbinder literally became one of my top 10 favorite directors of all time.

[Lemmy Caution]

I've enjoyed this thread alot. Even need to go back and re-read the posts about the actresses Fassbinder uses.

The first Fassbinder I saw would be a few episodes of Berlin Alexanderplatz, when it originally aired on PBS in the US. It was surprisingly involving, but I think I only managed to see 2 1/2 parts.

Then last year, In A Year With 13 Moons really bowled me over. Just such an intense film, with an amazing central performance by Volker Spengler. Such a raw and devastating film. So now I pick up whatever Fassbinder I can.

I was disappointed with Beware of a Holy Whore. Just seemed that there was nothing much there. Or maybe that it was one big in-joke. I did enjoy seeing Eddie Constantine though. Would be interested in hearing from supporters of Holy Whore why they liked it.

Next up, Ali: Fear Eats The Soul was interesting and touching. Very interesting that Fassbinder was tackling such issues in mid-70's West Germany .
Then The Stationmaster's Wife was enjoyable but hasn't really stuck in my mind.

A few weeks ago, I went through the BRD trilogy. Thoroughly enjoyed it all. For some reason, the pacing and feel of Maria Braun put me in mind of 13 Moons. Veronika Voss absolutely blew me away. I just loved the entire look and feel of the film. So assured and accomplished. Easily my favorite Fassbinder. I'll try to dig up a post I wrote about it on another forum. Lola was solid, but I'd rate it below the other two. Not sure if that's because V. Voss was a such a difficult film to follow/measure up to, or because Lola covered thematic territory rather similar to Maria Braun.

From an interview, I was surprised to learn that Veronika Voss was shot in only 20 days. My memory is slipping a little (as I watched all of the trilogy within a 10 day period), but I think it was Veronika Voss which was filmed in sequence. I was wondering if Fassbinder made any of his other films that way?

Fear of Fear is a small film, but a well-done mood piece.

I have on Dvd-- but yet to watch-- Love is Colder Than Death, Whity, Pioneers in Ingolstadt and Martha. Was encouraged by the praise in this thread for both Whity and Martha which I had thought were regarded as lesser Fassbinder.

I know that I've missed quite a few important Fassbinder films, but I'm in China, and at the mercy of whatever Dvd's turn up.

One last question: Is Tenderness of The Wolves worth watching? I know it wasn't directed by Fassbinder, but I haven't seen any Fassbinder films where he has more than merely a cameo acting role.

[Michael]

Nothing makes me more joyous than reading the freshly discovered love for Fassbinder that still continues to grow into the next generation. And the next.

Veronika Voss absolutely blew me away. I just loved the entire look and feel of the film. So assured and accomplished. Easily my favorite Fassbinder. I'll try to dig up a post I wrote about it on another forum.

Can't wait to read more of your love for Veronika Voss which is also my favorite Fassbinder.

Don't wait another day to watch Martha. It's really a very deranged love story with the performance of Margit Carstensen that will completely devastate you. Don't forget Fox and His Friends and Chinese Roulette which I also like.

[Lemmy Caution]

Glad to be spreading some joy.
Fassbinder is definitely made a slew of intriguing films.
I will try to unearth Martha from the strange purgatory known as the unwatched Dvd pile.

I did plan to go back and see which posters favored Veronika Voss. I was stunned that someone a little ways back said that the whole BRD Trilogy left them cold.

It's interesting how much Fassbinder focuses on women. In Fear of Fear and Maria Braun, the husbands hardly exist. One interviewee (the star of Lola?) posited that Fassbinder felt that women were more emotionally complex and were allowed a much greater expression of emotion than men.

[Matt]

One last question: Is Tenderness of The Wolves worth watching? I know it wasn't directed by Fassbinder, but I haven't seen any Fassbinder films where he has more than merely a cameo acting role.

Yes, definitely. Don't expect profundity, but it is a rewarding film.

[Lemmy Caution]

Thanks Matt. I'll have to make sure I pick up T-Wolves now.

