UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[Finch]

I've seen several BR users report on the Roman Holiday UHD and a consensus seems to be forming that the contrast is better on the 4k and the grain is more pronounced but that it's not an upgrade otherwise, and not worth it for the full RRP. Source limitations likely a factor in this, too.

[therewillbeblus]

Are we expecting Arrow's Time Bandits UHD to supersede Criterion's?

[tenia]

VDM have been routinely remastering or restoring stuff for Canal over the past few years and in part the reason why Canal have now a higher exploration pace of their catalogue than what they used to. They are also working with Gaumont, TF1 DA (who then now sublicence to other labels for video releases) or Le chat qui fume. As a whole, I think they are amongst the least "recognizable" French lab currently color-grading wise.
I recently published an interview I did with them at Lyon Film Festival 2022 (and which was loooong due for a publication) : https://testsbluray.com/2023/07/14/vdm- ... -de-films/

[nicolas]

Are we expecting Arrow's Time Bandits UHD to supersede Criterion's?

I personally do based on available caps (which are DV FEL caps, so everything is visible). A few others who bought the Criterion disagree and claim it’s a solid upgrade but in my opinion (when comparing on caps-a-holic), Criterion only managed to match Arrow’s BD with their UHD. Some shots are practically identical now. I presume this is due to the filtering that was inherent to Criterion’s BD and due to the same being present in the UHD encode we have the difference in format but close to identical resolution. I’m looking forward to the Arrow UHD.

[nicolas]

VDM have been routinely remastering or restoring stuff for Canal over the past few years and in part the reason why Canal have now a higher exploration pace of their catalogue than what they used to. They are also working with Gaumont, TF1 DA (who then now sublicence to other labels for video releases) or Le chat qui fume. As a whole, I think they are amongst the least "recognizable" French lab currently color-grading wise.
I recently published an interview I did with them at Lyon Film Festival 2022 (and which was loooong due for a publication) : https://testsbluray.com/2023/07/14/vdm- ... -de-films/

Thank you for sharing your interview, I’ll read it later. Longer conversations with representatives of such labs are way too rare, so this will surely be a great source of information.

Based on what you said about them being less predictable in imposing their “color signature” onto restored films, I feel even more confirmed to say that this one colorist effectively dictated how the film should look now. Since SC didn’t mention that archival / reference material was used for Cutthroad Island, he likely winged the grade and had a field day with it. No mention either that Harlin approved it. Very sad.

[tenia]

I suspect that DVD Classik's newcomer Dante10 is someone from VDM and this person is stating that has been used as a color reference for Cutthroat Island "an exploitation print in flawless state".

[nicolas]

I suspect that DVD Classik's newcomer Dante10 is someone from VDM and this person is stating that has been used as a color reference for Cutthroat Island "an exploitation print in flawless state".

Interesting, so they used something and it’s even better if the print was in great condition. I’m just wondering why SC failed to mention this in the info text before the film. They did it with Le Mépris and others, so any immediate controversy around the apparent changes in the color grade was tempered right away. This would have been adequate here as people are, once again, not used to their favorite film suddenly looking more or less drastically different. The older master definitely has issues (I agree with the magenta push) but to have confirmation that the new grade was based on something substantial is very important. I’m looking forward to my UK copy now and to seeing the film for the first time. Shame about the encoding though.

[hearthesilence]

Assuming one either subcribes to the Criterion Channel or already has an older Criterion Blu-ray release of The Seventh Seal, the only discernable advantage of the CC 4K would be the subtitles I imagine. And considering the QC issues at the Mexican pressing plant Criterion uses, the superior subs aren’t enough of a reason to get me to double dip.

FWIW, it seems like the concerns about erroneous subtitles is not only overblown but completely inaccurate. The key claim is how Death is supposedly erroneously referred to as the Devil, but if you watch the disc, he's nearly ALWAYS referred to as "Death." The one instance where he isn't is about 20 minutes in when the knight accidentally discloses his game strategy to Death at the church. He makes a reference to "playing chess with the Devil" in the BFI's translation while Criterion translates it as "playing chess with Death," and this is then repeated 2-3 times between the characters in this very scene. In this context, it's really a figure of speech and not a belief that he is literally playing against the Devil.

