UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading

[5meohd]

Thank you for sharing that.

[5meohd]

Svet got his copy of The Others in.

"While I am not ready to declare that it is the most impressive 4K makeover I have seen done and presented on 4K Blu-ray to date, it is definitely one of the top five."

But, there is also a decent proposition in that other forum about REC2020 -> REC709 conversion errors. I asked there, but I'll ask here too. Are those a major nuisance? Are they applicable to all TV sets, or just cost-produced models?

Cheers!

[mhofmann]

I'm looking at the screenshots of The Trial (Criterion 4K UHD) here and perceive severe lack of detail (grain) and encoding artifacts in many of the shadows. Is this something that might have been caused by the capturing process or is this a faithful representation of the disc? If the latter, I would disagree with Chris's video assessment. At least the text very much contradicts what I perceive in the screenshots.

[cdnchris]

Is this something that might have been caused by the capturing process or is this a faithful representation of the disc?

There should be a note indicating they're PNG files converted to JPGs and should be used as a basic reference (I would not use them to zoom in on them 400x). It's not showing, I see, so I'll have to go back and paste it into the text.

encoding artifacts in many of the shadows

This is my fault. Yes, there is macroblocking, but I didn't notice while watching, seeing it in some screen captures after the fact. In an early draft I mentioned this but I it got removed during one of my edits. I've gotten into the habit of editing and re-editing as I had been getting incredibly sloppy (more than usual), and this may be a sign I'm over-doing it as that mention (it was a short sentence) ended up being removed, and I apologize for that. In the grand scheme of things, though, it didn't stick out while watching the film (and I had stressed this), but if you're sensitive to that then yes it would have been worth noting. I've always tried to mention where things are noticeable in grabs but may not really translate to the screen, at least for me. At any rate, I'll fix that later today.

These are the original PNG files for a couple of obvious captures: trial1.png, trial2.png

perceive severe lack of detail (grain)

Maybe some slight filtering (low-pass) was done but I can't agree that there is a "severe" lack of detail. So we'll differ on that.

[therewillbeblus]

The Trial is an odd case of Criterion leaving out Studiocanal’s HDR10 and Dolby Vision grades. Svet of Blu-ray.com noticed macroblocking and less than ideal shadow definition on the CC, which could have obviously been avoided if they’d put more love and care into encodes. The extras sound excellent though with the Joseph McBride commentary. I have the UK SC and am, despite minor issues, pleased with it and plan to pick up the Criterion BD solely for the extras.

Interesting, I thought most of us were putting off the SC 4K because it was getting blasted. If it's noticeably better-looking I'd rather spring for that, but it still seems a bit unclear how noticeable the differences between the Crit and SC are

[nicolas]

The Trial is an odd case of Criterion leaving out Studiocanal’s HDR10 and Dolby Vision grades. Svet of Blu-ray.com noticed macroblocking and less than ideal shadow definition on the CC, which could have obviously been avoided if they’d put more love and care into encodes. The extras sound excellent though with the Joseph McBride commentary. I have the UK SC and am, despite minor issues, pleased with it and plan to pick up the Criterion BD solely for the extras.

Interesting, I thought most of us were putting off the SC 4K because it was getting blasted. If it's noticeably better-looking I'd rather spring for that, but it still seems a bit unclear how noticeable the differences between the Crit and SC are

The SC has its issues in the bright highlights and small areas around it, even in Dolby Vision but I otherwise like the fine grain exposure and amount of overall detail I’m not sure I’d get from Criterion due to the low-pass filter. Other than that, I’m suspicious of the elevated black levels I’m seeing on the Criterion caps. These look superb in DV on the SC. There’s also plenty of grain in the shadows or other darker areas like suits.

All in all, I’d absolutely take the SC for the video presentation and the Criterion for more extras especially if you’re a fan of the film.

[AxeYou]

I can take a few FEL screen caps of the SC UHD this weekend if people are interested. (The ones on CAH are HDR10 BL only, before they started taking FEL caps.) They will be useful to compare detail level against the CC SDR presentation, but not color/contrast/brightness.

[nicolas]

I can take a few FEL screen caps of the SC UHD this weekend if people are interested. (The ones on CAH are HDR10 BL only, before they started taking FEL caps.) They will be useful to compare detail level against the CC SDR presentation, but not color/contrast/brightness.

That would be wonderful! Looking forward to them.

[therewillbeblus]

Thank you both! I'm admittedly out of my element in this technical dept, but I really appreciate your and other new knowledgeable voices chiming in as reliable guides in this thread, in addition to the other long-term reliables

[Finch]

Touch of Evil (MoC) wins over the Kino thanks to Fidelity in Motion encode and the 100 page book.

EDIT: hold on to the MoC BD if you want to watch the film in the 1.33:1 ratio.

