93 Black Narcissus

[HerrSchreck]

In terms of PQ, NARCIS dserved an upgrade a helluva a lot more than, say, 3RD MAN, which was actually a pretty solid set for such an old release. Just look at Gary's caps. Can you figure out easily which is the old and which is the new?


Sure I know the pictureboxing border gives it away.. but only adds fuel to the argument that the new transfer was definitely NOT an emergency. So a new transfer came around, big whoops. BN's new transfer's been around too for awhile.

[Tommaso]

I'm not even sure that I like the stronger contrast on the new one. I'll definitely wait till the new set comes up in an amazon sale or something. Though I could need an update of my old German disc of this....

[Darth Lavender]

I dont think CC will go HD until it takes over the industry and SD occupies as small a corner as HD does now. With specialty titles like this I don't think they can afford to be manufacturing/encoding two different sets, designs, etc. Too costly for arthouse home vid. Until they go all the way over, I don't we'll see a drop.

Like pictureboxing, they're going to keep their nose in where the mass market is. ANd its still in SD.

However, like I said in another thread, the whole point of Criterion is that it's supposed to be "the best"
Criterion isn't about the 'mass market' (think the mass market will pay $50 for a movie?) It's supposed to be about the serious videophiles and cinema enthusiasts.

People pay extra for the Criterion edition because they want the highest quality, and the highest quality now is High Definition.
In "SD" days, one would buy a Criterion DVD and say the movie can't look any better than this (except in a theatre) But, now, I see each new Criterion release as intentially 'second rate' Now, second-rate may still look pretty good, but it kind of defeats the whole purpose of a definitive release (which is what Criterion is supposed to be about.)

[Napoleon]

Doesn't matter if HD is the best, the take up of it isn't significant enough just yet. They have to sell an average of X amount per release to turn a profit and there are not enough HD customers out there at the moment to sell X amount.
Factor in the uncertainty generated by the format war and I can't see criterion committing to HD in the near future.

[Darth Lavender]

"Committing," certainly no. I'd expect Criterion to do dual releases for a while (heck, they have to prepare a HD master anyway, so it's not like it would cost all that much more. Especially since they'd probably charge something ridiculous for the HD edition)

Just saying, as a HD-Drive owner, my mindset when I'm buying an SD these days is usually either;
"It's a seventy year old Japanese movie that will always look soft. It's the very best this film is ever going to look, and all those extras make this a definitive release."
or
"It probably won't be released on HD for a long time, if ever; I'll pick up this bare-bones copy to watch in the meantime."

The idea of buying a 'premium' SD just strikes me as a little ridiculous these days.

[zedz]

I dont think CC will go HD until it takes over the industry and SD occupies as small a corner as HD does now. With specialty titles like this I don't think they can afford to be manufacturing/encoding two different sets, designs, etc. Too costly for arthouse home vid. Until they go all the way over, I don't we'll see a drop.

Like pictureboxing, they're going to keep their nose in where the mass market is. ANd its still in SD.

However, like I said in another thread, the whole point of Criterion is that it's supposed to be "the best"
Criterion isn't about the 'mass market' (think the mass market will pay $50 for a movie?) It's supposed to be about the serious videophiles and cinema enthusiasts.

People pay extra for the Criterion edition because they want the highest quality, and the highest quality now is High Definition.
In "SD" days, one would buy a Criterion DVD and say the movie can't look any better than this (except in a theatre) But, now, I see each new Criterion release as intentially 'second rate' Now, second-rate may still look pretty good, but it kind of defeats the whole purpose of a definitive release (which is what Criterion is supposed to be about.)

The reductio ad absurdum of this is Criterion marketing lovely new 'collectors' 35mm prints to two or three collectors in opulent velvet-lined boxes. If the sole aim is to be definitive, isn't that the way to go?

Certainly back in the laserdisc days, Criterion was marketing itself to the nichiest of the niche, but when they upgraded to DVD they happened to hit paydirt, and ended up as the 'premier publisher' of a genuine mass market.

It would be commercial suicide for them to shun that mass market now and head back to the tiny elitist niche. The SD to HD transition is a completely different commercial prospect (mass to niche) than the LD to DVD one was (old niche to new niche), and I doubt Criterion will make the leap until HD uptake is much, much greater. And even then, I doubt they could afford to do so with every release. They might make some headway with an HD Last Emperor, but how many people are really in the market for an HD Mala Noche?

[Tommaso]

They will only go HD at a time when it has become the standard, or at least when basically everyone has an all-format player. The films CC release, despite the company's relative success, are far too special (and thus indeed 'niche') to be released in more than one format at the same time. Everything else would be commercial suicide. I guess it will take at least four or five years before that happens.

[HerrSchreck]

Thanks z...

The logic is so upside down and ignorant of a desire to see these guys stay in sensible business-- who is releasing arthouse on HD anyway, that makes CC no longer the "best" versions of the titles they put out? HD may be the best for SPIDERMAN, but are CC really being trumped in the SYMBIOTAXIPLASM market?

And why single out CC? Why not MoC, BFI too? Why not get on Kino's ass for not only not releasing a marginal title like WARNING SHADOWS in an FWMS-shunning NTSC-exclusive transfer... but for not releasing it in HD and Blu-Ray, with a huge book in each, and a vial of Robison's DNA, some of Kortners petrified poop, and a coupon for a free bachelor party in Scores (to market to the like nine people across the globe who've even heard of the pic).

