The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Lighthouse]

Oww, fuck, forgot to vote. I thought it was the end of March. It would have changed the list a lot with these few voters.

Nonetheless, my top 20:

The Wild Bunch

Once Upon a Time in the West
Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid

The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Little Big Man
The Mercenary
Hombre
Yellow Sky
The Great Silence
High Noon

Major Dundee
The Shooting
Cemetery Without Crosses
My Name is Nobody
El Puro
Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid
3:10 to Yuma
One Eyed Jacks
My Darling Clementine
Ulzana's Raid

[Drucker]

A few recent Warner Archive blu-rays I watched that I wanted to comment on.

The Law and Jake Wade by Sturges seriously delivered. There's a thread somewhere on this forum which comments on Widmark's superb sarcasm and it definitely delivers. The film is very economical in its storytelling and delivers plenty of surprises. Taylor, the protagonist, has several superb escape attempts foiled by Widmark. A great film that gets right to the point and the Warner Blu-ray is one of the best I've seen of a color-western (easily looks as good, as say, Man From Laramie.) Despite all of this, it doesn't seem like the film gets a lot of love on this Western list.

More perplexing to me is the affection apparently shown for Ballad of Cable Hogue which I found to be a very frustrating film. The film starts promisingly, with Hogue trying to survive in the desert without water or supplies, sabotaged by fellow men. Once he survives and sets up shop, however, the movie takes a bad turn into parody territory, with godawful attempts at humor. The folksy charm of Hogue quickly wears off and the film seems to needlessly meander. Is Hogue actually trying to start a business? If not, what exactly is he doing in this "ballad" style movie? The movie spends time showing us Hogue isn't too bright, but then seems to contradict himself as he realizes the Reverend can't be trusted and Hildy is bound to leave.

The last quarter of the movie gets good again. He gets to have a real showdown with his initial rivals, and the film does a perfect job of ending on this "ballad" style note. Hogue finally becomes the folksy hero he should have always been, and the psychedelic tone of history passing him by in the last few scenes does an amazing job of showing how Peckinpah could do more than bloody revenge films. But it's too litlte too late for this ridiculously uneven film.

Anybody here a big admirer of the film? Would love to read a good defense of it.

[ando]

Gettysburg (Ronald F Maxwell 1993) I dutifully watched all four and a half hours of this in one sitting, and despite critic and advertising claims to the contrary, I'd estimate maybe twenty minutes of that is devoted to actual battle scenes. The rest is filled with name actors in stage beards taking turns belting out "insightful" monologues that are so toothless and safe that the only impression one takes away from the time is that everyone was a perfect little would-be hero. Four and a half hours with a bunch of scruffy Mary Sues is a lot to take, and I kept hoping any of these real life characters would exhibit a personality trait beyond excessive angelic resolve. No such luck. Claims on the film's accuracy are a joke. What this movie really does is make all the Civil War fetishists dreams come true by presenting a sanitized vision of war that reinforces every noble idea fans of the era already hold. Points awarded to the producers for knowing their audience, but this is pretty weak for the rest of us.

Well, that's discouraging (though unsurprising). Looks like it falls into the Glory of The Civil War category. Too bad. Nothing glorious about that tragedy.

[FrauBlucher]

Last night I watched Stagecoach. I can't think of another Western that has all of the Western mythologies in it like Stagecoach. I'm sure there are.

[L.A.]

The Grey Fox (1982)
Thousand Pieces of Gold (1991)

What about these two, any good?

[therewillbeblus]

Cold Mountain: It's astonishing that this wasn't nominated for Best Picture, considering its strokes are right on the pulse of the Romantic Epic- an extensive character drama with a tonal flow stressing tragedy and possibility in equal measures. Within the structure of a dramatic war film, we get a classically puritanical romance juxtaposed with the recognized cruelty of revisionist western milieus. The contrast of this conservative love poem with the perverse, and at times surreal encounters, makes the magnetism to the traditional love arc feel all the more earned.

Spoiler

The drunken pitstop into a hailstorm of sexual deviance in the middle of the film is a wholly disturbing -rather than erotic- setpiece, contrasting the subjective experience of Law and our surrogate formalist aims with liberal pandemonium of id. I especially loved the choice to intersplice multiple camera angles in a turbulent back-and forth, from a close intimate identification with Law in his inebriated confusion to an aloof bird's eye ceiling view as Melora Walters attempts to forcibly seduce him, which gave me a dizzying, distanced effect reflecting Law's own sexual aversion in this scene.

