Jokers (Todd Phillips, 2019-2024)

[domino harvey]

Early reactions are not great. Gaga is a supporting role, not co-lead, but it also sounds like this film won’t factor much into the Academy Awards. What a week for Oscar prognosticators

[tenia]

Oh so no Golden Lion this time, I guess.

[beamish14]

Phillips never lived up to the promise he showed on Frat House

[domino harvey]

The revelation that the film is primarily a courtroom drama is delighting me to no end— who wanted that?

[Mr Sausage]

I liked it better when this seemed like it would be a big old-fashioned musical taking place in the heads of a pair of smitten screwballs.

[colinr0380]

The revelation that the film is primarily a courtroom drama is delighting me to no end— who wanted that?

Maybe it is playing towards the fans of Nicolas Roeg's Eureka?

[tenia]

The revelation that the film is primarily a courtroom drama is delighting me to no end— who wanted that?

David Ehrlich's review is mostly about this : the movie seems to want to punish the fans of the first movie by denying them everything they might have looked for with a Lady Gaga starring musical sequel (" an excruciatingly — perhaps even deliberately — boring sequel that does everything in its power not to amuse you.").

[hearthesilence]

The Onion’s Exclusive Interview With Joaquin Phoenix And Lady Gaga

[The Narrator Returns]

The revelation that the film is primarily a courtroom drama is delighting me to no end— who wanted that?

It seems nobody wants it. This was already tracking poorly but now it’s gotten the absolute worst word-of-mouth of any movie of the modern superhero era, with a D Cinemascore one notch below Megalopolis’s. The only reaction I’ve read that makes it sound even theoretically interesting is Jane Schoenbrun positively calling it “slow cinema Cop Rock”, which might get five people total to watch it when it goes on digital.

[domino harvey]

From what I’ve seen, the main objection from many is just that it’s a musical. It is not a state secret that musicals are seemingly physically repulsive to most modern audiences (especially those audiences that would have loved the first Joker), but somehow I doubt this particular musical is the one to wage a genre-wide defense behind

[Never Cursed]

Perhaps someone can correct me on this, but apparently the climax of this film involves

Spoilers, NSFL

prison guards raping the Joker out of Arthur Fleck,

a concept so stupid and mawkishly vulgar that...well, I can still believe Todd Phillips came up with it. It makes more sense why Warners is now banking on the new Clint Eastwood this season.

[domino harvey]

I just had the misfortune of reading an overly detailed breakdown of the ending to tell you yes it occurs but not it is not the finale.

I can’t imagine who greenlit this movie based on what I did read, though. Fucking with your core audience from the first film in a sequel is great if you’re Joe Dante or Fritz Lang and can deliver something that does more than that. If you’re Todd Phillips, well, enjoy a future career making Amazon Prime originals, because you’re never getting a blank check again

I am being 100% unfair by judging this movie without actually seeing it, but I’m okay with that

[TechnicolorAcid]

I can’t imagine who greenlit this movie based on what I did read, though. Fucking with your core audience from the first film in a sequel is great if you’re Joe Dante or Fritz Lang and can deliver something that does more than that.

Pardon my ignorance but which film did Lang do that would fit this label? I certainly don’t remember any of the Mabuse sequels going too off the rails or at least enough to alienate their initial audience.

[Mr Sausage]

So did Phillips, like, pull a Hideaki Anno and troll his own toxic fanbase?

[domino harvey]

Pardon my ignorance but which film did Lang do that would fit this label? I certainly don’t remember any of the Mabuse sequels going too off the rails or at least enough to alienate their initial audience.

The Return of Frank James

[TechnicolorAcid]

Oh okay thanks, for whatever reason I always assumed that was a standalone film.

[domino harvey]

So did Phillips, like, pull a Hideaki Anno and troll his own toxic fanbase?

I haven’t seen his work to compare, but my guess is that Phillips deeply misunderstood what his fanbase would be willing to accept. On the one hand, it’s amusing that this is the sequel they get, but on the other hand, I find it hard to believe that no one stopped Phillips from leaning into the worst aspects of the first film, its unintentionally comic miserableness, and then ending with a message of

Spoiler

This wasn’t the “real” Joker, just A Joker. Oh, okay, and who as an audience is going to be receptive to that? Anyone? Aaaand, we already more or less got that at the end of the first one with the murderer of the Waynes, so why does this film exist at all?

[domino harvey]

Also, I did not learn until today that two (other) accomplished Oscar nominees were in this, and to protect their great success at keeping their participation quiet, I’ll put them in this spoiler box

Spoiler

Surely Catherine Keener and Brendan Gleeson are the real winners here

[Mr Sausage]

Spoiler

Aaaand, we already more or less got that at the end of the first one with the murderer of the Waynes, so why does this film exist at all?

What do you mean?

