Rainer Werner Fassbinder

[kieslowski_67]

I would recommend not tackling any of the pre-Merchant films until you've come to terms with post-Sirk Fassbinder (unless you're a huge Paul Morrissey fan, in which case you should head straight for Whity). And there are a couple of films that I think are just failures (Querelle and Lili Marleen - which isn't even an interesting failure)

I don't want to argue against you or anything, I'm just curious what it was you didn't like about Lili Marleen? I saw a print of it just a few months ago and absolutely loved it.

Does anybody know where I can get a german language/english subtitled copy of this? I know there are a few English-dubbed bootlegs floating about and a non-subtitled German DVD. Am I just out of luck?

There have only been 2 DVD releases for "lili Marleen" so far. One is the German DVD you mentioned, the other is a Japanese release based on a bad print. And no English subtitle was provided.

Fassbinder's masterpiece, IMHO, will always be "Berlin Alexanderplatz". This is his towering achievement, and no worse than a top 15-25 movie of all time. His other great works include: Ali, Maria Braun, Veronica Voss, and Merchant of all seasons.

I just watched Martha and loved it ... There are mirrors used throughout this film, and we are constantly seeing Martha and Helmut through them. Any thoughts as to why that may be? It looked more like a Sirk film than any other RWF film (that I have seen), and I don't know if the use of mirrors is purely aesthetic or if it's something more. Either way, it was obviously a very conscious choice by Fassbinder. Any ideas?

Yes. I'd also like to get opionion on the heavy use of mirror shots in "lili marleen'. I never really figured that out.

[jorencain]

Fassbinder's masterpiece, IMHO, will always be "Berlin Alexanderplatz". This is his towering achievement, and no worse than a top 15-25 movie of all time. His other great works include: Ali, Maria Braun, Veronica Voss, and Merchant of all seasons.

I'm afraid you're going to have to add Fox and His Friends, In A Year Of 13 Moons, and Martha to that list. I do love the BRD trilogy, but these 3, for me, stand out as Fassbinder's greatest films; of those that I've seen anyway. They are representative of his themes of alienation and power, although each one expresses them in a different, original and, beautifully sincere way. I can't wait to see "Berlin Alexanderplatz" though.

[kieslowski_67]

Fassbinder's masterpiece, IMHO, will always be "Berlin Alexanderplatz". This is his towering achievement, and no worse than a top 15-25 movie of all time. His other great works include: Ali, Maria Braun, Veronica Voss, and Merchant of all seasons.

I'm afraid you're going to have to add Fox and His Friends, In A Year Of 13 Moons, and Martha to that list. I do love the BRD trilogy, but these 3, for me, stand out as Fassbinder's greatest films; of those that I've seen anyway. They are representative of his themes of alienation and power, although each one expresses them in a different, original and, beautifully sincere way. I can't wait to see "Berlin Alexanderplatz" though.

These three movies you mentioned are fine, but they are really a tad below both "Ali" and "Maria Braun". Maybe I am wrong. It's pretty tough to sit through the second half of "Fox" and the whole "In a year of 13 moons". They are both too damn depressing.

[iangj]

I'm afraid you're going to have to add Fox and His Friends, In A Year Of 13 Moons, and Martha to that list. I do love the BRD trilogy, but these 3, for me, stand out as Fassbinder's greatest films; of those that I've seen anyway. They are representative of his themes of alienation and power, although each one expresses them in a different, original and, beautifully sincere way. I can't wait to see "Berlin Alexanderplatz" though.

These three movies you mentioned are fine, but they are really a tad below both "Ali" and "Maria Braun". Maybe I am wrong. It's pretty tough to sit through the second half of "Fox" and the whole "In a year of 13 moons". They are both too damn depressing.

I'd agree with Jorencain here. Fear Eats The Soul (I think we non-Americans have problems calling it "Ali") and Maria Braun are great films, but Fox, Martha, and 13 Moons are at least their equals - just a lot less audience-friendly.

In A Year of 13 Moons has a special place in my personal Fassbinder pantheon. I saw it (I think) in 1978, at a film festival screening where it turned up suddenly announced, before any reviews had turned up in any of the film mags; and totally blew me away. Rich, dense, profound, moving, disturbing, comic, tragic. A fantastic film - so much so that the DVD has been sitting on my shelf for months waiting for just the right moment...

[backstreetsbackalright]

For the younger posters I wholeheartedly recommend Chinese Roulette and Whity, then American Soldier. Then maybe Martha and Fox. My current fave is Petra von Kant which I am still putiing up with from a DVDR burn from VHS.

Chinese Roulette's been on the backburner of my rental list for a while now - it's good to hear a rave for it. On the other hand, I found Whity a tad over-the-top. Maria Braun's my favorite of the 10 or so I've seen.

[skuhn8]

There have only been 2 DVD releases for "lili Marleen" so far. One is the German DVD you mentioned, the other is a Japanese release based on a bad print. And no English subtitle was provided.

