UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

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nicolas
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#26 Post by nicolas » Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:56 am

Happiness screenshots by cinemaniac: https://slow.pics/c/q7jmgxm0

Definitely a red category title with a caveat regarding the poor audio.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#27 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Oct 22, 2024 5:43 pm

nicolas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:56 am
Happiness screenshots by cinemaniac: https://slow.pics/c/q7jmgxm0

Definitely a red category title with a caveat regarding the poor audio.
Was kind of shocked to see that the audio is a downgrade from the audio on the DVD released 20+ years ago. Does Criterion do this out of neglect, or just because they weren't given better materials by the studio?

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#28 Post by yoloswegmaster » Tue Oct 22, 2024 6:14 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 5:43 pm
nicolas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:56 am
Happiness screenshots by cinemaniac: https://slow.pics/c/q7jmgxm0

Definitely a red category title with a caveat regarding the poor audio.
Was kind of shocked to see that the audio is a downgrade from the audio on the DVD released 20+ years ago. Does Criterion do this out of neglect, or just because they weren't given better materials by the studio?
I believe Peter Becker briefly said in an interview earlier this month that the sound negatives are missing.

I know that the guy who works for Cameron Crowe also said that the soundtrack for Fast Times at Ridgemont High was also missing, which makes me wonder if they were both destroyed in that fire at Universal back in 2009.

nicolas
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#29 Post by nicolas » Tue Oct 22, 2024 6:59 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 6:14 pm
mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 5:43 pm
nicolas wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:56 am
Happiness screenshots by cinemaniac: https://slow.pics/c/q7jmgxm0

Definitely a red category title with a caveat regarding the poor audio.
Was kind of shocked to see that the audio is a downgrade from the audio on the DVD released 20+ years ago. Does Criterion do this out of neglect, or just because they weren't given better materials by the studio?
I believe Peter Becker briefly said in an interview earlier this month that the sound negatives are missing.

I know that the guy who works for Cameron Crowe also said that the soundtrack for Fast Times at Ridgemont High was also missing, which makes me wonder if they were both destroyed in that fire at Universal back in 2009.
That could be true but Criterion still dropped the ball by failing to be transparent about this. I don’t think many would’ve complained even if they literally extracted the lossy encode from the DVD. It’s the lack of transparency and the need to mess with this seemingly solid mix even further that rightfully pisses people off. For situations like this, Criterion’s “About the Transfer” notes were usually helpful but sadly they slimmed these down in a way that they’re now basically irrelevant.

Gummo is the next case with a mix that’s also almost identical to the DVD track and with more filtering, see here: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=70. Not sure what’s going on with that film’s elements.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#30 Post by yoloswegmaster » Tue Oct 22, 2024 7:26 pm

I think the fact that a major studio has somehow lost not one, but two soundtracks (and who knows how many more) is more worthy of ire (like way more). But you do you I guess.

nicolas
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#31 Post by nicolas » Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:34 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 7:26 pm
I think the fact that a major studio has somehow lost not one, but two soundtracks (and who knows how many more) is more worthy of ire (like way more). But you do you I guess.
That still doesn’t exempt Criterion from being more transparent about what they’re doing with these lossy transcodes. Describing what they had to work with wouldn’t hurt them in any way.

nicolas
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#32 Post by nicolas » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:29 am

I received The African Queen today. This is a UHD-100 and indeed with Dolby Vision for the feature. Audio is PCM 2.0, commentary audio DTS 2.0, which is the first sign that Fidelity in Motion did not do the encode and rather VDMS.

I’ve only sampled a couple of sections and am very happy with what I’ve seen. The 2010 restoration is fantastic and has significantly tighter grain than people might expect but this is solely due to elder releases (most likely) resolving the grain less perfectly and if something like low-pass filtering is added, it obviously affects detail as well. I only have the Eureka Blu-ray and was never really happy with its encode. Grain is quite noisy, sometimes entirely frozen and weirdly color-pixelated while frozen. The Eureka doesn’t look filtered but far from crisp and tight.

The new UHD is a winner for that aspect alone. It’s a beautiful encode with tight grain and no visible issues (other than a tiny, tiny touch of chroma noise that’s noticeable in still frames but not in motion). However, the big novelty for me was a change in color timing. This new UHD presents the film in a yellower and green-ish grade but hear me out before shrugging it off. It’s a tasteful look, NO blanket tint and nothing that looks overtly revisionist because it’s a grade that looks fine-tuned depending on the scene and light instead of a global adjustment.