In other words, there is NOTHING wrong with the BFI's UHD edition.

[therewillbeblus]

Is there any reason to wait to see if Lionsgate's 4K of Les Mepris will be superior to the SC / Are we aware of any alternate, promising efforts going into the encode?

[nicolas]

Is there any reason to wait to see if Lionsgate's 4K of Les Mepris will be superior to the SC / Are we aware of any alternate, promising efforts going into the encode?

Initially I thought it’d be the exact same disc but this seems not to be true. The short films and German audio on the SC discs have been dropped according to the Lionsgate press release. I don’t have much hope but maybe we’ll see a surprise.

[M-A]

Initially I thought it’d be the exact same disc but this seems not to be true. The short films and German audio on the SC discs have been dropped according to the Lionsgate press release. I don’t have much hope but maybe we’ll see a surprise.

Even if it is a different encode, StudioCanal will probably handle it for them, if the Rambo discs are anything to go by. So another meh encode but it may be a bit better or a bit worse

[Finch]

Speaking of encodes, Arrow's Time Bandits disc was authored by Fidelity in Motion which might give it a slight edge over Criterion's but the latter did score a 9 in Chris's review.

[Metalane]

Hello!

Not sure if this is the proper thread, but I wanted to ask a question about Criterion’s upcoming The Princess Bride 4K release.

So, I’ve been in the hunt for reference quality 4K discs, and I heard the 2020 German release of TPB was immaculate. Now, is the upcoming Criterion release the same transfer, and if it’s not, do we expect it to match, or even surpass the German release? I mean sharpness, color, hdr, etc, wise.

[Ruined]

Speaking of encodes, Arrow's Time Bandits disc was authored by Fidelity in Motion which might give it a slight edge over Criterion's but the latter did score a 9 in Chris's review.

A note on HENRY 4K. Turbine stated that their disc did not have a gamut error as your list claims (and others assumed because of the greater saturation); instead, Turbine stated that they decided to match the contrast of the Dark Sky release and improve the color.

This does bear out in the screencaps, too. If we look at the below, for instance, the Arrow release has washed out blacks compared to the Turbine and the Dark Sky:

Turbine vs Dark Sky
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=21 ... 0&i=8&go=1

Arrow vs Dark Sky
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=23 ... 0&i=8&go=1


Now the Turbine does have more saturated colors than the Dark Sky and Arrow, but is this really a bad thing? The Dark Sky/Arrow release is highly undersaturated throughout. I think the majority of people if you just showed them the two releases would probably pick the Turbine's color. I would say the Turbine has accurate colors, while the Arrow/Dark Sky is undersaturated.

Now, if you want to lean towards the undersaturated look due to the director approval statement, the 30th anniversary Dark Sky is probably a better overall bet than the Arrow because of the Arrow's issue with rendering black level. If you want to lean towards the one that has the most natural colors, that looks to be the Turbine over the Dark Sky/Arrow. But I don't see any realistic scenario where the Arrow would be the choice just because it is a 4K disc - either the Dark Sky or the Turbine appear to be the play for this one.

I will also add that what Turbine did with the 4K SDR master of Henry, is really not very different that what Second Sight and Turbine did with the the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. They took previously desaturated SDR grade with muted colors and used HDR & WCG to create a more natural color grade - and people seemed to like that approach. Arrow, on the other hand for Henry, appears to have reduced the contrast and did not attempt to substantially improve the colors from the old SDR master.

Edit: below is turbine's full statement on the gamut error assumption:
We could not help but notice that there is some confusion about our UHD of HENRY. So instead of further assumptions we would like to share some facts.....Our HDR Dolby Vision grading for HENRY was finished in BT2020. So anyone still wondering, this has nothing to do with P3 being forced into BT2020......In terms of color, we did take advantage of the extended gamut, so you'll see some deeper saturations compared to the SDR version but we were very careful not to over-gloss anything or turn it into some candy-rainbow-wonderland kind of thing......As THE TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE has been brought up. Same situation. We did our own restoration and Dolby Vision HDR grading based on the SDR master by MPI; no wrong primaries/"P3 error".