[domino harvey]

Spoiler

The killer of the Waynes at the end of the first film was a random rioter in a Joker getup. Which is to say, A Joker killed them. And now Phoenix’s character is too just A Joker at the end of the sequel, this time supplanted directly

[Mr Sausage]

Ah, ok. Makes sense.

[tenia]

So did Phillips, like, pull a Hideaki Anno and troll his own toxic fanbase?

I haven’t seen his work to compare, but my guess is that Phillips deeply misunderstood what his fanbase would be willing to accept. On the one hand, it’s amusing that this is the sequel they get, but on the other hand, I find it hard to believe that no one stopped Phillips from leaning into the worst aspects of the first film, its unintentionally comic miserableness, and then ending with a message of

Spoiler

This wasn’t the “real” Joker, just A Joker. Oh, okay, and who as an audience is going to be receptive to that? Anyone? Aaaand, we already more or less got that at the end of the first one with the murderer of the Waynes, so why does this film exist at all?

Spoiler

I do think, in this respect, that it goes with the original promise of a stand-alone really-apart mid-budget movie, and here comes anyway the $200m sequel.

This being said, from what I read about the sequel (haven't seen it yet, won't see it in theater), it does seem like having the exact same issues than the 1st movie, so I don't know why this one get, say, a D on CinemaScore while the 1st one didn't.

[pianocrash]

With respect to King Hu, seeing this sequel in the theater was like being inside of Goodbye, Dragon Inn, so I totally understand Schoenbrun's ache. However, Cop Rock at least had commercial breaks, and seemed to also know how ridiculous it was being (Los Angeles plays itself, Folie a deux plays Billy Joel).

Also, I wish I could actually comment on the full quality/quantity of this picture, but I fell asleep for at least a good half hour (slow cinema, indeed!), and that lapse was when all that horrible spoilered stuff went down.

Spoiler

Gleeson's performance was approaching something closer to Pennies From Heaven, which is still, somehow beyond T. Phillips' comprehension, sadly, but his supporting role allows for all the tension in the picture whereas it still feels misplaced when you have Gaga at your disposal. Say what you will, her charisma is electric, and it's unfortunate that she hasn't found a Cruella-type vehicle for that kind of energy, especially as this seemed like a perfect fit for that to be let loosed. Hausu Gucci? Non plus.

It's actually astounding how timid it all really felt despite it daring to shock (again, sorry I missed the worst), but none of that information (not even the surprisingly flat-footed Sylvian Chomet cartoon that opens it, holy shit!) really does much of anything for anyone. Fan of classic musicals? Who cares! Remember that other courtroom explosion in that other DC affiliate film? Me neither! Does every generation deserve it's very own Shanghai Surprise? I guess so.

[therewillbeblus]

I didn’t like the first film much but thought this was legitimately good, with a strong juxtaposition between the miserable conditions for the characters and musical numbers offering cathartic escape. It actually helps that the film is rather fantastical and uneven during its ‘realist’ moments, as this only aids the clash that feels like a cinematic externalization of a mind slipping into itself. Phillips uses the musical elements as somewhat diegetic in the world of the film like Love Me Tonight -when not in dreams- so choosing already-established songs the characters have taken in from various cultural media feels appropriate. Even though some will be disappointed that the narrative is introverted into psychological depth, it’s also the best possible rationale for making a musical sequel to joker, and its effectiveness shows why the preferred ‘expansive’ option might not have worked so well. This is really the most honest way Phillips could’ve justified his genre shifts, as well as the most honest path for the character to be taken next. GaGa is very good and plays well off of Phoenix, while the supporting actors are dry and their characters thin - but this also aids the thematic tone of solipsistic delusion, which is made happy for a while as a defense mechanism against the sad. So it would makes sense for that the spoilered finale "reveal" to occur in Phillips’ film, since he’s always been making a movie about something different from the DC-universe character, but it's not exactly true.

Spoiler

Arthur Fleck is The Joker of this story, the other Jokers are his followers. I didn't view that scene as being much different from the scene in The Dark Knight with Batman's imitators getting schooled, for the purposes of this Joker narrative. It's just a very secluded, tragic one that doesn't involve Batman. And that isn't how the film ends either, nor is it pronounced in its finale - but man is the ending subversively perfect.

I loved how Harley was used to give and then take away the one thing left that could've possibly 'saved' Fleck (well, that be believes could have, but also probably his last hope in actuality). The core poignant theme is in how challenging it is to find inspiration, acceptance, and sympathy in another, and how ultimately even if we do find it, we are unable to bypass our internal psychological and behavioral barriers to transform that experience into anything meaningful or true.

There are some lame bits, sure, but I'm willing to forgive them in favor of what does succeed in such an ambitious project. I really don't like Phillips' work, but this is handily his best to date. Too bad he probably won't be invited to make many more of its ilk, but that's what you get when you deliberately alienate your audience. The trailer looked liberating, and this is anything but. It’s doomed to be misunderstood.

[domino harvey]

Unbelievably, Morbius made more than this on opening weekend