Criterion Discussion and Random Speculation Volume 7

[nicolas]

This has probably been mentioned, but is it possible they're putting all resources into the 4K format which is known to be more expensive, since that will guarantee more returns as a business than, say, adding in a newly-commissioned commentary that'll be the selling point for far fewer eyes? It's a huge bummer, but I get it

This is a good point. They‘ve definitely been doing that since early 2024. I remember there was a month that didn’t have any UHDs shortly after they started and that’s when people got upset, yet Criterion were just testing the waters then. Titles like Demon Pond would’ve never gotten a 4K in 2022. In that vein, it’s similar to what the KL representatives said repeatedly and how their philosophy towards 4K changed once the ball got rolling. Now in the niche physical market, the 4K format is more important than ever as the current target group for boutique physical media releases is more inclined to buy the better format when available and are more unwilling to purchase BDs that have 4K-restored films on them when these would potentially do well on UHD. That’s why they’re churning out UHD after UHD even of titles that don’t necessarily come to mind first for 4K UHDs and it seems like that works out for them. Vinegar Syndrome also contributed greatly to the 4K format evolving in broader (weirder) directions and Criterion are definitely following in these footsteps in their own way now. I’m personally very happy with the way they’re doing things this year and hope they’re trying to upgrade more “risky” titles and types of films from their library that haven’t gotten any exposure on the UHD format. I’m thinking of Antonioni and L’avventura / Red Desert or Kiarostami for example but there’s so much more. The Apu Trilogy was a great start.

[therewillbeblus]

I’m thinking of Antonioni and L’avventura / Red Desert

Probably my most-wanted 4K upgrades as well

[DimitriL]

I've been following Criterion releases for a long time. Many, many, many of the DVD releases had little to no extra features. Of course the releases with no extras aren't the major releases everyone buys and talks about. We still get many releases loaded with extras such as Mudbound or The Others. I wonder if we have selective memory about this, associating the copious extras of Seven Samurai, Videodrome, McCabe & Mrs. Miller, or Citizen Kane with the brand and what to expect of the label from every release. But historically, this has not even been the case.

That’s true. I especially remember the laserdisc days, where the legend had them packing every edition with monumental extras. But hell, their CAV edition of Lawrence of Arabia had one little photo gallery and nothing else and you paid $150 in 1990 dollars for the privilege.

(Meanwhile, we just got The Underground Railroad with maybe the most innovative, instructive use of audio commentary in a decade and I feel like it’s gotten a big meh.)

[rrenault]

For what it’s worth, I do get the impression they’re deprioritizing Blu-ray->UHD upgrades in favor of new entries and titles they only previously released in DVD. Of the 18 films(counting titles in boxsets individually) that are either forthcoming on UHD or have been released on the format this month only three are titles they previously released on Blu-ray(Le Samourai, The Last Emperor, Repo Man).

I could be wrong, but I’m inclined to think the potential upgrade fatigue among their customer base is something they factor into choosing what to upgrade from Blu-ray. For instance, I get the impression releases like Rules of the Game and the Apu Trilogy have not sold very well on UHD. Amazon US was even selling the UHD version of the Apu Trilogy for slightly less than the Blu-ray version for a while. Make of that what you will.

Realistically, how many UHD units of films like Memories of Underdevelopment or Muriel would they actually move? Films like Blue Velvet and Repo Man have a built-in A/V enthusiast audience that the previous two films and directors like Antonioni and Bresson don’t in my opinion. Le Samourai and Rules of the Game were likely released on the format to showcase new masters created by Criterion themselves, and Criterion don’t like doing remastered Blu-rays, although the former is also a genre film of sorts and the master was of course robust enough to justify the 4K treatment. I’m sure L’Avventura would look lovely on UHD, and it’s one of my favorite films, but it frankly feels like a long shot for an upgrade, since it’s had a serviceable 4K-sourced Blu-ray available for ages(and it would be almost guaranteed to be a 4K SDR disc), and Antonioni has never been among their best-selling directors despite his canonical status. Fellini and Tarkovsky seem to be far more popular. Only a small percentage of A/V enthusiasts, meaning the blu-Ray.com crowd essentially, seem to go hard for the vintage pre-1970 world cinema stuff, perhaps something like Seven Samurai notwithstanding. That said, I’m sure if Criterion got their hands on a new 4K master of The Passenger it would get the UHD treatment.

As for Red Desert, my impression is the 4K master was quite problematic and probably not worth putting on a UHD disc, even if the Criterion Blu-ray does show its age a tad, not that it’s a bad looking disc of course.

Granted, I know this may not be the most popular opinion, and I say this having acquired a few dozen UHDs, but 1080p Blu-ray still feels more than adequate for home viewing of 85% of vintage pre-digital age cinema. A side of me feels it would have been better for cinephilia in general had UHD remained an “event films only” format, so yes for Lawrence of Arabia and Blade Runner but maybe not a priority for something like Alphaville.

I’d argue The Leopard is more in need of a UHD than L’Avventura, and I’m a bigger fan of the latter film.

