UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[nicolas]

A few brief 4K updates:

- High Crime (Blue Underground): Good in DV, bad in HDR due to heavy chroma noise. Borderline unwatchable in SDR due to aggressively saturated colors but, apart from the awkwardly graded highlights, really beautiful in DV. This is a wonderful edition with a new Franco Nero audio commentary and Enzo G. Castellari interview, among others.

- Incendies (101 Films UK). One of the bigger surprises of late because this is a fantastic UHD of an otherwise disappointing label. Their BDs are often bad to horrendous, and the included Incendies BD isn’t the best either due to Lego vision encoding, but the UHD is top-tier great. The film was restored in 4K in 2022 under the supervision of Denis Villeneuve and the DP and it looks exceptional. Either this is a FiM or Visual Data encode, otherwise this wouldn’t have looked as good. Audio is likely 16-bit and mastered at a lower volume than the 2.0 and the 5.1 on the Sony Pictures Classics BD but it doesn’t sound compressed. Overall a solid upgrade to the great Sony BD as 101 took over all the Sony extras.

- Last Year in Marienbad (KL). Other than the occasional brightest of highlights, this is a winner and so beautifully organic in motion. For fans of the film in my opinion this is a must-have. Note that KL didn’t port the BD booklet to the UHD.

- Alphaville (KL) is a tough case. I can confirm that the master was sadly messed with grain management which results in the magnetic, swarmy grain field that’s now baked into the master. It’s no classic DNR case with wiped-out grain but they probably wanted to give the entire film an “even” grain field. Hiventy is the guilty party and Alphaville marks the 3rd out of 3 messed up Godard films. I don’t like the grading very much either, it’s often unnecessarily dim, particularly in low-light scenes, but the grain management heightens that impression. However, when compared to the KL BD, it’s nonetheless an improvement. I’ve done an extensive comparison and the old 4K master is indeed quite significantly inferior because the underlying scan of whatever was used at the time isn’t the most detailed one. I’m pretty sure it was not the negative as the difference in detail between the two masters is occasionally astonishing. Despite the grain management, which as usual affects higher-generation material (opticals) the most, during OCN segments there’s so much detail it’s actually a little surreal. Particularly close-up’s are remarkably beautiful. I’ve long thought about with which version I’ll go in the future and even though the BD has the more organic look and the UHD master terrible flaws, I just can’t go back to that mushy look when knowing that the film can look that much better and in its best moments actually does. It’s a pick your poison thing. Since this is a new SC master I’m sure they’re also putting this out soon, however knowing French authoring houses, grain-managed masters like this usually lead to even worse encodes because their authoring software mistakes fine (managed) grain with no detail and therefore the bitrates plummet into single-digits. I fully expect that the same incompetent house that did Breathless and Contempt will do Alphaville as well since SC seemingly pair restoration houses with authoring houses. (This explains why restorations done in England and Silver Salt are all encoded by FiM or VDMS). KL on the other hand throw all possible bits at the master and encode the entire thing at 80-90 MB/s, which prevents the bitrate-dependent blockiness across entire frames that plague Paramount and SC’s worst UHDs. The only real issues with the KL encode are the typically blocky highlights. (I’m calling right now that the KL encode remains the better one once SC’s UHD comes out).

[therewillbeblus]

I'll take that as good news, thanks nicolas!

For those considering the value of a double-dip with the Criterion, Quandt's A-Z essay on KL's Marienbad release is quite good, as pointed out by domino a while back

[nicolas]

I'll take that as good news, thanks nicolas!

For those considering the value of a double-dip with the Criterion, Quandt's A-Z essay on KL's Marienbad release is quite good, as pointed out by domino a while back

I know how big a fan you are of Godard and it’s definitely a must for you. It’s a shame they had to mess with the grain at all as the base scan is so, so beautiful. In general, it’s fascinating to see labels invest more money and effort into removing or managing grain when they could leave it alone and get the perfect result that everyone wants.