[AxeYou]

I can take a few FEL screen caps of the SC UHD this weekend if people are interested. (The ones on CAH are HDR10 BL only, before they started taking FEL caps.) They will be useful to compare detail level against the CC SDR presentation, but not color/contrast/brightness.

The Trial, SC UHD FEL vs CC UHD SDR (the two png caps Chris posted earlier): https://slow.pics/c/HfJAQAi6
The Trial, SC UHD FEL vs SC BL (a few caps from CAH): https://slow.pics/c/m3nEK3ki

EDIT: SC FEL vs BL (same tonemapping settings for easier comparison): https://slow.pics/c/YYECBu1s

SC UHD's HDR/DV grading below. ~300 nits max except the restoration title card, which was graded to 10K nits.

SpoilerShow

My initial observations:
- Highlights on SC look really ugly. Look at Welles' forehead in the second cap (SC vs CC). I may prefer the CC.
- SC also has other encoding anomalies, e.g. in motion around cap #12 from CAH you can see macroblocked grain swirling in the sky between the buildings.
- FEL doesn't appear to fix any artifacts on SC. I double checked on my player and cap #20 from CAH really does look like a macroblocked mess even in FEL.*

* This is the second case of FEL not helping a botched BL I've encountered recently, the other being Shout's The Deer Hunter. Not sure why FEL (partially) fixes some titles like Total Recall, but not others. Maybe it comes down to specific EL encoding settings each authoring house picks.

[nicolas]

I can take a few FEL screen caps of the SC UHD this weekend if people are interested. (The ones on CAH are HDR10 BL only, before they started taking FEL caps.) They will be useful to compare detail level against the CC SDR presentation, but not color/contrast/brightness.

The Trial, SC UHD FEL vs CC UHD SDR (the two png caps Chris posted earlier): https://slow.pics/c/HfJAQAi6
The Trial, SC UHD FEL vs SC BL (a few caps from CAH): https://slow.pics/c/m3nEK3ki

EDIT: SC FEL vs BL (same tonemapping settings for easier comparison): https://slow.pics/c/YYECBu1s

SC UHD's HDR/DV grading below. ~300 nits max except the restoration title card, which was graded to 10K nits.

SpoilerShow

My initial observations:
- Highlights on SC look really ugly. Look at Welles' forehead in the second cap (SC vs CC). I may prefer the CC.
- SC also has other encoding anomalies, e.g. in motion around cap #12 from CAH you can see macroblocked grain swirling in the sky between the buildings.
- FEL doesn't appear to fix any artifacts on SC. I double checked on my player and cap #20 from CAH really does look like a macroblocked mess even in FEL.*

* This is the second case of FEL not helping a botched BL I've encountered recently, the other being Shout's The Deer Hunter. Not sure why FEL (partially) fixes some titles like Total Recall, but not others. Maybe it comes down to specific EL encoding settings each authoring house picks.

Thanks so much! If the contrast differences from the SDR CC to the DV SC are correct, the raised blacks on the CC would be another problem. As the caps show, SC’s black levels are excellent and correct.
Despite the encoding issues on the SC, I still prefer that presentation as the grain is finer and less filtered. The downside is the occasional blocking but as with Curzon and some of our other usual encoding suspects, I’ll take that over a consistently filtered appearance.

[M-A]

Thanks so much! If the contrast differences from the SDR CC to the DV SC are correct, the raised blacks on the CC would be another problem. As the caps show, SC’s black levels are excellent and correct.
Despite the encoding issues on the SC, I still prefer that presentation as the grain is finer and less filtered. The downside is the occasional blocking but as with Curzon and some of our other usual encoding suspects, I’ll take that over a consistently filtered appearance.

I think there is something wrong with Chris' caps regarding the black level. Svet's captures don't show the same issue at all.

[cdnchris]

I think there is something wrong with Chris' caps regarding the black level. Svet's captures don't show the same issue at all.

It's possible, though I'm using the same method I've used for every other 4K, and as far as I can see, the black levels look fine in others. Unless someone can tell me differently. And I'd appreciate it since I at least want to make sure I capture black levels and gray scale and such as accurately as I can.

[AxeYou]

Despite the encoding issues on the SC, I still prefer that presentation as the grain is finer and less filtered. The downside is the occasional blocking but as with Curzon and some of our other usual encoding suspects, I’ll take that over a consistently filtered appearance.

I envy your tolerance of the occasional macroblocking : )

Relatedly: I finally picked up Curzon's Three Colours UHD last month. Unfortunately, I found myself very sensitive to the large patches of macroblocked highlights in Red. Chroma noise on that disc is an issue as well. It all manifests very distractingly for me in people's foreheads, where there're simultaneously macroblocks and chroma noise buzzing around. Earlier when going by the caps I would definitely pick Curzon, but in motion I can entertain the filtered Criterion (still some macroblocking but less so). Tough call for these b/w filtering and artifacts. I think it'll be highly subjective.

