The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[Steven H]

#2! That's love. Blue Dahlia and The Glass Key are both going on mine because of the Lake / Bendix / Ladd hard boiled superteam, where usually I'm a sucker for mood and expressionist style in my noir, that trio reels me in just by their presence in those. Regarding Hathaway, I'm talking about the CLASSIC Fox noirs (Dark Corner, House on 92nd st., 14 Hours, Kiss of Death, Call Northside 777) which I hope you'd consider "essential", yojimbo. Made around the same time, I'd put his noirish 13 Rue Madeline in a "Spy Movie List" any day.

[Yojimbo]

Interesting rarely seen noir, 'The Sound of Fury' [US title, 'Try and Get Me'], on UK Channel Four tonight, 2.55 AM

[Yojimbo]

#2! That's love. Blue Dahlia and The Glass Key are both going on mine because of the Lake / Bendix / Ladd hard boiled superteam, where usually I'm a sucker for mood and expressionist style in my noir, that trio reels me in just by their presence in those. Regarding Hathaway, I'm talking about the CLASSIC Fox noirs (Dark Corner, House on 92nd st., 14 Hours, Kiss of Death, Call Northside 777) which I hope you'd consider "essential", yojimbo. Made around the same time, I'd put his noirish 13 Rue Madeline in a "Spy Movie List" any day.

That Lake / Bendix / Ladd combination doesn't hold up too well for me, Steven: almost like a 'pastiche' of noir when I watch it now: none of the trio's films will make my Top 10, although they may make the list
(Ladd being famously short might have something to do with it).

Yes to 'Kiss of Death', and 'Call Northside 777': I don't think I've yet seen 'Dark Corner' although I'm sure the DVD must be around here somewhere
Basehart stars in '14 Hours': 'D'Oh',....although it might only make the lower reaches of my list.
Don't recall 'House on 92nd st' being anywhere near as impressive as 'Call Northside 777' although that documentary style was most impressive in the latter, and I'll give it serious consideration for that

[Steven H]

I really like Dark Corner. Lucille Ball is surprisingly good at playing an even keel in a gritty crime film. Add in Clifton Webb, Bendix, and the Joe MacDonald factor and you have a solid winner. Plus, the dialogue is easily above average. This line between two cops near the end in an art gallery is GOLD: cop 1: "Hey mac. You s'pose anybody in his right mind ever buys a piece a'junk like that?" cop 2: Sure they do! It's AHT!"

[Yojimbo]

I really like Dark Corner. Lucille Ball is surprisingly good at playing an even keel in a gritty crime film. Add in Clifton Webb, Bendix, and the Joe MacDonald factor and you have a solid winner. Plus, the dialogue is easily above average. This line between two cops near the end in an art gallery is GOLD: cop 1: "Hey mac. You s'pose anybody in his right mind ever buys a piece a'junk like that?" cop 2: Sure they do! It's AHT!"

I didn't so much care for 'Laura' because of Clifton Webb: I thought his witticisms distracted too much from the noir aspects
(hard to please, aren't I?)

I also have another unwatched Lucille Ball: 'Lured'
Have you seen it?

[Steven H]

Hopefully I'll get around to Lured. Not liking Webb or Bendix! Film noir Jesus is up in heaven shaking his head in sorrow right now.

[domino harvey]

Columbia Noir Vol 2 Round Two: City of Fear sports some nice framing and other windowdressing but Christ is the film goofy as hell. Goofy, now there's a word that you love to see associated with noir. A retread of the Killer That Stalked New York, this time with a canister of radioactive material, "Cobalt-60-- the deadliest substance on Earth!" The tiresome insanity of the antics and actors are proof that the off-kilter aesthetics of Samuel Fuller can't be duplicated. It doesn't help that the profound ending made me laugh out loud-- it's the unintentioned equivalent of that scene in Kicking and Screaming where someone breaks a glass and they just rope off that area of the kitchen and put a sign warning of broken glass.

[Yojimbo]

Hopefully I'll get around to Lured. Not liking Webb or Bendix! Film noir Jesus is up in heaven shaking his head in sorrow right now.

I'm sure He'll get over it.
He's had worse to deal with!