[hearthesilence]

Interesting. The dimness isn't something I remember from the screening, so it's weird to hear that's on Kino's UHD. I noticed a few caps posted on blu-ray.com's forum, but they're extremely dim, to the point where it must have more to do with the capture than the actual master. (Or maybe the poster darkened them just so people can see more easily what he was referring to?) The shot with László Szabó in particular stands out - I remember that being much brighter on-screen because when he appeared in that shot I paid close attention as I tried to remember which films I had seen him in.

[nicolas]

Interesting. The dimness isn't something I remember from the screening, so it's weird to hear that's on Kino's UHD. I noticed a few caps posted on blu-ray.com's forum, but they're extremely dim, to the point where I imagine it has more to do with the capture than the actual master. (Or maybe the poster darkened them just so people can see more easily what he was referring to?) The shot with László Szabó in particular stands out - I remember that being much brighter on-screen because when he appeared in that shot I paid close attention as I tried to remember which films I had seen him in.

That’s not surprising to hear as I immediately thought that you saw a different master without the grain manipulation. I’m not an expert in DCP technicalities but studios / distributors need to create more than one for each title, taking into account that theatrical exhibitions are almost exclusively in the SDR range. I haven’t checked the UHD in SDR but will do and report if it’s a drastic difference. I also don’t see a label as careless as KL taking extra time to mess with the master if they don’t have to. This is a ready-made SC master complete with intro and their usual restoration text in French, which KL didn’t even subtitle.

Edit: I’ve compared the UHD again in all viewing modes and these screenshots reflect very well how dim the film looks in SDR. The DV version is a little brighter and in HDR10 it’s the brightest but still more muted than a level that would’ve been ideal in my mind. I’ll try to get HDR caps up in the next couple of days once the disc can be opened.

[Finch]

Is the Marienbad 4K a reference title against all the recent BDs from Criterion and Studio Canal?

Where does Alphaville go?

[nicolas]

Is the Marienbad 4K a reference title against all the recent BDs from Criterion and Studio Canal?

Where does Alphaville go?

Marienbad is a solid upgrade because Criterion has the better audio. Alphaville should technically be a blue category release due to the improvements of the new 4K scan alone but all the meddling with the master and Kino’s encode makes this still disappointing. This is a release that doesn’t deserve to be mentioned alongside some of Arrow’s wonderful blue category discs.

[therewillbeblus]

If the blue category is used to help people determine a solid upgrade though, shouldn't it still be there, even if it has caveats?

[nicolas]

If the blue category is used to help people determine a solid upgrade though, shouldn't it still be there, even if it has caveats?

I’ve never struggled so much with putting a label onto a disc. If we look at it objectively, grain was managed, the grade is largely dim and mushy and the encode is mediocre - not perfect, not outright ghastly. The saving grace is that the base scan is so strong compared to the old one with lots of detail shining through wherever the original negative was preserved. It’s an upgrade for that but pick-your-poison elsewhere.

[hearthesilence]

Edit: I’ve compared the UHD again in all viewing modes and these screenshots reflect very well how dim the film looks in SDR. The DV version is a little brighter and in HDR10 it’s the brightest but still more muted than a level that would’ve been ideal in my mind. I’ll try to get HDR caps up in the next couple of days once the disc can be opened.

That's disappointing to hear - the dimness in those caps look far from what I can recall from the MoMA screening. It's almost like watching it with a pair of sunglasses on! Maybe there's a satisfactory adjustment one can make to a TV set?

FWIW, I did a quick and conservative adjustment to those caps without clipping any information, and I would say this was a lot closer to what I saw (but with a bit less contrast).

