UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[nicolas]

Should Rio Bravo perhaps be downgraded to a solid upgrade? There were murmurings on Blu-ray.com about it having some issues.

I think you’re referring to my post in the Boogie Nights 4K thread when I mentioned some of Warner’s recent UHDs with issues.
This is the Rio Bravo thread and the discussion about the issues: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... 09&page=16

[jheez]

I don't think Rio Bravo looks that good to be honest. It's fine/acceptable (best it's ever looked), but has issues. Like a lot of the very old catalog (pre-70s?) WB titles has upgraded, I don't think they did a new scan. I think it's the same scan from the very ancient blu-ray. It doesn't look fully resolved. The grain looks managed and weird. The grain is slow moving and looks stuck most of the time. Feels like a missed opportunity for such a great film, but generally looks ok.

[andyli]

Have you checked screenshot comparison like those on caps-a-holic? Quite contrary to what you suggested, Warner’s deep catalogue UHDs are almost all from newer scans, including those that already have good restorations, such as Singin’ in the Rain and Rebel Without a Cause. I’m pretty sure this is a studio policy and when they release The Searchers and NxNW this year, they won’t be using pre-existing masters either.

[mhofmann]

Should Rio Bravo perhaps be downgraded to a solid upgrade? There were murmurings on Blu-ray.com about it having some issues.

(...)
This is the Rio Bravo thread and the discussion about the issues: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... 09&page=16

I contributed to the discussion over there. While I think there are clear traces of grain management in the Rio Bravo 4K master, I still think it is a very significant upgrade from the old Blu-ray. I'm also pretty sure this is based on a new scan.

[hearthesilence]

FWIW, Torn Curtain on the new Hitchcock set looks pretty disappointing, so much the old Blu-ray may be preferable. At least Frenzy, The Man Who Knew Too Much (the remake of course) and Rope look like solid upgrades.

[RitrovataBlue]

Have you checked screenshot comparison like those on caps-a-holic? Quite contrary to what you suggested, Warner’s deep catalogue UHDs are almost all from newer scans, including those that already have good restorations, such as Singin’ in the Rain and Rebel Without a Cause. I’m pretty sure this is a studio policy and when they release The Searchers and NxNW this year, they won’t be using pre-existing masters either.

To my eyes, at least, Rebel Without a Cause appears to be sourced from the same scan as the 2013 blu-ray. There are little to no HDR highlights, color is muted, and there is little apparent increase in detail over the blu. After watching Singin' in the Rain, with its glorious, vibrant new HDR scan, Rebel was a terrible disappointment. To me, Rebel looks like an SDR scan in an HDR container. I haven't seen Rio Bravo's UHD yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was given the same treatment.

[hearthesilence]

To be fair, the Blu-ray for Rebel without a Cause was really good. In a lot of ways it matched my experiences of seeing it projected in 35mm (possibly three times with several years in between). Even when projected from an excellent film print, the detail never looked all that sharp to me - it was one of the first CinemaScope films I ever saw projected and I could immediately see the difference, namely the subtle "mumps" effect on not just faces but even stuff like film grain where the 'stretching' kind of enlarged it. I imagine this has a softening effect too since you're spreading out the visual information captured on the medium.

I've also seen Singin' in the Rain projected, and it's a night and day difference - easily the most memorable experience I've had in a theater. (At Lincoln Center, from an archival print on July 4th weekend, 2009!) I'm not sure you can compare the two - I don't think Rebel without a Cause is ever going to look "as good" as Singin' in the Rain.

[therewillbeblus]

FWIW, Torn Curtain on the new Hitchcock set looks pretty disappointing, so much the old Blu-ray may be preferable. At least Frenzy, The Man Who Knew Too Much (the remake of course) and Rope look like solid upgrades.

That sucks, but there was no way I was gonna hold onto the masterpiece collection for that one

[jheez]

I think what WB is doing with some of their catalog 4ks is going back to old raw scans and making a new 4k master from those old scans. I'm not saying they're using the same old masters on any of their discs that I'm aware of. We know for certain this is what they did on Casablanca.

If the (presumable) "ultra-seller", prestige catalog title Casablanca can't get a new scan, it makes me wonder if this is part of the problem with the WB 4ks that presumably sell less. The other factor is the grain management, which I believe to also be a problem even on their highly rated WAC titles. To be fair, at the end of the day, all the WB 4k catalog titles still look quite a bit better than their blu-ray counterparts and I've been satisfied enough with the upgrades.

[nicolas]

FWIW, Torn Curtain on the new Hitchcock set looks pretty disappointing, so much the old Blu-ray may be preferable. At least Frenzy, The Man Who Knew Too Much (the remake of course) and Rope look like solid upgrades.