[AxeYou]

They took previously desaturated SDR grade with muted colors and used HDR & WCG to create a more natural color grade

I'm curious what this means exactly.

Did they take a graded SDR master and boost it into HDR? That sounds... artificial? Almost like some TV's post-processing "feature."

Or were they using the SDR grade as a color reference for a new HDR grading from raw scans? That would be a common practice, right? For example, IIRC Arrow's 12 Monkeys HDR grading was also based on their previous SDR grade, according to the booklet.

[nicolas]

They took previously desaturated SDR grade with muted colors and used HDR & WCG to create a more natural color grade

I'm curious what this means exactly.

Did they take a graded SDR master and boost it into HDR? That sounds... artificial? Almost like some TV's post-processing "feature."

Or were they using the SDR grade as a color reference for a new HDR grading from raw scans? That would be a common practice, right? For example, IIRC Arrow's 12 Monkeys HDR grading was also based on their previous SDR grade, according to the booklet.

I’d like to know too. The statement sounds like they (albeit softly) boosted it despite the “correct” color space usage. In my mind, it doesn’t look bad and wouldn’t call it dramatic but either way, it should have happened “natively”, as AxeYou implied.

As far as I know, Second Sight based their new UHD version on the raw files and worked from scratch, including a new restoration and grade. I don’t think this is similar to Henry.

I also wonder whether the director, John McNaughton, approved Turbine’s doings or not. Although director-approvals should sometimes be taken with a grain of salt, I’d for now give the benefit of the doubt to Arrow as they’ve been working closely with him on other releases (Wild Things) and he’d been very hands-on as it seems, recording a new commentary, interviews etc. and approving the masters.

[Ruined]

They took previously desaturated SDR grade with muted colors and used HDR & WCG to create a more natural color grade

I'm curious what this means exactly.

Did they take a graded SDR master and boost it into HDR? That sounds... artificial? Almost like some TV's post-processing "feature."

Or were they using the SDR grade as a color reference for a new HDR grading from raw scans? That would be a common practice, right? For example, IIRC Arrow's 12 Monkeys HDR grading was also based on their previous SDR grade, according to the booklet.

I’d like to know too. The statement sounds like they (albeit softly) boosted it despite the “correct” color space usage. In my mind, it doesn’t look bad and wouldn’t call it dramatic but either way, it should have happened “natively”, as AxeYou implied.

As far as I know, Second Sight based their new UHD version on the raw files and worked from scratch, including a new restoration and grade. I don’t think this is similar to Henry.

I also wonder whether the director, John McNaughton, approved Turbine’s doings or not. Although director-approvals should sometimes be taken with a grain of salt, I’d for now give the benefit of the doubt to Arrow as they’ve been working closely with him on other releases (Wild Things) and he’d been very hands-on as it seems, recording a new commentary, interviews etc. and approving the masters.

As far as I know the Turbine HDR master of HENRY is not approved, but its also not disapproved. Meaning, it is in a similar boat as Texas Chainsaw Massacre HDR (both Turbine and Second Sight editions) - which also had some noticeable increases in saturation made by the labels compared to the director-approved 2014 4K SDR master, the last release that Tobe Hooper approved before his death.

For HENRY, it seems Arrow took the approach of basically replicating the 2016 4K SDR Dark Sky master in HDR/WCG pretty much verbatim - albeit with Arrow having perceivably lower contrast due to the less deep blacks. IMO the Arrow 4K seems quite redundant and almost unnecessary from a picture quality perspective - the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray already had excellent detail and resolved grain (its a 16mm film) and the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray appears to have superior contrast compared to the Arrow 4K.

On the other hand, Turbine after doing the TCM project looked at Henry and basically said "let's do that same process again," so instead of simply duplicating the 2016 4K SDR master they color corrected it to the extent that it still looks in the ballpark of the original but overall has less faded colors (same deal as TCM 4k). It's also worth noting that unlike the Arrow 4K, the Turbine 4K has black levels that are on-par with the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray, increasing the overall image contrast - this is because Turbine attempted to overall match the contrast of their grade to the 2016 Dark Sky 4K SDR unlike Arrow.