László Szabó
Eddie Constantine and Anna Karina

(left a sliver of black on either side just to ensure I didn't crop off any visual detail)

[nicolas]

I've taken a look at Arrow's Desperado. I don't think that this is a red category encode as it's littered with heavy chroma noise and also macroblocking in the highlights (ex. cap 7). This is one of the few Arrow UHDs David Mackenzie / FiM didn't do and it shows. I've made several caps for demonstration. In case anyone doesn't know what chroma noise is, these are the red and green color blocks you see in all of the caps below - sometimes more, sometimes less. A very striking example is the shoe in cap 2. Chroma noise is introduced in the disc encoding process and shows when there's visible motion happening in the frame but, as in this case, it's also present during relative stillness which makes it even more noticeable and annoying.

The muzzle flashes and the area around them in particular are pretty much giant digital clumps and also paired with chroma noise. I know that the brightest whites in particular can't always resolve to the n-th degree particularly in HDR and especially if it's a 10.000 nits Sony torch mode grade but they can be encoded more gently to have visible grain roll off into the highlights seamlessly (which David achieves) instead of the ugly way. In my opinion, Desperado is merely a solid upgrade because of the encode. I'm not sure many of the regular posters and readers of this thread will notice this in motion but I still thought I'd mention this to make people aware. I do think you can have a wonderful time with this UHD regardless (I certainly will) but with Arrow's high standards, I can't help but feel a little disappointed that this isn't quite the definitive release of the film as the vast majority of the other films they put out.

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[Yakushima]

Any opinions on the Italian 4K of The Conformist ?. Are there English subs and are they done well?

I am watching the 4Kult's 4K UHD of The Conformist, and it is excellent. The English subs are done well too.

[nicolas]

Fat Phil at BR received the SC Red Sun Steelbook and is pleased with the encode but the grading is cool and leans green-ish. This isn’t surprising as the restoration was done in France but the old BD wasn’t overtly lush either, so I’m more inclined to believe that the new master is more correct than not. I’m not expecting many others to chime in as this isn’t the cheapest edition. Should we add it to the solid import category for now?

[nicolas]

This is something I’ve never expected and it’s the news of the year for me as well: Eagle Italy are going to release Sergio Leone’s Once Upon a Time in America in 4K. According to an insider on BR, they’re working on the release and it’s planned for November. Eagle are likely licensing this from Leone Group just like OUAT in the West without the involvement of Disney. I don’t mind the Ritrovata grade - better than nothing - but having this competently encoded on a full disc (or maybe even two) should make for a significant upgrade. Wonderful times for physical media.

[Yakushima]

This is something I’ve never expected and it’s the news of the year for me as well: Eagle Italy are going to release Sergio Leone’s Once Upon a Time in America in 4K. According to an insider on BR, they’re working on the release and it’s planned for November. Eagle are likely licensing this from Leone Group just like OUAT in the West without the involvement of Disney. I don’t mind the Ritrovata grade - better than nothing - but having this competently encoded on a full disc (or maybe even two) should make for a significant upgrade. Wonderful times for physical media.

Whoa, this is fantastic news! Thank you for sharing, Nicolas!
I wonder if this will be the director's cut with the inserted deleted footage or the "standard" version. In any event, a day one import for me.

[nicolas]

This is something I’ve never expected and it’s the news of the year for me as well: Eagle Italy are going to release Sergio Leone’s Once Upon a Time in America in 4K. According to an insider on BR, they’re working on the release and it’s planned for November. Eagle are likely licensing this from Leone Group just like OUAT in the West without the involvement of Disney. I don’t mind the Ritrovata grade - better than nothing - but having this competently encoded on a full disc (or maybe even two) should make for a significant upgrade. Wonderful times for physical media.

Whoa, this is fantastic news! Thank you for sharing, Nicolas!
I wonder if this will be the director's cut with the inserted deleted footage or the "standard" version. In any event, a day one import for me.

I can’t imagine anything else than the DC as that one was finished in 4K but I wouldn’t mind getting both cuts. Thankfully Eagle are fan-friendly and with them trying to present OUATITW as best as possible gives me confidence. Currently nothing else is known though but I’ll update when more info is shared.

[nicolas]

BR.com is very happy with Arrow’s Friday the 13th remake upgrade. This has two cuts on BD-100s each and quality is apparently fantastic. The impressions read like a red category release.