That sucks, but there was no way I was gonna hold onto the masterpiece collection for that one

I wouldn’t say it’s disappointing in the usual ways but the source appears to be so limited that barely, if any perceptible resolution above HD is on the negative. Sure, Universal could have filtered it away in order to better encode the film for the BD-66 they used (and to make room for bonus) but I believe it’s mainly a byproduct of the source. Hitchcock’s extensive use of rear projection and opticals doesn’t help either - much to the contrary, they look abysmal in the film and never appeared worse than in HD/4K. Torn Curtain wouldn’t have needed an UHD but it’s Hitchcock and they can now sell a new complete collection. I don’t regret my purchase.

[nicolas]

I think what WB is doing with some of their catalog 4ks is going back to old raw scans and making a new 4k master from those old scans. I'm not saying they're using the same old masters on any of their discs that I'm aware of. We know for certain this is what they did on Casablanca.

If the (presumable) "ultra-seller", prestige catalog title Casablanca can't get a new scan, it makes me wonder if this is part of the problem with the WB 4ks that presumably sell less. The other factor is the grain management, which I believe to also be a problem even on their highly rated WAC titles. To be fair, at the end of the day, all the WB 4k catalog titles still look quite a bit better than their blu-ray counterparts and I've been satisfied enough with the upgrades.

Casablanca did get a new 4K 16-bit scan for the UHD. Source Bill Hunt: “The film was previously scanned and remastered in 4K for its 70th Anniversary appearance on Blu-ray Disc in 2012, but for this Ultra HD release Warner Bros. Motion Picture Imaging has completed a brand new 16-bit 4K scan and frame-by-frame digital remastering of the best-surviving nitrate film elements. The image was then carefully graded for High Dynamic Range (HDR10 alone is available on this disc) to enhance contrast and detail”

Their films getting new scans for UHD is the case for most of the films, if it weren’t the case we’d have seen UHDs of their 8K or 4K-scanned VistaVision films much earlier for example. However these old scans are SDR and surely the demand at the company is HDR (for streaming etc.). They could produce SDR in a HDR container but apparently that’s not their goal - thankfully. What stood in the way until last year for Warmer was the lack of a modern, likely 16-bit scanner for large-format film, which was confirmed somewhere on the other forum. Now with The Searchers and North by Northwest premiering explicitly as new restorations, I think this is a good confirmation that the vast majority of what we’re getting from them is indeed brand new.

[beamish14]

I’m seeing a Technicolor print of Giant tonight, and I’m anxious to compare it to the 4K. A release that has always looked incredibly “off” on home video formats

[jheez]

George Feltenstein said on The Extras podcast that Casablanca used the same scan that sourced the previous blu-ray, but they made a new HDR master from the scan. In a separate podcast, he gave information on Singin' in the Rain, but I can't recall what was done.

[andyli]

George Feltenstein said on The Extras podcast that Casablanca used the same scan that sourced the previous blu-ray, but they made a new HDR master from the scan. In a separate podcast, he gave information on Singin' in the Rain, but I can't recall what was done.

Well, this small discrepancy in description probably arises from the different understanding of what constitutes a new scan. I observed the screenshot comparison on caps-a-holic for Casablanca, and it appears to me that either they performed a slightly different scan on the same restored element or adjusted the framing on the original scan digitally, hence the subtle difference in framing. Anyway, Casablanca is quite different in that it already receives a competent 4k restoration in 2012. Rio Bravo only has an 2007 blu-ray, using a then-new scan which could not have been 4k hdr. There’s no way in the world even an independent label deems that sufficient for a 2023 UHD, let alone Warner. This is therefore a case of upgrading from a rather mediocre early HD master with a brand new 4k scan like any of the countless examples from other studios and Warner themselves: a significant uptick in quality and presentation.

[Finch]

Shifted Rebel Without A Cause and Rio Bravo to Solid Upgrades. Thank you everyone for chiming in and helping me to fine tune this list.

[Finch]

Regular edition of Pathe's Le Samourai coming in late April as per Amazon France

[tenia]

The Man from Nowhere and The Wailing in 4K by Well Go USA are both upscaled from their 2K DI’s. These are no regular 2K DI’s on UHD like we see from major studios as Well Go likely used AI here.

This sounds concerning and it’s not flawless but it’s far from a James Cameron disaster and both films look significantly better in 4K than on the old BD’s, which Well Go thankfully included.

I'm already tired of this crap, as the caps I saw from both discs display the same intrusive AI-look than on Titanic (weird unnatural look, with a way-too-smooth look but also too detailed for this smooth look, along with AI weirdness).

You'd think the industry has already a big enough share of "trying-and-erroring new digital tools like this only to find out it's not a good idea at all", but nope, every time, they have to play with the brand new shiny toy instead of leaving those movies alone. Ugh.

[nicolas]

The Man from Nowhere and The Wailing in 4K by Well Go USA are both upscaled from their 2K DI’s. These are no regular 2K DI’s on UHD like we see from major studios as Well Go likely used AI here.

This sounds concerning and it’s not flawless but it’s far from a James Cameron disaster and both films look significantly better in 4K than on the old BD’s, which Well Go thankfully included.

