1224 Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid

[Mr Sausage]

Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia could be described as pitiless, but Pat Garret and Billy the Kid is elegiac. It's like Once Upon a Time in the West that way.

[DeprongMori]

So unless imdb is lying, Rudy Wurlitzer, who is still alive, will not be involved with this release in any way. And he's been extensively involved with two past Criterion releases! Is there some sort of problem he has with Peckinpah or his own work on the film, or am i just feeling the steely chill of austerity Criterion? Or should I just shut the fuck up and get over myself? Nevermind, complaining is a legitimate use of this forum! It has to be!

According to Alex Cox:

Rudy wrote a scathing introduction to the paperback edition of the screenplay. Copies are hard to come by now, and very expensive. His descriptions of Peckinpah ditching his script, and reverting to scenes from his early episodic TV westerns, like The Rifleman and Zane Grey Theater, are most amusing. But, over time, I think he’s come to appreciate the finished film.

My copy of the paperback with Wurlitzer’s foreword is some 2700 miles away, but my foggy recollection is that he distanced himself from the film because his screenplay was mostly jettisoned in the making.

[Beloved Aunt]

I think I was just reacting to this Letterboxd review:

I love how Pat Garret plays the same function as Robert Ryan does in The Wild Bunch, executor and witness to the end of times, but by blowing it up to such large proportion Peckinpan makes the elegiac quality disappear, it is sad, tired and just horrible,

For me it was precious and a little affected. The brilliant John Coquillon's cinematography was both extremely beautiful and a contributor to this impression. I definitely prefer Straw Dogs, Ride the High Country, and Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia.

[Adam X]

It’s been a long while since I’ve seen this film so I can’t really comment, but I feel like you’re perhaps misreading Furtado’s review; and leaving off the last sentence fragment (“… but he will keep going.”) misrepresents it. He’s talking about the character of Pat Garrett rather than the film there, and Mr. Sausage’s comparison to Leone’s film seems rather apt.

[Beloved Aunt]

No, you're right, my mistake.

[Number Forty-Eight]

The theatrical cut at last! I can't believe it's been missing on home video on all formats except Pan & Scan VHS.

[Orlac]

To clarify, it is that Richard W and he is in the industry.

One of the most pathetic individuals I've ever encountered online - a pretentious mysoginist.

[dwk]

One of the most pathetic individuals I've ever encountered online - a pretentious mysoginist.

Aye, and there is a lengthy thread dedicated to that, but he seems to have some contact with someone who worked on this, so it is a reliable source of information.

[Orlac]

God, they're really arguing about this over at the "other place."

[Lighthouse]

Is there any chance that this Criterion Blu will be region free?

[FrauBlucher]

Zero chance. But they could release a region b in the UK

[DeprongMori]

Zero chance. But they could release a region b in the UK

Would a UK release even be possible without cuts to the “chicken target practice” scene? Previous releases required cuts.

[FrauBlucher]

Hmm. Has Criterion ever edited a film for a UK release?

[Peacock]

Hmm. Has Criterion ever edited a film for a UK release?

Yes, Zatoichi and the Fugitives has a blurry oval applied over a shot of a snake dying.

[yoloswegmaster]

Mike Siegel's response to a user on the other forum who was claiming that Criterion had to be made aware of Mike since they weren't aware of him in the first place by someone else and that they weren't striving for "perfection" on this release:

"Perfection" in the movie business isn't easy to find. Too many people, deals, different goals, tastes, ego's etc. etc. involved (also stupidity). It tore me apart many a times - on the one hand, coming from the Super-8 (!), VHS generation, I embrace almost every Blu-ray of "old" films. On the other hand so many releases could be much better - with a little knowledge and extra-effort. I co-produced so many (35-40) international Peckinpah's the last 17 years regarding supplements, and there's not a single one that couldn't be better. IMPRINT's CROSS OF IRON comes closest (for my money anyway), ARROW's DUNDEE too. One should always aim at 100% and be happy with 95% - 97% . But I also met many labels out there that just don't care really. It's a business.

Whatever the outcome (PAT GARRETT, I didn't see restored versions yet),
I'm very happy about this release.The title (was) on top of our wish lists for so many years - now it finally happened. As with JUNIOR BONNER I tried myself for over 10 years (together with other labels), very frustrating. BONNER (KINO LORBER) happened due to a package deal, a small miracle (licensing from Disney is almost impossible). OSTERMAN is not that important, but I'm so happy I could do the IMPRINT box. It's far from being perfect, but budgets also have a big effect on the final outcome (and sales are going down, as we all know).

I'm truly happy I finally got the chance to make my film on PAT GARRETT (one of my better ones, I think). I was in contact with Criterion about this a long time ago, but so much time passed that we lost contact. Producers changed, secrecy etc. Also they do not work as other labels, rather like a little studio - they produce their own "in the house" supplements and usually do not license from freelancers like me. Hence I'm very very happy this important chapter of my PASSION & POETRY series will see the light of day (or rather darkened screening rooms).
As we know, the studios don't care anymore, so we must be greatful for the fantastic filmhistorical work done by so many indie labels, very often it's not that easy...

As for the film itself, I don't comment much. The different versions are piling up, that's the only thing I know for sure. I remember talking with Seydor about it 24 years ago, we had similar views. And I don't know what really happened in 2005, 'not sure who's to blame. But I'm sure that they didn't have an easy time with the studio. I thought the restoration was quite good but unnecessary flawed (some bad music fading/editing, wrong music cues, sloppy editing when Whitey Hughes character dies, omitting some good stuff like the line I always liked a lot "what you want and what you get are two different things!". I had quite a list here, but I can't find it. Don't have to, unfortunately I'm not involved. I just make documentary films far away from LA in Germany... many thanks to CRITERION for including this one. I'm sure (or rather hope) you're gonna like it.