I’m happy with Repo Man in 4K but it’s only a blue category title as the 2K-restored BD is still quite good, particularly when it comes to image detail. This is my first time seeing the BD and I could’ve sworn that the 2013 transfer was done in 4K and only learned afterwards that it was 2K. The UHD improves on the 2K scan only subtly and refines more than it gains fresh.

The UHD grading is slightly darker, warmer and with less contrast than the BD but it looks pleasing and filmic. Encoding on the 4K (BD-100) okay and improves on the nearly consistently buzzy-looking BD but highlights should’ve been optimized better as they’re more noisy and swarm-like than grainy. It’s not quite KL territory in the worst-looking shots (one at minute 16 stood out to me) because shots with average brightness levels are good. If you have the BD and are happy with it, I don’t think this is an immediately necessary upgrade but for first-time buyers it’s a good set and am happy that I waited.

[onedimension]

Do we know what's happening with a UHD for Alphaville in the UK? Is it Arrow, Studio Canal?

[nicolas]

Do we know what's happening with a UHD for Alphaville in the UK? Is it Arrow, Studio Canal?

No info yet but SC seems likely as they generally don’t license titles out in Europe. Fran / Radiance Films told me this a while ago.

[MichaelB]

They do license titles out in Europe - I've worked on several StudioCanal titles for Indicator, and even on UHD (Bruiser being a recent case in point) - but they invariably keep the jewels of their catalogue to themselves.

Which suits Indicator just fine, as they specialise in unfairly neglected films like that and Impossible Object (another recent example*), but Powerhouse isn't under any illusions that they're going to be getting their hands on Ealing comedies or indeed most of StudioCanal's Hammer titles.

(*This could conceivably have been UHD too, as it was sourced from a 4K restoration - but the film's so obscure that even putting it out on Blu-ray was a commercial risk, and it was felt that a UHD with its unavoidable price premium would have been a certain money-loser.)

[andyli]

When Indicator gets their hands on Carnal Knowledge, I hope it’s a UHD.

[nicolas]

They do license titles out in Europe - I've worked on several StudioCanal titles for Indicator, and even on UHD (Bruiser being a recent case in point) - but they invariably keep the jewels of their catalogue to themselves.

Which suits Indicator just fine, as they specialise in unfairly neglected films like that and Impossible Object (another recent example*), but Powerhouse isn't under any illusions that they're going to be getting their hands on Ealing comedies or indeed most of StudioCanal's Hammer titles.

(*This could conceivably have been UHD too, as it was sourced from a 4K restoration - but the film's so obscure that even putting it out on Blu-ray was a commercial risk, and it was felt that a UHD with its unavoidable price premium would have been a certain money-loser.)

Well that’s really great news, thanks for sharing! Maybe Radiance was simply too new / small-scale for SC at the time I asked.

[dwk]

Which suits Indicator just fine, as they specialise in unfairly neglected films like that and Impossible Object (another recent example*), but Powerhouse isn't under any illusions that they're going to be getting their hands on Ealing comedies or indeed most of StudioCanal's Hammer titles.

Shame they couldn't at least get those Ealing comedies in the US, instead of Kino. And the Hammer titles too, if Kino is the one that picked up all the ones that Scream didn't renew.

[nicolas]

The BR.com insider who revealed that Eagle puts out the Sergio Leone UHDs has gotten word that they‘re also doing A Fistful of Dynamite in 4K! Currently a new master is being made. This too is very welcome and surprising as KL didn’t release a 4K for cost reasons.

Edit: The Once Upon a Time in America UHD is seemingly not yet ready and there was a miscommunication with the insider. They’re now clarifying which is true: Release date or release announcement in November - probably the latter.

[crimlaw]

Is Indicator still releasing Carnal Knowledge? Haven’t heard anything as to this rumor in a long time. It’s considered a heavyweight title (at least in the U.S.) and seems like Studio Canal would, actually, release it rather than licensing it out to another label.