1287 House Party

[hearthesilence]

You mean Chuck D the painter? PE always sucked. I'm not a classic rock cornball, but to be fair, a few reasons hip hop shows don't sell out is because they're not particularly great live acts, its reputation for violence also hurt it. Its culture was always about the club, parties (house or otherwise) and driving — old school is still going strong in all these areas. Walk into any hip restaurant in any major city, various fashion week parties or parties of any kind attended by "cool" people, and your DJ is dropping old school hip hop in their mix. Lastly, hip hop, unlike rock, still exists, so its past in terms of live shows is ephemeral where as the dorks or seniors obsessed with Jackson Brown or gasp, the corpses of Springsteen, Dylan and bands where half or more of their members have been dead for decades roll on because they have nowhere else to go, desperately trying to hold on to a genre that's been lapped mulitple times by other ones with it being clear once and for all it wasn't particularly good in the first place (ask any jazz musician about that). Metal legends Pantera have been touring nonstop, selling well, which, if you know anything about that band, is farcical. There was a clip of Vince Neil on stage going around recently that was a far cry from his days with Janine & Brandy, but alas, that's the human condition. Say what you want about punk, post-punk & no wave, but at least most of those bands had the dignity to keep doing drugs until they went insane or died. Hilariously, believe it or not, a band derivative of all that, Interpol, is a huge all over the globe as a legacy act, selling out stadiums. House Party is terrific and I believe the first VH1 Classic to enter the collection.

If you're never going to appreciate hip-hop (or rock), it's not worth debating over subjective takes on the music, but to clarify some points:

Hip-hop shows DO sell well, the best acts sell out arenas and even stadiums. But unlike other genres, including jazz, the demand for shows put on by legacy artists dries up with a few exceptions. Hip-hop is still very much music for youth, it has not become music strongly associated with older listeners (which has happened with jazz and now rock n' roll), and that's blatantly obvious when I go to hip-hop shows by newer artists compared to anything else. Even shows put on by younger rock acts will draw a sizable share of older listeners. It's great the golden age hip-hop records still get decent streams, but it's unclear how much that benefits the artists now - "Can I Kick It?" famously earns ATCQ zero royalties because Lou Reed gets all of it. (Ironically, the only thing that's sampled is a bass line conceived by Herbie Flowers, not something Reed actually composed.)

And finally, it’s a pretty shakey argument that violence is connected to any lack of success. If anything, the artists I name-checked above made music that criticized violence (some of them were essentially peaceniks). Hip-hop’s massive popularity really ballooned in the mid-to-late ‘90s with gangsta rap, and among the few legacy acts who can command large audiences are acts who were deeply associated with that.

[yoloswegmaster]

I will say though that rap/hip-hop is starting to become less youth-oriented in the last couple of years. The 3 biggest stars in hip-hop at the moment (Kendrick, Drake, and J. Cole) are pushing 40 years old, and they have been the biggest stars for at least the last 10 years. Hell, one of the biggest rap albums of the year was from Clipse, a brother duo who are 52 and 48 years old respectively.

[Black Hat]

You mean Chuck D the painter? PE always sucked. I'm not a classic rock cornball, but to be fair, a few reasons hip hop shows don't sell out is because they're not particularly great live acts, its reputation for violence also hurt it. Its culture was always about the club, parties (house or otherwise) and driving — old school is still going strong in all these areas. Walk into any hip restaurant in any major city, various fashion week parties or parties of any kind attended by "cool" people, and your DJ is dropping old school hip hop in their mix. Lastly, hip hop, unlike rock, still exists, so its past in terms of live shows is ephemeral where as the dorks or seniors obsessed with Jackson Brown or gasp, the corpses of Springsteen, Dylan and bands where half or more of their members have been dead for decades roll on because they have nowhere else to go, desperately trying to hold on to a genre that's been lapped mulitple times by other ones with it being clear once and for all it wasn't particularly good in the first place (ask any jazz musician about that). Metal legends Pantera have been touring nonstop, selling well, which, if you know anything about that band, is farcical. There was a clip of Vince Neil on stage going around recently that was a far cry from his days with Janine & Brandy, but alas, that's the human condition. Say what you want about punk, post-punk & no wave, but at least most of those bands had the dignity to keep doing drugs until they went insane or died. Hilariously, believe it or not, a band derivative of all that, Interpol, is a huge all over the globe as a legacy act, selling out stadiums. House Party is terrific and I believe the first VH1 Classic to enter the collection.