I think there is something wrong with Chris' caps regarding the black level. Svet's captures don't show the same issue at all.

It's possible, though I'm using the same method I've used for every other 4K, and as far as I can see, the black levels look fine in others. Unless someone can tell me differently. And I'd appreciate it since I at least want to make sure I capture black levels and gray scale and such as accurately as I can.

Hmm it does look like something is wrong. Even the black bars appear grey next to the SC caps. I'm not sure what could cause it, but how are these captured, Chris?

[cdnchris]

Hmm it does look like something is wrong. Even the black bars appear grey next to the SC caps. I'm not sure what could cause it, but how are these captured, Chris?

I didn't notice it before, but yes bars tipped it off when I looked at them again, more so when looking closer on my phone.

When trying to find ways to capture 4K discs I settled on using MPlayer Classic desktop app (and manually going through and capturing them) as it seemed to work best (I use MPlayer for Blu-rays as well, though I have written up a batch script to automate it). Black levels, contrast, and grayscale were some of the key things I checked (along with a few other factors like compression, sharpening, etc.) so I'm not happy if something changed here.

I haven't changed a thing since I started, so just to make sure I've uploaded a few PNGs of older ones I've used. And though it shouldn't matter since I'm just trying to capture the base presentation, I'm including captures from black and white titles with HDR, Dolby Vision, or no HDR in case there's something causing issues I wasn't aware of:

The Seventh Seal (No HDR)
Breathless (Dolby Vision)
Raging Bull (HDR10)

These ones look fine, including on my phone, so I'm now not sure if a setting was inadvertently changed or if that is just how the disc looks. If it's the disc I think it should be obvious on an OLED television but I can't say it stood out.

When I get a chance I'm going to try to take one from one of those titles again to double-check, but it won't be for a while.

EDIT: I think it's the disc. I had Princess Bride and Carlito's Way just sitting there so I took a random grab from each and the black levels look fine (I think):

Carlito's Way
Princess Bride

But then Moonage Daydream looks a little off:

Moonage Daydream

That one is debatable, though, since it's all archival material and could be in the master if it's something done by the filmmakers (giving the benefit of the doubt).

But again, it doesn't stick out on a television and ultimately looks fine. I assume they would be adjusting contrast for SDR titles, but it shouldn't have impacted the borders.

[kniselyb]

Touch of Evil (MoC) wins over the Kino thanks to Fidelity in Motion encode and the 100 page book.

EDIT: hold on to the MoC BD if you want to watch the film in the 1.33:1 ratio.

I know FIM has a great reputation but isn't it a little early to say Touch of Evil (MOC) is better than Kino? Kino has 3 UHD discs and MOC has 2 and don't we have to compare the encodes to jump to that conclusion? The Kino transfer is pretty excellent not sure how this can be topped even by FIM

[kniselyb]

Thanks so much! If the contrast differences from the SDR CC to the DV SC are correct, the raised blacks on the CC would be another problem. As the caps show, SC’s black levels are excellent and correct.
Despite the encoding issues on the SC, I still prefer that presentation as the grain is finer and less filtered. The downside is the occasional blocking but as with Curzon and some of our other usual encoding suspects, I’ll take that over a consistently filtered appearance.

I think there is something wrong with Chris' caps regarding the black level. Svet's captures don't show the same issue at all.

Is it safe to take The Trial (SC) off the disappointing column and say its better than Criterion except for the extras?

[kniselyb]

Despite the encoding issues on the SC, I still prefer that presentation as the grain is finer and less filtered. The downside is the occasional blocking but as with Curzon and some of our other usual encoding suspects, I’ll take that over a consistently filtered appearance.

I envy your tolerance of the occasional macroblocking : )

Relatedly: I finally picked up Curzon's Three Colours UHD last month. Unfortunately, I found myself very sensitive to the large patches of macroblocked highlights in Red. Chroma noise on that disc is an issue as well. It all manifests very distractingly for me in people's foreheads, where there're simultaneously macroblocks and chroma noise buzzing around. Earlier when going by the caps I would definitely pick Curzon, but in motion I can entertain the filtered Criterion (still some macroblocking but less so). Tough call for these b/w filtering and artifacts. I think it'll be highly subjective.

I think there is something wrong with Chris' caps regarding the black level. Svet's captures don't show the same issue at all.

It's possible, though I'm using the same method I've used for every other 4K, and as far as I can see, the black levels look fine in others. Unless someone can tell me differently. And I'd appreciate it since I at least want to make sure I capture black levels and gray scale and such as accurately as I can.