As mentioned, I only have the Eureka disc and the film looks more "natural" in certain segments but not all of it. It’s as if they did a partial re-grade to get rid of some semi-turquoise skies and Technicolor yellows in the original SDR grade on which the UHD is also based. The "semi-" really needs emphasis as the "teal" is not an in-your-face atrocity like the Violent City remaster. While Eureka managed to achieve a partial reduction quite well, after comparing I still wouldn’t want to go back to that BD simply because the 4K feels consistent in its approach and presents the film most likely as intended by Jack Cardiff when he did the color timing compared to a more inconsistently re-balanced look of the BD. The film now looks properly filmic and appropriate for its setting. Can’t comment on how the other BDs look as I’ve never owned / seen them.

Regarding HDR/DV: Exquisite and beautifully done. Very carefully, not exaggerated and gently enhancing when it makes sense to. The way they applied it here is comparable to how Criterion did it for The Red Shoes when they put out the 2009 restoration in 4K.

This is a fantastic UHD and I think the wait was more than worth it.

Audio is difficult for me to judge. I felt it sounded good but the upper register is a bit tinny. Either they filtered it or that’s the way it was recorded - I really don’t know.

nicolas
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#33 Post by nicolas » Fri Oct 25, 2024 5:37 am

Just received my Eagle UHD of Once Upon a Time in the West. This is clearly the best presentation of the film.

Yes, the DNR is annoying and the way the remnants of former grain move around the screen far from attractive but does it ruin the viewing experience? Definitely not. The UHD is better than the old Paramount BD and also the Eagle BD, which is also from the new master. I’ve grown accustomed to the way the Paramount looks as this is one of my top 5 favorite films and even though it might appear more organic compared to the DNR of the new master, the old master isn’t that organic either and things like blown-out highlights, worse colors and some specks / dirt also don’t do it any favors.

Much has been said about the new master and I prefer it in virtually every way, DNR obviously aside. More detail, much better colors, improved contrast and great HDR. This new master has to be experienced in 4K with HDR as the Eagle BD in SDR is overtly colorful and contrasty without the nuance HDR enables. I’ve read some takes that the 4K-restored Paramount BD has more detail / grain than the UHD and is better encoded and I wish I could’ve seen that myself but I avoided their set like the plague. The Eagle BD is more noisy, less well encoded and there’s even less film grain on display. No way I’d watch that over the UHD.

I think the positives definitely outweigh the negatives and finally with solid encoding on a BD-100, I’m good with this for the time being.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#34 Post by MichaelB » Fri Oct 25, 2024 6:52 am

I assume from the fact that you didn't mention it (which you surely would have done!) that Amazon.it's infuriatingly vague implication that it only has Italian dubbing is completely untrue?

(I actively want an Italian track, but I also very much want the English one too!)

nicolas
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#35 Post by nicolas » Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:03 am

MichaelB wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2024 6:52 am
I assume from the fact that you didn't mention it (which you surely would have done!) that Amazon.it's infuriatingly vague implication that it only has Italian dubbing is completely untrue?

(I actively want an Italian track, but I also very much want the English one too!)
Eagle has got you covered. Italian 2.0 and English 5.1 mixes are included. A member at the other forum also posted this: “movie's duration is 165m49s and opening and closing credits are in english”

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#36 Post by MichaelB » Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:38 am

That all sounds fine, and we're clearly not going to get a better version any time soon - thanks!

It would have been perverse to have dropped the English track, assuming Eagle had a similar contract to the standard one, in which permitted languages are the language of the territory being licensed and the film's original language (if different).

(Sometimes more than one language can count as "original", hence Indicator's Invincible being presented in English and German and The Valachi Papers being presented in English and Italian - although, as with Once Upon a Time in the West, English is clearly the optimum language in all cases.)

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tenia
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#37 Post by tenia » Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:54 am

nicolas, have you compared the Eagle UHD to the Paramount UHD, and if so : does the difference in encode really alleviate the textural issues of the Paramount UHD, or was it always really a baked-in issue of grain management in the restoration (which is my POV) ?