[Yojimbo]

City of Fear sports some nice framing and other windowdressing but Christ is the film goofy as hell. Goofy, now there's a word that you love to see associated with noir.

Stop, =; you're making me jealous.
Ever since the final frame of 'Murder By Contract', I've been counting the days :-" until my friendly neighbourhood postman delivers the package into my hot, sweaty hands
(DD shipments have been quicker, recently, but I reckon it'll still be another week, at least)

[zedz]

Dominating figures? I'm looking at an embarrassing embarrassment of Anthony Mann. I just watched The Tall Target and, even though the period aspect makes it somewhat marginal, the film is so damned flawless I couldn't possibly leave it off. In the 'noir' column is the superb night photography, the isolated detective, the conspiracy angle and even the identity crisis riffs. The big plot 'twists' are unsurprising, but there are constant surprises in the way they're managed. There's a moment of suspense and revelation in the middle of the film (pistol, newspaper) that plays out in a way I'd never have expected. Though if you've seen The Black Book (now, this is a double spoiler, folks, so stay away unless you've seen both films!)

Spoiler

you might not be so surprised to see the hero get shot in the face at point blank range.

The film's so good that it's only after it's all over that you realise you've also just watched one of the all-time-great train films (in a furiously competitive field) and seen a better case made for Dick Powell as serious dramatic actor than Murder, My Sweet. In fact, Mann's almost doing a Jimmy Stewart with Powell in this film. He's that good.

As for the other Manns, T-Men, Raw Deal and The Black Book are obligatory, and I could hardly justify excluding He Walked By Night and Border Incident unless I were deliberately skewing the list to de-Mann it. And, on points, Side Street, Desperate and some of the other early ones (even the very silly Strange Impersonation) should probably beat out some of my lower-runged titles, but I'll probably leave them out in the cold.

I've also been working my way through the Bad Girls of Film Noir sets, but haven't seen anything that's remotely in contention yet, despite some fleeting pleasures (e.g. Lizbeth Scott and Edmond O'Brien in Two of a Kind and glorious Ida in Women's Prison).

[Yojimbo]

Dominating figures? I'm looking at an embarrassing embarrassment of Anthony Mann. I just watched The Tall Target and, even though the period aspect makes it somewhat marginal, the film is so damned flawless I couldn't possibly leave it off.

As for the other Manns, T-Men, Raw Deal and The Black Book are obligatory, and I could hardly justify excluding He Walked By Night and Border Incident unless I were deliberately skewing the list to de-Mann it. And, on points, Side Street, Desperate and some of the other early ones (even the very silly Strange Impersonation) should probably beat out some of my lower-runged titles, but I'll probably leave them out in the cold.

I've also been working my way through the Bad Girls of Film Noir sets, but haven't seen anything that's remotely in contention yet, despite some fleeting pleasures (e.g. Lizbeth Scott and Edmond O'Brien in Two of a Kind and glorious Ida in Women's Prison).

I haven't seen either 'The Black Book' or 'The Tall Target': the latter I would certainly like to see but I've never heard of the former.
T-Men, Raw Deal, He Walked By Night and Border Incident are 'shoo-ins' for my 50: I don't believe in director quotas when it comes to making lists, solely to accommodate some lesser-known films; although Side Street and Desperate might have to 'sweat it out'

[Titus]

I haven't seen either 'The Black Book' or 'The Tall Target': the latter I would certainly like to see but I've never heard of the former.

It also goes by Reign of Terror. I have to agree with zedz's appraisal of Mann's noirs -- I prefer his Westerns, but his run of noirs in the late 40s/early 50s is pretty astonishing as well. The combination of the gorgeous shadowy visuals and visceral, white-knuckle intensity can be absolutely breathtaking. His films seem dangerous in ways that most noirs don't -- there's a nerve-jangling threat of violence hanging over every frame of them. Raw Deal is my favorite -- noir at it's most atmospheric and despairing. If only there was a serviceable DVD available of it.

[zedz]

And seeing The Tall Target reminded me that, great as the Mann / Alton collaboration was, even the Mann noirs that were shot by others, such as this one, Side Street and Desperate, look terrific and characteristically spatially inventive.