I personally compared the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray (which is excellent and IMO truly not even necessary to upgrade TBH) to the Turbine 4K and felt that the Turbine presented things such as the color of blood during the murder scenes far more convincingly - while the Dark Sky didn't look terrible its desaturated nature made the blood look obviously fake, while the Turbine looked grisly and realistic in those scenes which was much more impactful as a viewing experience. While it is not the perfect grade, for the majority of the film, the Turbine looked more "correct" from a color-correction perspective than the Dark Sky 2016 which the Arrow mimics. Still, I know some prefer the assurance of director approval, though it seems that most elected to upgrade to TCM 4K despite all of the 4K releases being substantially different in color and saturation from the director-approved 2014 4K master - I would say the differences with TCM are greater than Turbine's HENRY tweaks are.

My own take from a PQ perspective, the Turbine 4K is superior to the Arrow 4K for a couple reasons - first, the black levels/contrast issue, IMO the Arrow 4K actually looks worse than the 2016 Blu-ray here and the Turbine 4K does not suffer from this issue. Second, the Turbine 4K at least makes an attempt at an improved presentation vs the 2016 Blu-ray. Whether it is right, wrong, in the middle, approved, disapproved, or partially approved, the Turbine 4K offers a more color-corrected image than the Arrow 4K offers. If one doesn't like the color corrected image of the Turbine 4K for whatever reason, IMO then the fallback would be the Dark Sky 2016 director-approved Blu-ray for the superior contrast instead of the Arrow 4K.

[nicolas]

I'm curious what this means exactly.

Did they take a graded SDR master and boost it into HDR? That sounds... artificial? Almost like some TV's post-processing "feature."

Or were they using the SDR grade as a color reference for a new HDR grading from raw scans? That would be a common practice, right? For example, IIRC Arrow's 12 Monkeys HDR grading was also based on their previous SDR grade, according to the booklet.

I’d like to know too. The statement sounds like they (albeit softly) boosted it despite the “correct” color space usage. In my mind, it doesn’t look bad and wouldn’t call it dramatic but either way, it should have happened “natively”, as AxeYou implied.

As far as I know, Second Sight based their new UHD version on the raw files and worked from scratch, including a new restoration and grade. I don’t think this is similar to Henry.

I also wonder whether the director, John McNaughton, approved Turbine’s doings or not. Although director-approvals should sometimes be taken with a grain of salt, I’d for now give the benefit of the doubt to Arrow as they’ve been working closely with him on other releases (Wild Things) and he’d been very hands-on as it seems, recording a new commentary, interviews etc. and approving the masters.

As far as I know the Turbine HDR master of HENRY is not approved, but its also not disapproved. Meaning, it is in a similar boat as Texas Chainsaw Massacre HDR (both Turbine and Second Sight editions) - which also had some noticeable increases in saturation made by the labels compared to the director-approved 2014 4K SDR master, the last release that Tobe Hooper approved before his death.

For HENRY, it seems Arrow took the approach of basically replicating the 2016 4K SDR Dark Sky master in HDR/WCG pretty much verbatim - albeit with Arrow having perceivably lower contrast due to the less deep blacks. IMO the Arrow 4K seems quite redundant and almost unnecessary from a picture quality perspective - the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray already had excellent detail and resolved grain (its a 16mm film) and the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray appears to have superior contrast compared to the Arrow 4K.

On the other hand, Turbine after doing the TCM project looked at Henry and basically said "let's do that same process again," so instead of simply duplicating the 2016 4K SDR master they color corrected it to the extent that it still looks in the ballpark of the original but overall has less faded colors (same deal as TCM 4k). It's also worth noting that unlike the Arrow 4K, the Turbine 4K has black levels that are on-par with the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray, increasing the overall image contrast - this is because Turbine attempted to overall match the contrast of their grade to the 2016 Dark Sky 4K SDR unlike Arrow.