[therewillbeblus]

The Grey Fox

I feel compelled to make a plug for this widely unseen film that's just popped up this year with a new restoration from KL, and will hopefully accrue a cult following soon. This is a humble revisionist western and distinctive biopic, that finds authentic grace in existential ambitions and the lovely power of choice, regardless of externally-defined morality. Richard Farnsworth is dynamic in an honest performance that elicits genuine empathy for a man who equates liberation via train-robbing with his own spiritual essence, and the gorgeous scenery patterned over his quietly enthusiastic self-actualization renders attention to ambiguous relativist philosophies insignificant: Instead, this is a character study that celebrates the will to takes one's life back from years lost, gently fighting time by living each moment on the edge like it was the last, and basking at small gifts in corporeal details within human interaction and inanimate environmental beauty. The care to show all this in poised juxtaposition between human presence and mother nature is mystical, and it's a unique subversion of the revisionist western in just how toned-down, meditative, and humanistic the vibe strikes without any restless stirs to be anything else. Above all else, this a perfect vehicle for Farnsworth, whose personality sells the film as original and true. In another actor's hands it would probably be either dull, conventional, or both, but Farnsworth's recognizable internalized humanity mirrors a part of all of our souls, and watching him move through the world with exhaustion, contentment, tragic sentimentality, and playfulness is a sincere brand of habitable optimism we can all buy into just a little. The diverse methods of narrative delivery, wavering from autumn-glazed transcendentalism to early silent-film-era graphics and shaky inter-titles a la The Great Train Robbery is a creative decision in step with the all-encompassing paradoxical tranquil and vibrant energies of our protagonist; and in an admirable effort to completely smash the bland trappings of the biopic, the film ends with an election to sell an inspired myth, which the filmmakers understand perfectly embodies the man's ethos to reach across the restrictive boundaries of society into the possibilities beyond the frames of normative existence. A worthy blind-buy from Kino Lorber.

[FrauBlucher]

Going back over the list I was surprised to see The Furies didn't make the top 100. I wonder if that would change given the release of the bluray.

[knives]

the definition of western that we've been using here is pretty loose, so don't forget stuff like [. . .] Antonio das Mortes

I rewatched this late last week to see whether I wanted to include it and even though it's a direct sequel to Black God, White Devil, I think Rocha pushes it so hard into the present day at various points (while retaining a lot of the traditional / 'ancient' aspects elsewhere) that it goes outside the genre. (Not that it would have been top 50 material for me anyway.)

Anyway, my list's in now, even though a few straggling purchases have yet to arrive and there are a number of films I ought to have re-watched (since just about all of those that I did moved definitively up or down).

I was just reminded about this modernity discussion while watching a Gene Autry western. Blue Montana Skies is unquestionably in genre, but also entirely contemporary. There are cars and other components of modernity with a uniquely and basic western story.

[zedz]

the definition of western that we've been using here is pretty loose, so don't forget stuff like [. . .] Antonio das Mortes

I rewatched this late last week to see whether I wanted to include it and even though it's a direct sequel to Black God, White Devil, I think Rocha pushes it so hard into the present day at various points (while retaining a lot of the traditional / 'ancient' aspects elsewhere) that it goes outside the genre. (Not that it would have been top 50 material for me anyway.)

Anyway, my list's in now, even though a few straggling purchases have yet to arrive and there are a number of films I ought to have re-watched (since just about all of those that I did moved definitively up or down).

I was just reminded about this modernity discussion while watching a Gene Autry western. Blue Montana Skies is unquestionably in genre, but also entirely contemporary. There are cars and other components of modernity with a uniquely and basic western story.

I think it's an interesting aspect of the western that it became a period genre over time. A lot of silent westerns are unproblematically contemporary: characters went out west and The West was still there. In many cases, unless a specific historical event was evoked or referenced (e.g. the Land Rush), whether the setting was past or present was ambiguous and unimportant.

But at some point (perhaps the forties / fifties, after the western was revived as a 'serious' genre post-Stagecoach), it became coded as a strictly period genre to the extent that in the sixties and seventies directors like Peckinpah and Leone could use 'anachronisms' such as motorcars, machine guns and tanks as a means to jolt viewers. (Of course, these elements aren't actually anachronistic in westerns set in the early twentieth century, but they rub against the received iconography of the genre that had accumulated by that point of its history.)