Hmm it does look like something is wrong. Even the black bars appear grey next to the SC caps. I'm not sure what could cause it, but how are these captured, Chris?

I almost double dipped on the Curzon even though I own the Criterion Three Colors. Is it safe to say the Criterion is the one to keep then and I should not waste my money on the Curzon?

[nicolas]

Despite the encoding issues on the SC, I still prefer that presentation as the grain is finer and less filtered. The downside is the occasional blocking but as with Curzon and some of our other usual encoding suspects, I’ll take that over a consistently filtered appearance.

I envy your tolerance of the occasional macroblocking : )

Relatedly: I finally picked up Curzon's Three Colours UHD last month. Unfortunately, I found myself very sensitive to the large patches of macroblocked highlights in Red. Chroma noise on that disc is an issue as well. It all manifests very distractingly for me in people's foreheads, where there're simultaneously macroblocks and chroma noise buzzing around. Earlier when going by the caps I would definitely pick Curzon, but in motion I can entertain the filtered Criterion (still some macroblocking but less so). Tough call for these b/w filtering and artifacts. I think it'll be highly subjective.

It's possible, though I'm using the same method I've used for every other 4K, and as far as I can see, the black levels look fine in others. Unless someone can tell me differently. And I'd appreciate it since I at least want to make sure I capture black levels and gray scale and such as accurately as I can.

Hmm it does look like something is wrong. Even the black bars appear grey next to the SC caps. I'm not sure what could cause it, but how are these captured, Chris?

I almost double dipped on the Curzon even though I own the Criterion Three Colors. Is it safe to say the Criterion is the one to keep then and I should not waste my money on the Curzon?

In my opinion the Curzon box is far from a waste of money, although not perfect in itself. The Criterion version, for my taste, is ridiculously filtered to an unbearable degree. AxeYou described what’s wrong and I agree with all of it. In the end it comes down to individual taste. For myself, there’s no way on earth I’m going back to the Criterion UHDs despite the issues on the Curzon.

[AxeYou]

It’s been mentioned upthread: You also get the newly restored Kieślowski shorts on Curzon’s Three Colours set (not available anywhere else), which makes it very much worth it despite their main features’ encoding flaws.

[AxeYou]

The Seventh Seal (No HDR)
Breathless (Dolby Vision)
Raging Bull (HDR10)
Carlito's Way
Princess Bride
Moonage Daydream
These are the original PNG files for a couple of obvious captures: trial1.png, trial2.png

I checked these black borders with the built-in Digital Color Meter app on my Mac:
- The Seventh Seal, Breathless, Raging Bull report RGB(0,0,0), i.e. pure black.
- Carlito's Way, Princess Bride: RGB(9,9,9)
- Moonage Daydream, The Trial: RGB(17,17,17)

In comparison:
- Svet's 1080p-downscaled 4K cap from The Trial: RGB(0,0,0)
- CAH cap of Universal's Carlito's Way 4K (should be same master as Arrow): RGB(0,0,0)

[cdnchris]

OK, those are the same values I have but wasn't sure how dependable that was, so thanks for confirming.

Looking at everything I've taken since Swamp Thing (outside of The Trial) the blacks are at about RGB(8,8,8) or so, where all the random ones I checked from before that disc are pure blacks (0,0,0). Now I'm trying to figure out what could have changed...

Frustratingly, my blu-ray grabs for The Trial and La Bamba are all pure blacks.

[cdnchris]

My GPU had an update performed around the time everything started to go off, so I wondered if some setting was altered that could have impacted my captures, maybe. It was the only thing that stood out. After some adjustments, I took another capture, and the black bars are RGB(0,0,0) if my tool is correct, though I'm still not 100% sure about it overall: trial1.png (I accidentally overwrote one I already had up there)

Sorry to spam this thread, this has just been frustrating me.

[Finch]

A minor flaw was picked up by spacemandoug on BR regarding Shout's Natural Born Killers 4k:

on the altered version on the old BD, whenever the Rodney King clip plays at about the 1:54:55 timecode (director's cut) you could hear the beginning of the altered music drum cue build up until the actual montage happens

on the 5.1 tracks of both cuts, that build up for the altered cue is unfortunately left in before cutting to the actual montage and Burn plays, my guess is Shout simply recycled the same 5.1 tracks as the Warner BDs and spliced in Burn in that specific portion and forgot to accommodate for the previous few seconds

what's good though is again for both cuts, the 2.0 tracks do not have this issue, so really all you'd have to do to avoid this issue is watch the movie (either cut) with the 2.0 track

Outside of that though, the disc is getting great feedback. Ditto their My Bloody Valentine 4k, and Indicator's Jean Rollin 4ks, especially The Night of The Hunted.