[Black Hat]

5. The 2005 Special Edition, also known as the Seydor Cut. In the early 2000's, Peckinpah scholar Paul Seydor, who had seen Peckinpah's private cut of the film, attempted to assemble a version of the film that would resemble the "best of both worlds," using the higher-quality footage from the negative and the cut scenes included in the Turner Cut, as well as several scenes included in neither (I think the chicken-catching scene is one of these). Having known Peckinpah personally (Seydor even dated his daughter!), he wanted to create a version that would most accurately resemble Peckinpah's original vision. However, this 115-minute-long cut was rushed and underfunded. As a result, Seydor was able to rearrange the structure of the film to fit Peckinpah's version, but used a number of cuts that had been taken from the theatrical version and had never been meant for release; there were also issues with the audio. Seydor has for almost twenty years expressed a desire to retry this experiment with better funding, finally resulting in...

Is this the version on TCM's rotation?

[Hogfather]

5. The 2005 Special Edition, also known as the Seydor Cut. In the early 2000's, Peckinpah scholar Paul Seydor, who had seen Peckinpah's private cut of the film, attempted to assemble a version of the film that would resemble the "best of both worlds," using the higher-quality footage from the negative and the cut scenes included in the Turner Cut, as well as several scenes included in neither (I think the chicken-catching scene is one of these). Having known Peckinpah personally (Seydor even dated his daughter!), he wanted to create a version that would most accurately resemble Peckinpah's original vision. However, this 115-minute-long cut was rushed and underfunded. As a result, Seydor was able to rearrange the structure of the film to fit Peckinpah's version, but used a number of cuts that had been taken from the theatrical version and had never been meant for release; there were also issues with the audio. Seydor has for almost twenty years expressed a desire to retry this experiment with better funding, finally resulting in...

Is this the version on TCM's rotation?

Yes. Even though Seydor explicitly said he didn't want it to supplant the 1988 Turner cut, the 2005 Special Edition has become the primary version on all streaming services - including, ironically, TCM.

[Orlac]

God, the thread on this at Blu-ray.com is hilarious. So many bannings!

[Hogfather]

Criterion's restoration is being shown later this month at Il Cinema Ritrovata

[dwk]

You know who at you know where has reviewed this and, while I assume it is a mistake, according to his disc breakdown, the 2nd UHD includes the 2k Preview Cut and special features. Which would be the first time Criterion has included anything but a commentary on the UHD.

[FrauBlucher]

The screen caps are beautiful. I can't wait

[Peacock]

Blu-Ray.com

[Tuco]

Dr. Svet: Amusing? PAT GARRETT AND BILLY THE KID amusing? Somebody please explain after I pick up the pieces from my brain exploding...

[Stefan Andersson]

Possible spoiler alert:


Found some comments, in the blur-ray.com thread, about cuts and changes made to the film, a comparison between "final" and "Turner" cuts if I understand the involved discussion correctly:

"peckinpah cameo not shortened. instrumental knocking.

after kip mckinney scene, the shot of them three riding between the houses outta town is cut and the whole subsequent bartender "f-ed up all my wh*res" scene is cut. it goes from garret's "a couple of young ones too" and mckinney stunned stopping at half a sip to the panning scene of three of them riding in the open.

-shot of garrett approaching the house opening the gate and hesitating is cut
-scene with ida garret is inserted (about 2 and a half minutes)
-after jason robards says "comendable notion, sheriff" final preview cuts the shot few seconds earlier and cuts few opening shots (maybe 10-15 sec) of billy coming in fort sumner, before taking h.d.stanton's squeeze.
-"this town's got no hat size nohow" line is inserted earlier over the garrett shot, trimming and shortening subsequent sheriff cullen shot for a second or two.
-few opening shots (maybe 5 sec) of paco leaving are cut, up to alias sharpening the knife.
-opening shot of billy coming at that family's supper with alamosa is trimmed about a second or two.
-after alamosa says "let's get to it" and gets up off the table to leave, whole subsequent part of that man's dialogue about burying his son is cut. it goes straight to alamosa exiting the house.
-wide shot of billy in the distance (about 5 sec) approaching paco's familly assault is cut, goes straight to daughter assaulted behind the wagon. one of the wide shots after billy kills the attackers is also trimmed about 5 sec.
-a scene of one wh*re standing by the bed grabbing the ass of another one lying next to garret is inserted before poe comes down the hallway and knocks on the door. (about 10 sec.) this shot is not present in turner and I don't remember seeing it in 2005 seydor cut either.
-whole last part of kip mckinney scene trimmed off after garret says "and a couple of young ones" (little over a minute)
-after kip mckinney scene, the shot of them three riding between the houses outta town is cut and the whole subsequent bartender "f-ed up all my wh*res" scene is cut (about 20 sec). it goes from garret's "a couple of young ones too" and mckinney stunned stopping at half a sip to the panning scene of three of them riding in the open.
-instead of the cast and crew scroll there's sam's epilogue scroll on the same background freeze frame, it all fades out some 40 sec earlier but the song plays out in full over black screen.

I'm happy to report that the bunkhouse scene is intact"

Source (posts by RD Plissken):
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... 91&page=37

Also:
Three versions with "Knockin' On Heaven's Door":

1973 theatrical release -- in Criterion
2006 Special Edition -- in Warner Brothers DVD set.
2024 50th Anniversary Edition -- in Criterion

Two versions without the song:
April 1973 First Preview / Turner -- in Warner Brothers DVD set.
May 1973 Second Preview -- in Criterion.

Source: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... 91&page=31


The thread has at least 2 references to a BFI print with three minutes of material not available elsewhere.

[dwk]

Pat Garrett and Gary the Beaver