I still think that films made after the 50s with an unambiguously contemporary setting struggle to meet the criteria of 'western', however much they might borrow from the genre (e.g. Paris, Texas, The Rider). Maybe they should be considered "neo-westerns."

[Mr Sausage]

I don't know anyone who's seen Junior Bonner and didn't think it was a western. Maybe because, while it's plainly contemporary, it's also set in a kind of anachronistic space that preserves a lot of the ideas and ideals of The West.

[domino harvey]

Hud comes immediately to mind as well

[domino harvey]

the Hanging Tree (Delmer Daves 1959) This is an enjoyable but ultimately minor western from Daves, which at times flirts with presenting no positive characters at all but eventually relents in the end. Gary Cooper's last non-cancer addled performance is of his usual quality, and Karl Malden has a hoot as a dirty old man (talk about usual performances!). Poor Maria Schell gets slathered up in burn makeup and lusted after for most of the film, but she ends up faring better than most women in this genre. This dour film is the closest Daves has come yet in his work in this genre (that I've seen so far) to exhibiting his strengths as an auteur, as the possessiveness assorted men feel towards both women and other men (!) showcases Daves adeptness at understanding and utilizing the juvenile instincts.

Just learned Tavernier voted this as the best American film of the sound era for Cahiers in 1963. Which, as ever, is a choice. Here’s his full ballot:

01 the Hanging Tree (Delmar Daves)
02 Pursued (Raoul Walsh)
03 Moonfleet (Fritz Lang)
04 Angel Face (Otto Preminger)
05 An Affair to Remember (Leo McCarey)
06 To Have and Have Not (Howard Hawks)
07 Silver Lode (Alan Dwan)
08 Singin’ in the Rain (Stanley Donen/Gene Kelly)
09 the Band Wagon (Vincente Minelli)
10 the Searchers (John Ford)

You can tell the bloom was off the rose with the MacMahoniens for Losey by this period, as he’s the only one of the four aces to not place on his ballot

[Drucker]

Based on a few posts up, I've been chasing the high of The Law And Jake Wade for some time, but Escape From Fort Bravo was not it. I found this early Sturges film dull and plodding. Holden is supposedly a brutal ruler of this Union-run prison, but beyond that supposedly holds an even greater contempt for Native American populations. The film opens with him bringing a prisoner back to the camp by brutally returning an escaped prisoner by dragging them through the desert. But beyond that, we get very little insight into his supposedly brutal ways, just lots of people telling him how evil he is. In reality he supposedly has a heart of gold because he tends to a garden and falls in love along the way, but Holden's performance and tone don't really meaningfully shift throughout the film. He remains pretty stone-faced and quiet throughout. So we get the worst of both worlds, neither seeing Holden's supposed viciousness or the actual soft demeanor that lies underneath. Meanwhile, we're treated to unnecessary expository dialogue, and awful one-liners such as

Spoiler

"How did you know I was the one?" "The way you lit that cigar."

. I've seen a number of the less-famous Sturges films including Backlash and Last Train From Gun Hill and certainly enjoyed this one the least.

[domino harvey]

Oh, he made much worse in this genre, it’s called the Hallelujah Trail. Don’t really have any more westerns from Sturges to recommend to you, but I quite like his noirs Jeopardy and the Sign of the Ram (assuming you’ve seen Bad Day at Black Rock)

[Drucker]

Ah man I was thinking about picking up the Trail just because I'm a sucker for widescreen western epics (currently sitting on the Mann Cimarron). I also haven't yet checked out the more iconic Sturges such as Magnificent Seven or Gunfight.

I enjoy all of his other westerns to varying degrees, and do indeed own Bad Day, but none that I liked as much as Jake Wade.

[Altair]

5 Card Stud (Henry Hathaway, 1968)

Unbelievable that this came out in '68: proof, if ever it were needed, that the 60s really did happen only to a few people. Dean Martin is a gambler trying to find out who is killing a group of card players who lynched a cheat... is it Yaphette Koto? Or psycho Roddy McDowell? Or Robert Mitchum as a preacher who is so sleepy that they might as well have got a body double? Dreadful trash, over lit and directed like a TV western. Hathaway seems as bored as the cast, throwing in very little invention (the one good detail is thr sleeping dog in front of Mitchum's church). Even the "big" climax is tossed off. Only Dean Martin enjoys himself, clearly stipulating that every beautiful woman must throw themselves at him. Truly the end of the line for the classic Hollywood studio Western.