And I agree with Titus that Mann is a director that never takes violence for granted. If you wanted to make a list of the most intense moments of violence in American movies, you could probably do a credible job from Mann's films alone:
the climactic moment of The Black Book
the shooting of the hand in The Man from Laramie
the steam room in T-Men
the stripping in Man of the West
the aforementioned newspaper shot in The Tall Target
the shears in The Furies
and there's got to be something comparable in Men in War, though it escapes me at the moment.

Even in the comparatively bloated epics El Cid and Fall of the Roman Empire, Mann manages to make the hand-to-hand combat set pieces credible and meaningful, and thus much more effective than most of what surrounds them.

[Mr Sausage]

And let's not forget the 'combine scene' in Border incident.

[zedz]

And let's not forget the 'combine scene' in Border incident.

Oh, duh! There's probably a scene like this in all of his films, I've just blotted them out. Wait a minute, was there a shot in The Glenn Miller Story where June Allyson actually gets a little brown jug smashed in her face?

[domino harvey]

Fit in Quine's Pushover before the Fourth's festivities and this one fares best so far in the set-- MacMurray is retreading Double Indemnity a bit, but his cop is so dumb and makes such consistently bad choices that the film was a total hoot to watch unfold. There's something to be said for a noir that screws its protagonist solely on his own mistakes and man, this guy just doesn't know when to cut his losses. I also really enjoyed the voyeurism of MacMurray's pal who turns down hanging out with the girl he digs because he prefers watching her from across the street!

[domino harvey]

If Pushover was a film about stupid people, the Brothers Rico is a film by stupid people. Oh lord is this talky, grating, obvious mob film awful! Assuming anyone makes it through the first ten minutes of annoying coupledom, you're treated to dry, TV blockings and nonsensical plotting. This is the kind of film that doesn't even bother with a finale because how many people are going to make it that far?

[Yojimbo]

If Pushover was a film about stupid people, the Brothers Rico is a film by stupid people. Oh lord is this talky, grating, obvious mob film awful! Assuming anyone makes it through the first ten minutes of annoying coupledom, you're treated to dry, TV blockings and nonsensical plotting. This is the kind of film that doesn't even bother with a finale because how many people are going to make it that far?

all I need for you to say now, domino, is how 'rubbish' Human Desire is, and that Fritz Lang was a hack!

I saw 'the Brothers Rico' at the same time as 'Nighfall' as it was part of a Channel Four noir season, and I certainly wasn't taking any illicit drugs when I was watching them, but I remember preferring it to Karlson's more feted 'Phenix City Story'

[Steven H]

Chalk me up as a big fan of The Scar (aka Hollow Triumph, 1948) directed by Steve Sekely. The towering figure of this film is most certainly John Alton and it looks as deliriously beautiful as his best Mann work, with every frame pulsing with creative chiaroscuro. The dialogue and pace are fine but the pithy melodrama between Henreid and Bennett (who I do like individually in the film), mixed with the staid karmic retribution angle of the conclusion, kinda drag the film down a bit (minor quibbles, though compared to how much I enjoyed it). The murky and mysterious opening scenes in the underground gambling parlor, Henreid getting henpecked at various chump jobs, and the visually pitch perfect final shot of the film are just a few of the standout moments that spring to mind. Easily making my list.

[Yojimbo]

Chalk me up as a big fan of The Scar (aka Hollow Triumph, 1948) directed by Steve Sekely. The towering figure of this film is most certainly John Alton and it looks as deliriously beautiful as his best Mann work, with every frame pulsing with creative chiaroscuro. The dialogue and pace are fine but the pithy melodrama between Henreid and Bennett (who I do like individually in the film), mixed with the staid karmic retribution angle of the conclusion, kinda drag the film down a bit (minor quibbles, though compared to how much I enjoyed it). The murky and mysterious opening scenes in the underground gambling parlor, Henreid getting henpecked at various chump jobs, and the visually pitch perfect final shot of the film are just a few of the standout moments that spring to mind. Easily making my list.