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#38 Post by nicolas » Fri Oct 25, 2024 8:31 am

tenia wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:54 am
nicolas, have you compared the Eagle UHD to the Paramount UHD, and if so : does the difference in encode really alleviate the textural issues of the Paramount UHD, or was it always really a baked-in issue of grain management in the restoration (which is my POV) ?
I haven’t. I cancelled my Paramount UHD order after Eagle revealed that they’re releasing the film. I can only say that the total disc size of the Eagle is 92 GB with the film and no bonus features on it compared to the 55 (!) GB film file size on the Paramount, so we’re looking at 30+ GB more on the Eagle. The grain management is baked in, sadly but there are no additional compression issues on top of that with Eagle. It’s not beautiful but I’ve seen a lot worse to be honest, such as Godard’s Alphaville from Kino to name a recent example.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#39 Post by tenia » Fri Oct 25, 2024 8:42 am

I guess it at least puts to bed the idea that the DNRed-like aspect of the Paramount discs were not just a matter of compression, but that the issues stem from the restoration.
Not a surprise for me (like, really not), but at least, some will have to stop diverting the issue to the compressionist and have to accept the restoration's team at Paramount is to blame.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#40 Post by MichaelB » Fri Oct 25, 2024 8:49 am

The Eagle is clearly the one to go for, but it'll be interesting to see a detailed comparison between the two discs, as I'm sure someone will be posting before too long.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#41 Post by nicolas » Mon Oct 28, 2024 4:17 pm

If anyone wishes to see screenshots of the four new 4K restorations of Truffaut's The Soft Skin, Two English Girls, The Woman Next Door and Confidentially Yours that were released by Carlotta on UHD, see here.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#42 Post by tenia » Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:38 pm

nicolas wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2024 1:32 pm
tenia wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2024 8:03 am
I can (like others before me) confirm that To Catch A Thief's UHD is in part / often re-using the same source than what was used for the 2012 BD, albeit with a new color grading (and often slight differences in framing).
I’ve read the HTF thread after someone at BR shared a link and my God what a sh*tshow. Hats off for sticking in there for so long and delivering constructive arguments whereas no one, not even Robert Harris had anything remotely valid to contribute. This was a constant streak of dismissal, neglect and protective of RAH’s (based) POV that’s been wide so off mark that he locked the thread once it got increasingly difficult to repeat the same defense “arguments” over again. Don’t get me wrong, his achievements in film restoration and getting films saved are remarkable but right now he’s hurting the “business” or community more than he contributes to by firing off his takes and essentially pitting people in the know against those that rigorously defend the opposite which in turn inspires studios like Paramount to continue doing their thing as enough “respectable” voices praise and encourage their doings.
This is getting ridiculous now.
I've found a frame that's so much exactly from the source already used in 2012, it has the same white spot of dust in the exact same place of the frame. EDIT : 2 frames found, actually.
Statements of alternative reality ? From who, exactly ?

nicolas
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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#43 Post by nicolas » Mon Oct 28, 2024 7:16 pm

tenia wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2024 6:38 pm
nicolas wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2024 1:32 pm
tenia wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2024 8:03 am
I can (like others before me) confirm that To Catch A Thief's UHD is in part / often re-using the same source than what was used for the 2012 BD, albeit with a new color grading (and often slight differences in framing).
I’ve read the HTF thread after someone at BR shared a link and my God what a sh*tshow. Hats off for sticking in there for so long and delivering constructive arguments whereas no one, not even Robert Harris had anything remotely valid to contribute. This was a constant streak of dismissal, neglect and protective of RAH’s (based) POV that’s been wide so off mark that he locked the thread once it got increasingly difficult to repeat the same defense “arguments” over again. Don’t get me wrong, his achievements in film restoration and getting films saved are remarkable but right now he’s hurting the “business” or community more than he contributes to by firing off his takes and essentially pitting people in the know against those that rigorously defend the opposite which in turn inspires studios like Paramount to continue doing their thing as enough “respectable” voices praise and encourage their doings.
This is getting ridiculous now.
I've found a frame that's so much exactly from the source already used in 2012, it has the same white spot of dust in the exact same place of the frame. EDIT : 2 frames found, actually.
Statements of alternative reality ? From who, exactly ?
The excerpts from the old master are also identically framed which someone at BR pointed out. The newly restored sections were apparently reframed and corrected using SMPTE charts, which Paramount didn’t do in the past.