If you're never going to appreciate hip-hop (or rock), it's not worth debating over subjective takes on the music, but to clarify some points:

Hip-hop shows DO sell well, the best acts sell out arenas and even stadiums. But unlike other genres, including jazz, the demand for shows put on by legacy artists dries up with a few exceptions. Hip-hop is still very much music for youth, it has not become music strongly associated with older listeners (which has happened with jazz and now rock n' roll), and that's blatantly obvious when I go to hip-hop shows by newer artists compared to anything else. Even shows put on by younger rock acts will draw a sizable share of older listeners. It's great the golden age hip-hop records still get decent streams, but it's unclear how much that benefits the artists now - "Can I Kick It?" famously earns ATCQ zero royalties because Lou Reed gets all of it. (Ironically, the only thing that's sampled is a bass line conceived by Herbie Flowers, not something Reed actually composed.)

And finally, it’s a pretty shakey argument that violence is connected to any lack of success. If anything, the artists I name-checked above made music that criticized violence (some of them were essentially peaceniks). Hip-hop’s massive popularity really ballooned in the mid-to-late ‘90s with gangsta rap, and among the few legacy acts who can command large audiences are acts who were deeply associated with that.

I was speaking on old school rappers, thought that was the topic, sorry. Obviously, whoever is current is going to sell well regardless. Beyond you saying hip hop exploded in the mid to late 90s being incorrect (it was late 80s/early 90s by the mid 90s hip hop was pop and it's remained that way since, not sure where we're in disagreement. The violence piece was, again, referring to the 90s where it wasn't easy for these acts to books venues. Most of them would actually do college campuses because it was easiest. Hilariously, I once smoked a blunt with Method Man and Redman.

[knives]

Fear of a Black Hat Hot Take

[hearthesilence]

I was speaking on old school rappers, thought that was the topic, sorry. Obviously, whoever is current is going to sell well regardless. Beyond you saying hip hop exploded in the mid to late 90s being incorrect (it was late 80s/early 90s by the mid 90s hip hop was pop and it's remained that way since, not sure where we're in disagreement. The violence piece was, again, referring to the 90s where it wasn't easy for these acts to books venues. Most of them would actually do college campuses because it was easiest. Hilariously, I once smoked a blunt with Method Man and Redman.

Let me tweak what I said earlier and add the above - the biggest-selling hip-hop acts in the late 80s/early 90s were essentially bubblegum pop, from "Bust a Move" to Hammer and Vanilla Ice. But then SoundScan changed everything, and the big revelations were how popular hardcore gangsta rap (specifically NWA), Garth Brooks and then Nirvana really were. Looking at the earliest diamond-certified albums, you went from Hammer to 2Pac and Biggie, and in between Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg had multiplatinum records with their debuts, but yes, the real-life violence surrounding them made bookings trickier.

[Black Hat]

I don't like this argument because the bubblegum acts you mention, including DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, The Fat Boys, Heavy D, Tone Loc, Salt n Pepa, all played a huge part in the genre's popularity explosion so they can't be dismissed. Back in the day, Kid 'n Play would be lumped in with this group, too. Learning in this thread, one of them is now Bill Maher's head writer, is on brand. There was also the Beastie Boys, Big Daddy Kane, BDP, Slick Rick, Digital Underground (RIP Shock G), Jungle Brothers who were very popular while maintaining their street cred. Most of these people today do numbers but, on youtube doing interviews with DJ Vlad or occasionally are on with Joe Budden. I was in a noodle shop in Chelsea last night that had EPMD's So Whatcha Sayin playing and a bunch of 20 something white women were head bopping. One other factor with what we were discussing earlier is if you want to tour, having a record out helps, very few are still making music. I did see Pete Rock up to something recently, wish I remembered what it was. If you, or anyone else, is interested in this era, I'll give Dante Ross' excellent memoir, Son of the City, a pop

[hearthesilence]

Bubblegum has always been a big part of popular music, I would never dismiss it outright. Every genre has its share, and in this case it was worth pointing out to show how drastically the ubiquitous sounds of hip-hop would've changed over six years. Just to go back further, Run-DMC was actually pretty hard and even avant-garde when you listen to it within the context of what was popular in 1984. So five years later, when Hammer was massive, that probably felt like an enormous development to see hip-hop become a large part of mainstream children's culture, not just "older" youth culture, so there's no doubt bubblegum played a huge role in hip-hop's growing popularity.

Pete Rock just produced Common's latest album, and honestly it's one of the best things either has ever done. I think Common was still putting out great tracks, but it's been a very long time since he's made an album that was end-to-end this strong. (I'd definitely say it's one of his three or four best albums.) Pete's been active all this time, but usually remixing something - it's a pretty inspired (and possibly risky) choice asking someone old school to produce an entire album now, but Common's up there in years too. LL Cool J did the same with Q-Tip and likewise it's not only his best in a very long time, overall it's probably one of his three best albums period. (FWIW, the Clipse album mentioned above didn't do much for me. I still only go back to their first two, mainly the second.)