I've actually had a VHS tv recording of 'The Scar' for years, which, from what I recall from scanning it, was akin to poor quality public domain print but I'll definitely check it out before finalising the list

[Steven H]

If it looks that bad, don't bother. There's a nice UK DVD out there and maybe it's on TCM. Even more than any other film I'd recommend, the strength is in the look.

[domino harvey]

all I need for you to say now, domino, is how 'rubbish' Human Desire is, and that Fritz Lang was a hack!

Well... Human Desire is for sure second or third-tier Lang. Poor Gloria Grahame, she really gets kicked around in these Langs! The film's basic flaw is due to Ford's character essentially being outside all the narrative's criminal action, thus having no real stake other than his supposed affection for Grahame. But he's so golden that he can't even do that act which would make him a tragic figure of noir, so he's window-dressing. Broderick Crawford is good as total sleaze but

Spoiler

how in the WORLD did this get released without him getting comeuppance? He kills Grahame and then Ford's goofin' around with his cigarette and that's THE END?! How could the code have let the studio get away with that?

Lang's humor pervades often and that helps, but on the whole the film was a disappointment

[Yojimbo]

all I need for you to say now, domino, is how 'rubbish' Human Desire is, and that Fritz Lang was a hack!

Well... Human Desire is for sure second or third-tier Lang. Poor Gloria Grahame, she really gets kicked around in these Langs! The film's basic flaw is due to Ford's character essentially being outside all the narrative's criminal action, thus having no real stake other than his supposed affection for Grahame. But he's so golden that he can't even do that act which would make him a tragic figure of noir, so he's window-dressing. Broderick Crawford is good as total sleaze but

Spoiler

how in the WORLD did this get released without him getting comeuppance? He kills Grahame and then Ford's goofin' around with his cigarette and that's THE END?! How could the code have let the studio get away with that?

Lang's humor pervades often and that helps, but on the whole the film was a disappointment

I love it for its whole sordid, sleazy nature, more than anything.

I'm not a big fan of Glenn Ford: in this, as in 'The Big Heat' , - and, for the most part, in 'Gilda', - his favoured expression is 'sourpuss'.
Gloria Grahame is noir gold, and Broderick Crawford is a great gruff, brooding presence, though.

I'd love to see Renoir's 'original'

[Yojimbo]

Columbia Noir Vol 2 Round Two: City of Fear sports some nice framing and other windowdressing but Christ is the film goofy as hell. Goofy, now there's a word that you love to see associated with noir. A retread of the Killer That Stalked New York, this time with a canister of radioactive material, "Cobalt-60-- the deadliest substance on Earth!" The tiresome insanity of the antics and actors are proof that the off-kilter aesthetics of Samuel Fuller can't be duplicated. It doesn't help that the profound ending made me laugh out loud-- it's the unintentioned equivalent of that scene in Kicking and Screaming where someone breaks a glass and they just rope off that area of the kitchen and put a sign warning of broken glass.

Just received my box-set: 7 days after notification.
Deep Discount have greatly improved their shipment speeds in the past year or so.

First up: City of Fear

[Yojimbo]

Columbia Noir Vol 2 Round Two: City of Fear sports some nice framing and other windowdressing but Christ is the film goofy as hell. Goofy, now there's a word that you love to see associated with noir. A retread of the Killer That Stalked New York, this time with a canister of radioactive material, "Cobalt-60-- the deadliest substance on Earth!" The tiresome insanity of the antics and actors are proof that the off-kilter aesthetics of Samuel Fuller can't be duplicated. It doesn't help that the profound ending made me laugh out loud-- it's the unintentioned equivalent of that scene in Kicking and Screaming where someone breaks a glass and they just rope off that area of the kitchen and put a sign warning of broken glass.

I think we largely agree on this one, domino: kudos to Lerner to not going down the 'cash-in' route by duplicating the 'formula' of 'MBC', but although its a lotta fun, done with great brio, and a wonderful mix of strait-laced and hysterical performances its just not different enough to have the same impact.

And I think 'gobsmacked' is the preferred word here for that ending!

(btw, do you think Lerner might have been a 'leg-man'??)
btw2, does anybody know has Los Angeles changed much over the past 50 years?