Here were my thoughts after watching two-thirds of the BRD Trilogy a few weeks ago. It's late here, so I'm just going to paste them whole:

Slowly making my way through Fassbinder's BRD Trilogy. I enjoyed and was impressed with The Marriage of Maria Braun. But Veronika Voss just blew me away. I was completely immersed in it. Just such a gorgeous look to the film. Some wonderful camerawork and interior sets (especially the doctor's office).

Of course there is a general re-telling of Sunset Boulevard, but also echoes of other great films. I caught a reference or two to Murnau's Sunrise (sunrise and sunset blvd? -- echoing the film's contrasting themes of light and dark, good and bad, success and failure, life and death). The sportswriter who was the lead male character, with his worker's cap and meaty unemotional face, reminded me of Jean Gabin. Or perhaps Eddie Constantine in Alphaville, as I kept thinking of Godard throughout the film. But the echoes also flowed forward in time, as I thought Guy Maddin and Lars von Trier might have learned a trick or two from Veronika Voss.

Another poster wrote:

The Marriage of Maria Braun and Veronika Voss. Loved them both, but since I saw them two years ago, I can't tell one from the other.

Lemmy C had to reply to that!

Very different movies, with the only real meeting point that both feature a female lead in post-war Germany.

Maria Braun is the ultimate survivor. Trying to get ahead and have economic security, while remaining true to her husband in her own odd way. She uses her sexuality and brains and connections to move up in the world. Two things I liked from the extras.
(1) Maria Braun being described as a "cynical idealist."
Marriage and fidelity are her ideals, and she becomes ruthless and unfaithful in maintaining them. The social commentary in Maria Braun is overt.
(2) During an interview it is suggested that the film could be re-titled,
Maria Braun: Money Eats The Soul.

Veronika Voss is on the other hand the ultimate victim. She's a victim of her past fame, her insecurities, her drug addiction. She's weak, the flip-side of Maria Braun's indomitable spirit. There are some hints of drugs being used by Veronika (and the elderly Treblinka survivor) to forget the (Nazi) past. But aside from that, the social commentary is more subtle and hard to find.

But the major difference is the look and feel of the two films. Maria Braun is filmed in color, as she confidently engages with the emerging modern (West) Germany. Veronika Voss is in black-and-white, as the film and title character nostalgically look back to an idealized past. Maria Braun has a theatrical manner from scene to scene that characterizes much of Fassbinder's work. VV is much sleeker and more flowing.

I actually can't recall right now what reminded me of Sunrise. I'd say the whole manipulative criminal operation in V. Voss carries with it the general vibe of Dr. Mabuse.

[Michael]

I actually can't recall right now what reminded me of Sunrise.

Yeah, I'm interested to know because I fail to detect any thing in common between Sunrise and Veronika Voss except that they both have stunning black & white photography. Have you seen Argento's Suspiria? Veronica Voss is sort of like Suspiria filmed in black & white. Both films open with almost exaggerated thunderstorms and both also deal with women being caged and drugged by a coven of evil "bosses". Both films can been seen as wholly cinematic fairy tales with an Eastern European flavor.

[zedz]

I was disappointed with Beware of a Holy Whore. Just seemed that there was nothing much there. Or maybe that it was one big in-joke. I did enjoy seeing Eddie Constantine though. Would be interested in hearing from supporters of Holy Whore why they liked it. . . .

I have on Dvd-- but yet to watch-- Love is Colder Than Death, Whity, Pioneers in Ingolstadt and Martha. Was encouraged by the praise in this thread for both Whity and Martha which I had thought were regarded as lesser Fassbinder.

Fassbinder's work has traditionally been divided into pre-Sirk and post-Sirk films (with Merchant of 4 Seasons as the dividing line), but I think his development is far more nuanced than that. There's a huge development within that early, furious period where he was heavily indebted to Straub / Huillet and (to a lesser extent) Godard, but as a whole the films are far more austere and anti-naturalistic than the later ones. This probably accounts for your different reaction to Holy Whore. Fassbinder's filmmaking during this early period was quite different from his later works (the strychnine had less sugar-coating, for one thing), so it will be interesting to see how you respond to the first three films on your to-see pile.