[andyli]

Upgrade fatigue is real. It feels like yesterday when Criterion released something like Blue Velvet or McCabe & Mrs. Miller, which was already sourced from the 4k restoration. I’m taking a very laid back approach now, only considering getting an upgrade if I find a good opportunity to gift my original blu.

Also, I find getting rid of the mentality of paying for even the most minute improvement (as if there’s a never-ending competition for the ‘best’ release of every film, as evidenced by the creation of a certain thread on this forum recently) has helped me regain the fun of collecting physical media. Good enough is good enough for me. I don’t know how that sort of way of thinking is gonna impact the industry though.

[andyli]

Back to the topic of new bonus material. It seems to me that Warner is the bigger offender when it comes to not creating new stuff in the blu-ray era. But they have the excuse of having created some of the most impressive deluxe packages on DVD. By the same token Criterion could also rest on their laurels a bit when it’s something like Pandora’s Box. But they are not immune to criticism with new entries like the Sembene box, which is extremely meager in the extras department, as noted by Chris’ recent review on this site.

Needless to say one way to encourage them do more is to actually watch and discuss their extras, like in one of Dimitri’s posts. I believe they used to claim not commissioning new commentary tracks because very few people listen to them (I wonder how they arrived at that conclusion, though).

[rrenault]

Upgrade fatigue is real. It feels like yesterday when Criterion released something like Blue Velvet or McCabe & Mrs. Miller, which was already sourced from the 4k restoration. I’m taking a very laid back approach now, only considering getting an upgrade if I find a good opportunity to gift my original blu.

Also, I find getting rid of the mentality of paying for even the most minute improvement (as if there’s a never-ending competition for the ‘best’ release of every film, as evidenced by the creation of a certain thread on this forum recently) has helped me regain the fun of collecting physical media. Good enough is good enough for me. I don’t know how that sort of way of thinking is gonna impact the industry though.

I'm trying to maintain a similar approach to the UHD format. if the film is in my top 50 of all time I'm probably going to want to upgrade no matter what unless it ends up in the 'Disappointing' or 'Avoid' column on this site in which case I can make due with a digital 4K source or a 4K-sourced blu-ray. I have 60-odd films on UHD and roughly a third of them are films I owned on blu-ray. The other 40 or so I've either never owned on disc or haven't owned physically since DVD.

I admit I was a bit more liberal with my UHD purchases a few years ago under the assumption only a manageable number of titles of interest would make it to the format anyway and that things would eventually taper off, but that's not where things seem to be headed. Mind you, there are some titles that get bought on any new format no matter what like like certain Kubrick and Hitchcock films.

[DimitriL]

It’s interesting, bc I don’t really see UHD as an “events film” type of format so much as the last word format. Short of uncompressed media, these releases are about as good as we’re likely to see films and I think a good amount of buyers approach it as such. I am fascinated by the choices some of you are making - which are totally valid, it’s not a criticism! Me, I’m maybe a little more picky than I was, but I generally find the UHD experience significantly better because it’s more than color and resolution. It’s grain resolving, it’s fluidity of motion. A proper 4k transfer does something that a BD seldom does: it feels like celluloid. (Shaft, The Red Shoes, The Last Waltz - these were all stunning to me for this reason. Even McCabe was really worthwhile because that source material is tricky and the advantages of 4k were significant.) That’s what I’ve wanted for a long time.

But yeah, I’m not gonna upgrade EVERY disc. I’ve never been a completist. Interestingly, the newer the film, the less likely I am to upgrade bc I think those tend to be cleaner off the bat. I didn’t upgrade The Fisher King, for instance. And other considerations - I didn’t upgrade Apu, just because it’s a really pricey set and it’s lower on my priorities.

Anyway, I don’t know if they’re slowing down BD—>UHD upgrades for any particular reason other than those upgrades are very helpful for plugging holes in their schedules, especially in slower months.

[DimitriL]

I believe they used to claim not commissioning new commentary tracks because very few people listen to them (I wonder how they arrived at that conclusion, though).

I seem to remember - hilariously - some talk of commentary fatigue at the height of DVD, where there were so many commentaries on mainstream discs that were basically spackle that people were actively skipping. I feel like this is an issue that Criterion should revisit. I LOVE a great commentary - Suber’s Graduate commentary and Sturges’ Bad Day at Black Rock made me passionate for them - and I’m grateful to Barry Jenkins for finding a new way to explore them on The Underground Railroad set. I would hope that going the extra mile would help newer generations become fans of the format.

[rrenault]

It’s interesting, bc I don’t really see UHD as an “events film” type of format so much as the last word format. Short of uncompressed media, these releases are about as good as we’re likely to see films and I think a good amount of buyers approach it as such. I am fascinated by the choices some of you are making - which are totally valid, it’s not a criticism! Me, I’m maybe a little more picky than I was, but I generally find the UHD experience significantly better because it’s more than color and resolution. It’s grain resolving, it’s fluidity of motion. A proper 4k transfer does something that a BD seldom does: it feels like celluloid. (Shaft, The Red Shoes, The Last Waltz - these were all stunning to me for this reason. Even McCabe was really worthwhile because that source material is tricky and the advantages of 4k were significant.) That’s what I’ve wanted for a long time.