I personally compared the 2016 Dark Sky Blu-ray (which is excellent and IMO truly not even necessary to upgrade TBH) to the Turbine 4K and felt that the Turbine presented things such as the color of blood during the murder scenes far more convincingly - while the Dark Sky didn't look terrible its desaturated nature made the blood look obviously fake, while the Turbine looked grisly and realistic in those scenes which was much more impactful as a viewing experience. While it is not the perfect grade, for the majority of the film, the Turbine looked more "correct" from a color-correction perspective than the Dark Sky 2016 which the Arrow mimics. Still, I know some prefer the assurance of director approval, though it seems that most elected to upgrade to TCM 4K despite all of the 4K releases being substantially different in color and saturation from the director-approved 2014 4K master - I would say the differences with TCM are greater than Turbine's HENRY tweaks are.

My own take from a PQ perspective, the Turbine 4K is superior to the Arrow 4K for a couple reasons - first, the black levels/contrast issue, IMO the Arrow 4K actually looks worse than the 2016 Blu-ray here and the Turbine 4K does not suffer from this issue. Second, the Turbine 4K at least makes an attempt at an improved presentation vs the 2016 Blu-ray. Whether it is right, wrong, in the middle, approved, disapproved, or partially approved, the Turbine 4K offers a more color-corrected image than the Arrow 4K offers. If one doesn't like the color corrected image of the Turbine 4K for whatever reason, IMO then the fallback would be the Dark Sky 2016 director-approved Blu-ray for the superior contrast instead of the Arrow 4K.

Very much appreciate your perspective and insights. I wish I’d known this before going with the Arrow UHD. This is my first edition of the film and while viewing it, I was consistently pleased with the image but obviously didn’t have any reference to prior experiences with the film.

[AxeYou]

Thanks for clarifying, Ruined! Very informative.

[Ruined]

Very much appreciate your perspective and insights. I wish I’d known this before going with the Arrow UHD. This is my first edition of the film and while viewing it, I was consistently pleased with the image but obviously didn’t have any reference to prior experiences with the film.

A lot of this is personal preference, even when it comes to "director approved" stuff. Like, the T2 4K UHD was "director approved" but a whole lot of people prefer the previous Blu-ray which does not have the latest director approved transfer because it has so much less DNR.

What I'd recommend, if you are interested in seeing the Turbine release, which is again the one I'd go for, simply buy it and watch it for yourself. If you get either the limited turbine or the limited arrow, whichever one you like you will easily be able to recoup your money because of the limited nature or even make a profit on either one. Even if you got a standard release, Arrow/Turbine stuff holds its value fairly well over time.

So while its a bit more of a hassle, there isn't much risk to buying both, compare for yourself, then sell the one you like less.

[Ruined]

Thanks for clarifying, Ruined! Very informative.

No prob, yeah, personally if this was my list I'd put the Turbine in the "Appreciable/Solid upgrades compared to the most recent Blu-Rays" list next to the Arrow and put in parentheses the different approaches they took, maybe also a footnote of the increased black floor of the Arrow vs the 2016 Blu-ray and Turbine 4K.

[kniselyb]

Hello everyone I enjoy reading this thread helped me pick out 4k UHD discs. There are a few that are not mentioned in the lists

What is everyone's opinion on Criterion's The Rules of the game and Curzons The double life of Veronique? Can we add these to the lists as either reference or solid upgrade?

[Finch]

Sleepy Hollow 4k vs US BD

It looks better than the Blu-Ray but Paramount's transfer is inconsistent. Some shots look fine, others display a lot of DNR.

Time Bandits (Arrow) (if compared to their own BD) better grain on the Arrow vs the Criterion

NeilZ on the other forum says the grain looks worse in HDR10 on the CC; it's a closer call in DV. The Arrow also gets a mention in the superior import section.

Swamp Thing (MVD) Chris's review

[therewillbeblus]

I know the answer is probably more "different" than "better" but I'm curious what extras people prefer between the Arrow and Criterion Time Bandits, assuming both ported over features from their existing blus

[swo17]

What is everyone's opinion on Criterion's The Rules of the game and Curzons The double life of Veronique? Can we add these to the lists as either reference or solid upgrade?

CC's Rules of the Game UHD is not appreciably better than BFI's Blu-ray. Curzon's Veronique UHD is worth importing