I'm already tired of this crap, as the caps I saw from both discs display the same intrusive AI-look than on Titanic (weird unnatural look, with a way-too-smooth look but also too detailed for this smooth look, along with AI weirdness).

You'd think the industry has already a big enough share of "trying-and-erroring new digital tools like this only to find out it's not a good idea at all", but nope, every time, they have to play with the brand new shiny toy instead of leaving those movies alone. Ugh.

It’s really disappointing but once they see that sales are superb (particularly at this price point - you can get both UHDs combined for less than one new Vinegar Syndrome release) they could definitely say “Hey, why don’t we upgrade more of our catalogue?”. They won’t feel hound by DI limitations as the AI takes care of the rest.

The annoying thing is that in the case of The Wailing and Man from Nowhere both of their original BDs have issues that make me prefer the look of the UHDs. From what I read this is the same for others as well but it isn’t an ideal scenario. Combine that with the admittedly attractive price point and it’s tempting to just go with it. For now this AI use is still too niche to be a bigger problem but once the major studios use these tools for remastering films of directors who are no longer with us instead of properly restoring them as always, then they’ll likely feel more pushback by general viewers as well. Cameron is Cameron - unless someone’d storm his Lightstrom offices and put a gun to his head, nothing would happen. I’m more afraid that once the process gets cheaper these studios experiment with catalogue titles.

[tenia]

It’s really disappointing but once they see that sales are superb, they could definitely say “Hey, why don’t we upgrade more of our catalogue?”. They won’t feel hound by DI limitations as the AI takes care of the rest. The annoying thing is that in the case of The Wailing and Man from Nowhere both of their original BDs have issues that make me prefer the look of the UHDs. From what I read this is the same for others as well but it isn’t an ideal scenario.

Part of it HAS to do with how the public reacts to it, and it'd be wonderful if people were to vote with their wallets and cut short any viability for such shenanigans. But then, of course, it's not what's happening (especially when there's either no previous BD or a vastly perfectible one), even less so when knowledgeable viewers are fine with it or even find excuses for it.

Combine that with the admittedly attractive price point and it’s tempting to just go with it. For now this AI use is still too niche to be a bigger problem but once the major studios use these tools for remastering films of directors who are no longer with us instead of properly restoring them as always, then they’ll likely feel more pushback by general viewers as well. Cameron is Cameron - unless someone’d storm his Lightstrom offices and put a gun to his head, nothing would happen. I’m more afraid that once the process gets cheaper these studios experiment with catalogue titles.

My issue is more of a "haven't we learnt our lesson already ?" thing. AI was bound to be used this way, I'm just frustated it ended being that predictable. And while it remains indeed extremely marginal, it does mean that studios and labels and rightholders ARE toying with those in a way-more-blanket-y manner than they should (unlike, say, what was done on Mission Cléopatre, where Topaz AI was used for a total of 2 minutes in order to better blend specific CG effects which were performed at a much lower rez than the restoration workflow).

Stuff like "hey, why not upscaling this way and be done with it ?" shouldn't happen. We knew how to upscale to 4K before : why not just, you know, keeping it simple and doing it this way instead (and do like what Second Sight did with The Babadook or The Guest) ? Otherwise : how about not trying to release UHDs of movies that just aren't good candidates for it ?

And yes, it does make it look like the Pandora's Box has been open, so I worry if it might get more widely used : my first encounter with such methods were in 2020 with Turbine's Crying Freeman UHD and then in 2021 with their An American Werewolf in London's UHD. So that was 2 in 2 years. And now, in less than 12 months : Picnic at Hanging Rock, Titanic-Abyss-Aliens-True Lies, The Wailing and The Man From Nowhere.

[Finch]

Tremors 2 Aftershocks (Arrow)

caps

[nicolas]

The Dead Zone by Shout is another home-run. I’m not sure how much of an upgrade it is from older BDs (never had one) but this is an extraordinary disc and can’t imagine any BD being close.

[Finch]

samlop10 on Criterion's Blood Simple 4k

[nicolas]

samlop10 on Criterion's Blood Simple 4k

Just wanted to post the same link
But seriously, this is a huge disappointment after a few really good Criterion encodes. I thought they might have learned something from Walkabout but this confirms it’s just the same again. Unbelievable. I’m glad I haven’t sold my BD yet. Hopefully SC release a UK version.

[kekid]

samlop10 on Criterion's Blood Simple 4k

Just wanted to post the same link
But seriously, this is a huge disappointment after a few really good Criterion encodes. I thought they might have learned something from Walkabout but this confirms it’s just the same again. Unbelievable. I’m glad I haven’t sold my BD yet. Hopefully SC release a UK version.

Is the Blu Ray disc that comes with the 4K same as the previous Blu Ray or is it different?

[Finch]

Same BD. Samlop10 confirmed that Dolby Vision playback makes no appreciable difference.