But yeah, I’m not gonna upgrade EVERY disc. I’ve never been a completist. Interestingly, the newer the film, the less likely I am to upgrade bc I think those tend to be cleaner off the bat. I didn’t upgrade The Fisher King, for instance. And other considerations - I didn’t upgrade Apu, just because it’s a really pricey set and it’s lower on my priorities.

Anyway, I don’t know if they’re slowing down BD—>UHD upgrades for any particular reason other than those upgrades are very helpful for plugging holes in their schedules, especially in slower months.

Fair enough, although I do think some of the David M-authored 4K-sourced blus manage to pull off that "celluloid appearance" like BFI's blu-ray of Autumn Sonata for example.

[DimitriL]

Oh sure, I didn’t mean to suggest that BDs aren’t capable of achieving this - as you say, some are very lovely and film-like indeed with careful authoring. UHD just makes that more likely with that huge data lane. (And of course, the reverse can be true - some of the worst Paramount UHDs with disastrous bitrates lose virtually every advantage of the format and arguably look worse than the BDs.)

[ianthemovie]

(Meanwhile, we just got The Underground Railroad with maybe the most innovative, instructive use of audio commentary in a decade and I feel like it’s gotten a big meh.)

I'm curious, what did Jenkins do for this audio commentary? I've seen the series but I haven't gotten the Blu-ray.

[CSM126]

(Meanwhile, we just got The Underground Railroad with maybe the most innovative, instructive use of audio commentary in a decade and I feel like it’s gotten a big meh.)

I'm curious, what did Jenkins do for this audio commentary? I've seen the series but I haven't gotten the Blu-ray.

There’s an introduction where Jenkins explains that the commentary has a specific order - he intends for you to listen in episode production order (which he lists) instead of broadcast order.

[mhofmann]

It’s interesting, bc I don’t really see UHD as an “events film” type of format so much as the last word format. Short of uncompressed media, these releases are about as good as we’re likely to see films and I think a good amount of buyers approach it as such. I am fascinated by the choices some of you are making - which are totally valid, it’s not a criticism! Me, I’m maybe a little more picky than I was, but I generally find the UHD experience significantly better because it’s more than color and resolution. It’s grain resolving, it’s fluidity of motion. A proper 4k transfer does something that a BD seldom does: it feels like celluloid. (Shaft, The Red Shoes, The Last Waltz - these were all stunning to me for this reason. Even McCabe was really worthwhile because that source material is tricky and the advantages of 4k were significant.) That’s what I’ve wanted for a long time.

That's exactly how I'm approaching it: A decent 4K UHD finally looks very close to the celluloid experience w.r.t. color reproduction, grain resolution, and overall detail. Even the very best Blu-ray masters and encodes cannot come close, especially in the faithful reproduction of fine grain. As I also believe it will be the "last" physical format, I tend to upgrade everything and absolutely welcome high-quality Blu-ray -> UHD upgrades.

[omegadirective]

Is there a thread in here that has a list of all the different editions released by Criterion?

For example:
Playtime had a dvd release, then an anamorphioc dvd release, then a blu ray release, then it was in the Tati set

Charade had a dvd release, and anamorphic dvd release, then a blu ray release

[andyli]

Are you looking for a list of titles that have been "upgraded" multiple times? Not that I know of. But if you look into the first one or two hundred spine numbers I think the ones you're looking for will be concentrated in there, given they have never messed with the numbers since they began releasing DVDs.

[yoloswegmaster]

This was posted by the official Night of the Living Dead FB page. I wonder what they could be referring to since NOTLD already got a 4K release. Maybe they finally were able to get the rights to DOTD?

[onedimension]

Maybe a box of all Romero's Dead films..

[therewillbeblus]

Or they're going to start upgrading their SDR 4Ks to HDR or DV. Scoop more money and inch towards never releasing a new film again

[black&huge]

Maybe a box of all Romero's Dead films..

I would welcome this just for a restored Day of the Dead

[dwk]

There are rumors that Second Sight was going to do Day of the Dead but they can't find the negative.

[DRW.mov]

Could also be putting Night back out in theaters for Halloween but lets hope for Dawn!

[yoloswegmaster]

This was posted by the official Night of the Living Dead FB page. I wonder what they could be referring to since NOTLD already got a 4K release. Maybe they finally were able to get the rights to DOTD?

So I thought that this post was referring to the UK release of the 4K disc but the page posted this yesterday:



I wonder what it could be hinting at?

[domino harvey]

Formerly OOP titles (back from the dead)

[dwk]

Jim Cironella posted that the UK release wasn't what was being teased

"While it's cool that the 4K UHD is releasing in the UK, that's not the news being teased here"

Real Gabbo is Coming situation here.