Harris’ answer is pathetic and arrogant. It should’ve been the easiest for him to shut you down by bringing clear and precise evidence to the contrary to the discussion but, of course, there isn’t any. And so he just denies. It’s a bit like the Oppenheimer hearing with Jason Clarke in the film’s third act.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#44 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:24 am

All it'll do is me doing further incriminating comparisons, like, frames from the UHD using the same source than the BD down to having the same white dirt in the same spot, and him looking like he can't see the difference between a 17yo 2k master from an IP and a 4yo 4k resto from a OCN. This and blatantly lying, while threatening people not to write what the UHD actually contains.

I used to solely wonder what happened on this release. Now I'm also wondering what's going on with RAH going full alternative facts.

It's not as if numerous other persons hadn't reached the same conclusion too.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#45 Post by nicolas » Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:16 am

I've received Convoy by Studiocanal. This is a brilliant release, UHD and extras-wise.

The restoration was done in competent hands at Silver Salt in London and it shows. So much could've gone wrong here - from the colors, to grain management and poor HDR but this looks as perfect as it can get from a first glance.

UHD is a BD-100 with Dolby Vision and English and French PCM 2.0 audio. Encoding is by VDMS and, as now customary, superb. I haven't seen the film before but was surprised to see that the film is quite fine-grained in the exterior shot, so they probably shot these with a slower stock. Fine-grained however doesn't mean de-grained. It's a truly beautiful image. No complaints at all. This is one of the year's best restorations and paired with a stellar encode, this is a must-have if you're remotely interested in the film. By the way, I can imagine that Kino Lorber will port over the restoration to the US and due to the fine grain, I'm 100% sure that their encoding presets completely ruin the grain structure. Best get the SC and have a fantastic presentation.

But I must say as great as the picture quality is, the film's sound blew me away. This is a fantastic dual mono (?) mix with such rich detail, no apparent filtering or distortion that sounds almost brand new. I'm always stating that I'm no sound expert, so please take my comments here with a little grain of salt but I'd really be surprised if people are disappointed with the audio. It's been a while since I've heard a mix like this for a 70s film, which makes the frequent audio atrocities we're fed even harder to swallow if a quality like the one Convoy got is apparently possible as well.

Extra-wise, also brilliant. We're getting a new Mike Siegel commentary and he also made a new video essay in addition to that. His Passion & Poetry is also included.

If anyone cares about Steelbook packaging, the blue border (front and back) is debossed and certain objects inside the frame are embossed.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#46 Post by cinemaniac » Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:59 pm

Arrow's A Simple Plan booklet credits FiM as authoring the disc. FiM did not repost Arrow's announcement on X. Is this another misprint?

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#47 Post by nicolas » Wed Oct 30, 2024 5:07 pm

cinemaniac wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:59 pm
Arrow's A Simple Plan booklet credits FiM as authoring the disc. FiM did not repost Arrow's announcement on X. Is this another misprint?
FiM did repost the announcement only an hour ago! :)

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#48 Post by cinemaniac » Wed Oct 30, 2024 5:10 pm

nicolas wrote:
cinemaniac wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2024 3:59 pm
Arrow's A Simple Plan booklet credits FiM as authoring the disc. FiM did not repost Arrow's announcement on X. Is this another misprint?
FiM did repost the announcement only an hour ago! :)
Nice! Making me look like a Image


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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#49 Post by Yakushima » Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:23 pm

tenia wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:54 am
nicolas, have you compared the Eagle UHD to the Paramount UHD, and if so : does the difference in encode really alleviate the textural issues of the Paramount UHD, or was it always really a baked-in issue of grain management in the restoration (which is my POV) ?
Caps-a-holic just posted a comparison between Italian (Eagle) and UK 4K UHD versions of Once Upon a Time in the West, and Eagle clearly shows more texture.

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Re: UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

#50 Post by Maladroit Aggregator » Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:13 pm

Yakushima wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:23 pm
tenia wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2024 7:54 am
nicolas, have you compared the Eagle UHD to the Paramount UHD, and if so : does the difference in encode really alleviate the textural issues of the Paramount UHD, or was it always really a baked-in issue of grain management in the restoration (which is my POV) ?
Caps-a-holic just posted a comparison between Italian (Eagle) and UK 4K UHD versions of Once Upon a Time in the West, and Eagle clearly shows more texture.
But it still looks scrubbed compared to the old US BD

SAD!

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