I'd recommend taking in the early films, as much as possible, in chronological order, so you can trace that development. I've recently acquired a real taste for those early films. Love Is Colder than Death is a hellishly audiacious debut, almost completely indifferent to the norms of commercial cinema, but neverthless trying to tell a genre tale. It's almost like Fassbinder had heard a lot about films but had never seen one.

Whity is a florid and ambitious melodrama, more Morrissey than Sirk. Holy Whore is sort of an answer film to it. Martha, as noted above, is fantastic, and definitely not minor Fassbinder. It may be his most poisonous subversion of the Hollywood melodrama form and Margit is relentless in the lead role.

Of the films that are readily available that you haven't seen, there are several absolutely key works (e.g. Merchant, Petra, Effi), and several unusual ones that will give you a strong sense of RWF's range: Satan's Brew, Fox, one of the Fengler collaborations (Niklashausen Journey is probably the more surprising of the two).

It's best not to think about the major films that aren't available, like Jail Bait, Bremen Freedom, Berlin A - sigh.

[BrightEyes23]

[quote="Lemmy Caution"] I was disappointed with Beware of a Holy Whore. Just seemed that there was nothing much there. Or maybe that it was one big in-joke. I did enjoy seeing Eddie Constantine though. Would be interested in hearing from supporters of Holy Whore why they liked it.
You know...I've always kind of thought that it was one big in-joke, and thats the charm of it. I look at it (and I've read the same view point in a book, I can't remember what one), that it was sort of a culmination of the films he had made previously to it, and it was his own personal way, (which every film he's made I believe is) of blowing off steam from the entire critical and commercial reception, and just wanted to make a movie for himself. Does that make sense to anyone or have I lost my mind and am babbling on?

[Anonymous]

well i began berlin alexanderplatz today

sucks that it has to be vhs but i'm going to try to get through it all this week

[jorencain]

Are you aware that it's on the horizon from Criterion, probably in 2007? Not that you should wait until then to watch it, of course.

[stroszeck]

It's a funny thing, I've been raving for years (all throughout the VHS/Betamax time period) about including JAILBAIT, which I absolutely loved watching years ago, in ANY medium, and I am still really surprised that this one has not been restored or re-evaluated like so many of Fassbinder's other films. I think that one is a gem.

[jesus the mexican boi]

It's supposedly in legal limbo over the Kroetz source material that Fassbinder Fassbinder-ized much to the disapproval of the Kroetz kamp(f).

But that original Deutsche poster is sure alluring, what with nubile nekkid Eva Mattes on it. That is Eva Mattes, innit? On my list of movies I wish I could see now, fer shure.

[spencerw]

I was disappointed with Beware of a Holy Whore. ... Would be interested in hearing from supporters of Holy Whore why they liked it.

Jim Clark's thoughts are worth a read.

[Lemmy Caution]

well i began berlin alexanderplatz today sucks that it has to be vhs but i'm going to try to get through it all this week

Are you aware that it's on the horizon from Criterion, probably in 2007? Not that you should wait until then to watch it, of course.

I wasn't aware of that. That is great news (or at least a very good rumor). BA is over 16 hours long, so would have to be 6 or more discs.

[spencerw]

Are you aware that it's on the horizon from Criterion, probably in 2007? Not that you should wait until then to watch it, of course.

Has there been any news on this project since the Fassbinder Foundation's announcement about remastering the film last year?

[jorencain]

I'm not sure. There was some news about it on some incarnation of this forum, so you can feel free to do a search for that. I think it was more than mere speculation that Criterion would be involved, but I don't want to start unsubstantiated rumors. I'll see if I can find the source (or if someone else on here can back me up). Either way, I imagine that we should be seeing a DVD release of it at some point in '07 or '08.

I just did a google search, and there doesn't seem to be any news more recent than last last year, but Criterion's interest in the restoration was mentioned on dvdbeaver at the time, and I found this quote on a board on GreenCine.com:
"More news on Berlin Alexanderplatz, this time from a recent Fassbinder Foundation newsletter stating that Criterion is interested in acquiring the US rights to Berlin Alexanderplatz for a special edition. That said, the Foundation is still raising money for the restoration and does not foresee its completion until the end of 2006."