[Darth Lavender]

The logic is so upside down and ignorant of a desire to see these guys stay in sensible business-- who is releasing arthouse on HD anyway, that makes CC no longer the "best" versions of the titles they put out? HD may be the best for SPIDERMAN, but are CC really being trumped in the SYMBIOTAXIPLASM market?

And why single out CC? Why not MoC, BFI too?

On the subject of art-house on HD, we've already got Ran and Fear & Loathing.

Taking the opposite "reductio ad absurdum" wouldn't it be better business for Criterion to have released Symbiotaxiplasm bare-bones and at a higher RRP? Is there really any chance of them being trumped there?

As for why I don't single out MoC, most of their output is the type of thing I described earlier; very old films, sometimes surviving only in problematic prints, which simply can not look any better than SD.
BFI, I've simply never taken much notice of. Don't own a single one of their releases. Seems there's usually a better version available from MoC or Criterion or Madman Australia.

Also, although it's generally impolite to use caps, I said this earlier and everyone seems to have missed it; I DON'T THINK CRITERION SHOULD ONLY PRODUCE HD EDITIONS

[HerrSchreck]

On the subject of art-house on HD, we've already got Ran and Fear & Loathing.

Well that about covers it-- I guess that about wraps Arthouse all up..

I had no idea so much was out already.

[arsonfilms]

I had actually been under the impression that the prints used for the HD Ran and Fear and Loathing weren't all the great anyway, with Criterion's SD releases still trumping them.

I know we've discussed it before, but there isn't a single HD division at any studio that isn't operating at a loss. We always talk about how "if Kevin Smith/Michael Bay/etc. bring in the income for more Ozu/Renoir/etc., then fine by me," but an HD division at Criterion would promise the opposite. It would eat up all the resources better served by bringing out all of the wonderful new discoveries we've been having. Ask yourself if a BluRay Rules of the Game would be worth sacrificing this months entire release slate.

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

HD is the living embodiment of the law of diminishing returns. I think it's all a corporate scam. Long live SD, video medium of the people!

[skuhn8]

How long did it take for the CC to go anamorphic with their releases? Well after it was quite obvious in the marketplace that that would be the norm. and then coming out with windowboxing against the tide of emerging technology. Yeah, the Wacky-C Blu-ray line is right around the corner though.

[starmanof51]

The French Warner's Black Narcissus - is it OOP already? It looks like only used copies available on amazon.fr.

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

I bought mine a few weeks ago from xploitedcinema.

[Cash Flagg]

I bought mine a few weeks ago from xploitedcinema.

They are no longer carrying it. A shame - the transfer looked tremendous. The Network is £7.98 from Amazon.co.uk right now, so I may have to make do with that one.

[Ivy Mike]

Well, you can still get it...if you're willing to pay 90 bucks for the collection at xploited (Blimp, Red Shoes, 49th Parallel, and BN). Just depends on how bad you want the best transfer, considering the cost.

I read up on comparisons, etc. before making the decision and am still waiting on mine to arrive - unfortunately, The Red Shoes is apparently a pretty weak transfer (altho not a lot of digital manipulation) and The 49th Parallel isn't as good as the Criterion. So, it'd really be for the extras on those two films plus the other two, which I felt were worth it (altho it seems there's some ambiguity on how great the Blimp transfer actually is - but DVDTimes had great things to say about it).

[Morgan Creek]

The gorgeous Lumiere edition (French Warners) is apparently still available at FNAC.

[der_Artur]

Did you receive it? I ordered it twice there and both times my order was cancelled.

[ellipsis7]

BTW ITV DVD are releasing BLACK NARCISSUS on Blu Ray on 16th June...

[Morgan Creek]

Did you receive it? I ordered it twice there and both times my order was cancelled.

No, sorry - got mine from Amazon.fr back when it was first released. FNAC sometimes has the bad habit of leaving unavailable material on its website (even though it promises delivery in 4 to 8 days).

BTW ITV DVD are releasing BLACK NARCISSUS on Blu Ray on 16th June...

Does anyone know yet whether this will in fact be region-coded?

[zone_resident]

Just a note that the excellent Warner edition from France (R2) is still available at Chalet Films. I ordered it yesterday for 25.10 Euros, and received the shipping notice today.

[Anonymous]

What about The Film then, all you Technogeeks? (I have the CC, and it looks stunning on my old tv. I think I have a problem or two with this whole HD thing....but I digress...)

Kathleen Byron is the embodiment of The Scariest Bitch Ever, in this film. Yes? What they do to her face/eyes at the end has always haunted me. I think this is another under-rated film. Incredibly erotic!

[Matt]

What about The Film then, all you Technogeeks? (I have the CC, and it looks stunning on my old tv. I think I have a problem or two with this whole HD thing....but I digress...)

Kathleen Byron is the embodiment of The Scariest Bitch Ever, in this film. Yes? What they do to her face/eyes at the end has always haunted me. I think this is another under-rated film. Incredibly erotic!

Well, there you go. What more could possibly be said about The Film?

[Tommaso]

Well, there you go. What more could possibly be said about The Film?

Oh, we could talk endlessly about its elaborate and symbolic colour schemes, that GLORIOUS technicolor (not so glorious on the CC, though), the first 'composed film'-sequence in Powell's work, the possible reference to Cocteau's "La belle et la bete" (remember those winding curtains when Byron flees from the monastery?), the conflicting approaches to love and religion as embodied by Sister Ruth, Sister Clodagh and Kanchi (and how great Jean Simmons is in that role!), and so on...

"Black Narcissus" is hardly an underrated film, though. Not at the time of its release nor here in this forum. I haven't met anyone who has seen it who wasn't absolutely stunned by the experience.