[tolbs1010]

The Golden Age of Hip-Hop indeed. I have to agree with Chuck D, it's insane all the greats from this era aren't playing sold-out arenas in stark contrast to the legacy artists in rock.

Could it be that hip-hop fans are less inclined to consistently PAY for music? This is a general music industry problem due to everything being available for free, but the artists that still survive/thrive are the ones who can fill live venues consistently. If hip-hop fans wanted to pay to see these supposed legends they would be making a nice living from it, no? Some of them could/do at a more modest level. There simply isn't a big market for it. Are they too 'legendary' to play a bunch of small club dates, casinos, or county fairs year after year? That's where old rock/pop artists are still making a living. They accept the level of demand that exists for their music and they put forth the work ethic to fill that demand because they LOVE making a living playing music.

I also think Black Hat makes a valid point that live hip-hop is generally less compelling than seeing skilled musicians play instruments, though some hip hop acts through the years have done cool stuff with live bands. Touring with a live band is expensive and cuts into the profit margin of the artist/group on the marquee.

One of the more interesting developments in the music industry in recent years is pop and rock acts trying to make inroads into country music. Why is that? Because country music fans are more inclined to PAY for music and show up in droves to shows, no matter how godawful most of these modern country music performers are.

It's all about demand and what people are willing to spend their money on.

[hearthesilence]

The Golden Age of Hip-Hop indeed. I have to agree with Chuck D, it's insane all the greats from this era aren't playing sold-out arenas in stark contrast to the legacy artists in rock.

Could it be that hip-hop fans are less inclined to consistently PAY for music? This is a general music industry problem due to everything being available for free, but the artists that still survive/thrive are the ones who can fill live venues consistently. If hip-hop fans wanted to pay to see these supposed legends they would be making a nice living from it, no?

I don't know if you missed what immediately followed your quote, but...

I typically see them for FREE and most of the time there's not much of a line.

Again, bear in mind the original topic was about legacy acts. Furthermore, there's no sales data to suggest hip-hop fans in general are less inclined to pay for music, just the opposite.

As for the claim that live hip-hop is generally less compelling than seeing skilled musicians play instruments, like I said, newer acts have no problems filling arenas and I've never been to a Wu-Tang or Kendrick Lamar show over the past decade or two where everyone around me seemed let down by the lack of a band, not when they're repeating nearly every word in highly animated ways, all the more impressive considering how lyrically dense hip-hop is compared to everything else in pop.

[Mr.DarjeelingLimited]

This is an alright film but not sure what warranted a release. Sure it is a fun 90’s film with relevance to that period of filmmaking but like it’s not anything groundbreaking. This kind of just feels like a hey we could put this out release

[beamish14]

This is an alright film but not sure what warranted a release. Sure it is a fun 90’s film with relevance to that period of filmmaking but like it’s not anything groundbreaking. This kind of just feels like a hey we could put this out release

It’s popular and I think definitely a nostalgic title for some.

Its inclusion in the National Film Registry is more mystifying to me

[Mr.DarjeelingLimited]

DELAYED TO NOVEMBER.

[nicolas]

DELAYED TO NOVEMBER.

January 27. https://www.criterion.com/films/34866-house-party

[DimitriL]

Its inclusion in the National Film Registry is more mystifying to me.

I thought the registry's explanation was quite satisfactory, defining it as a major cultural force.

"House Party joins the registry as a 1990 comedy landmark, as it put Black teenagers, hip-hop music and New Jack swing culture directly into the American cultural mainstream."

(And as someone pointed out, it was a positive and joyful depiction of black teenage life, which really hadn't been seen since, what, Cooley High?)

[Mr.DarjeelingLimited]

DELAYED TO JANUARY, fixed lol. I didn’t even notice I wrote November instead.

January 27. https://www.criterion.com/films/34866-house-party

[Gregory]

House Party has some fine jokes and comedic bits, a nice George Clinton cameo, and more. but the interplay between characters and plot isn't its strong suit. Play in particular ends up coming across as an immature, selfish asshole. And yes, I'm taking into account that he's high-school aged.

It seems like Hudlin wrote the film for the cast members in a way that affords the film more depth than just a wacky party movie. For example, Kid struggles with bullies who make jokes about his mother, whom he mentions is dead and followed by a conversation with his father about this. IRL Kid's mother indeed passed away when he was young.
---
PS it also employs that staple of comedies of that era, the from-inside-the-toilet POV shot. I don't know if contemporary comedy shows or movies still use it much,

[beamish14]

---
PS it also employs that staple of comedies of that era, the from-inside-the-toilet POV shot. I don't know if contemporary comedy shows or movies still use it much,

I definitely remember microwave interior shots being a staple for a while, but can’t immediately think of too many toilet POVs

[CSM126]

There’s always The Worst Toilet in Scotland, which is also in a Criterion film.