[Lighthouse]

5 Card Stud (Henry Hathaway, 1968)

Unbelievable that this came out in '68: proof, if ever it were needed, that the 60s really did happen only to a few people. Dean Martin is a gambler trying to find out who is killing a group of card players who lynched a cheat... is it Yaphette Koto? Or psycho Roddy McDowell? Or Robert Mitchum as a preacher who is so sleepy that they might as well have got a body double? Dreadful trash, over lit and directed like a TV western. Hathaway seems as bored as the cast, throwing in very little invention (the one good detail is thr sleeping dog in front of Mitchum's church). Even the "big" climax is tossed off. Only Dean Martin enjoys himself, clearly stipulating that every beautiful woman must throw themselves at him. Truly the end of the line for the classic Hollywood studio Western.

Yes, it feels like all (except probably Martin) were bored by making it.

The funny aspect is that the same team with director Hathaway, writer Roberts and producer Wallis made a few months later the very inspired True Grit, which is for me Hathaway's best western. And 5 Card Stud is the worst.

[Lighthouse]

Oh, he made much worse in this genre, it’s called the Hallelujah Trail. Don’t really have any more westerns from Sturges to recommend to you, but I quite like his noirs Jeopardy and the Sign of the Ram (assuming you’ve seen Bad Day at Black Rock)

Hmm, The Hallelujah Trail is a comedy, surely not great but also not that bad. The John Sturges Western Turkey Award goes easily to Sergeant's Three.

From his 50s western I like Last Train from Gun Hill the least, which wastes a lot of its potential. Which should be so much better with such a cast and such a story.

[domino harvey]

The Hallelujah Trail is one of the most miserable filmwatching experiences of my life, so, agree to disagree

[Lighthouse]

Hmm, yeah, it's an overlong comedy, and the parody parts do not always work ... maybe I rewatch it one day, maybe then I follow you ...

[therewillbeblus]

Little Big Man is a weird movie full of amusing paradoxes. It's a rapid yet shaggy, episodic comedy with bursts of ultraviolence. It has the guts, or deranged mind, to mix satire and farce, oscillating back and forth and overlapping different comedic tones. The activity therein is often superfluous but also has a message. It's a silly affair with earned drama. Hoffman is the butt of all jokes except that he's also the vehicle to expose the jokes of life, specific to the film's targets and more generally to our population. It is particularly unsettling watching this movie today, when brief pockets of lighthearted bliss are constantly shattered by transient upsetting events, at about the real-time speed that this film edits through entire stages of a man's life. Even with all the yelling and screaming, Hoffman seems to underplay the part, so we can see ourselves as him: bystanders in the unjust chaos of existence, relatively hollow and powerless in our role. He may be a fool, but he's also our hero. And there's a sadness to that sweetness.

I can see why people would either find this awful or brilliant, as a comedy or drama. I'm not convinced that its cleverness or poignancy were intended to evoke the effects they do, and it's likely a series of happy accidents that make for a really fun movie. Comedy is subjective, and I think -because it's so intertwined with the rest of the film's ideas in odd contexts- that subjective journey extends to where one might find the movie's heart. I found it in how devastating it is that what we value both doesn't matter so much and also matters more than anything at once, and how small we are to cope with that dissonance

[domino harvey]

I’m watching the 1960 Oscars on YouTube and I thought this Bob Hope joke from the opening is not only funny (!), but inadvertently spot on

Pretty soon there’ll be nothing but offbeat psychological westerns. Tomorrow when the hero gets shot by the villain, he says, “I wonder what he meant by that.”

(Also I love how I always have to Google at least one topical joke every year, even though I know this era better than most people who didn’t live through it. This year it was Dr Finch)

[Lighthouse]

I’m watching the 1960 Oscars on YouTube and I thought this Bob Hope joke from the opening is not only funny (!), but inadvertently spot on

Pretty soon there’ll be nothing but offbeat psychological westerns. Tomorrow when the hero gets shot by the villain, he says, “I wonder what he meant by that.”

Ha ha, that's great ...

Little Big Man, the bold mixture works very well for me, still one of the genre's best films. More ideas in one film than other directors had in their whole career ...