Fassbinder's masterpiece, IMHO, will always be "Berlin Alexanderplatz". This is his towering achievement, and no worse than a top 15-25 movie of all time. His other great works include: Ali, Maria Braun, Veronica Voss, and Merchant of all seasons.

Haven't yet seen Lili Marleen, but would definitely second your list of "other great works". Hail CC for giving us great productions of three of the four. I gave Lola a second viewing (a third if we include a commentary view) and am more impressed than I was first time around though I still find it by far the weakest link in his BRD Trilogy. It is just a touch too forced and I'm put off a bit by the melodramatic surge of music between scenes, though I suspect this was a wink at Sirk.

I finally saw Whity and thought it was a delightful playful romp. I think he fails to really "say" anything with it (and I do believe there was a socio-political intention behind it) but love to see an artist give in to his excesses once in a while. Merchant of all Seasons is on my list for seond viewings. That one knocked me off my ass. Astounding.

[GringoTex]

And I certainly think the LAST thing he wanted was for people to view his films in some sort of canonical order.

I'm not so sure about that. He's the only director I can think of who compiled a top-ten list of his own films!

[Michael]

Here's Fassbinder's "The Top Ten of My Own Films":

1. Beware of a Holy Whore (1971)
2. In a Year With 13 Moons (1978)
3. Despair (1978)
4. The Third Generation (1979)
5. Gods of the Plague (1970)
6. Martha (1973) (TV)
7. Effi Briest (1974)
8. Ali: Fear Eats the Soul (1974)
9. The Marriage of Maria Braun (1979)
10. The Merchant of Four Seasons (1971)

Fassbinder's "The Ten Best Films":

1. Luchino Visconti, The Damned (1969)
2. Raoul Walsh, The Naked and the Dead (1958)
3. Max Ophüls, Lola Montès (1955)
4. Michael Curtiz, Flamingo Road (1949)
5. Pier Paolo Pasolini, Salò, or the 120 Days of Sodom (1975)
6. Howard Hawks, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (1953)
7. Josef von Sternberg, Agent X27 (US release title: Dishonored) (1931)
8. Charles Laughton, The Night of the Hunter (1955)
9. Nicholas Ray, Johnny Guitar (1954)
10. Vasili Shukshin (or Shuksin, Shukchin), Red Elderberry (Kalina Krasnaya) (1974)

Where's Douglas Sirk?!

[zedz]

Even if I thought I could trust Fassbinder on these lists (which I don't as he was too mercurial) he wrote so much about other movies and Sirk in particular I am always inclined to follow my own moods when choosing what to watch of his. Certainly I still find his least interesting movies Effi Briest, Querelle and Despair, all big budget "quality" productions - although all three have elements of interest.

Looks like we could talk about Fassbinder all year. I agree with you on Querelle (a fascinating failure) and Despair (appalling bland, especially given the talent involved), but I find Effi Briest one of his finest achievements. I find it one of his most audacious films from a formal perspective, exploring the syntax of silent cinema (intertitles, irises, constrained movement) to create new effects. In this respect it seems both a descendant of Dreyer's late period and a direct precursor to Veronika Voss, with its own period stylings.

I actually see the film more as a subversion of big budget 'quality' productions, with Fassbinder commenting on the very process of adaptation through his use of text and the ellipses in the adaptation. Plus it looks simply gorgeous on the big screen. The extended gestation of the project shows in the unusual amount of care that's apparent throughout (though I also love the dirty energy of lots of his high-speed endeavours).

[Brian Oblivious]

Here's Fassbinder's "The Top Ten of My Own Films":

Fassbinder's "The Ten Best Films"

When did he make these lists? I notice there's nothing from past 1979; I wonder if he had Berlin Alexanderplatz under his belt at the time, for example.

[Michael]

I got those lists from http://jclarkmedia.com/fassbinder/. According to this site, Fassbinder's lists were compiled a year before his death and came directly from the book called The Anarchy of the Imagination: Interviews, Essays, Notes – Rainer Werner Fassbinder, edited by Michael Tötenberg and Leo A. Lensing. Hope that helps.

[GringoTex]

What do you think of Fasssbinder's relatively few gay themed movies? Especially Year of 13 Moons?

This is purely antecdotal, but I've screened this film a couple of times for audiences and had many discussions about it with various people, and it's the only gay-themed film I can think of that heterosexuals seem to enjoy more than gays.

[ben d banana]

For me, the dry, black humor of Martha, The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant, etc is much more funny than his shrill comedies, which definitely rank at the bottom of my Fassbinder appreciation. Still, I won't deny that the variety of his work, and the differing responses it elicits, is a great deal of the joy in any such discussion.

[GringoTex]

Yes - certainly Fassbinder's corrosive depiction of bourgeois grasping faggots in Fox is certainly unpalatable to audiences of the same. The movie is much more about class, don't you think, with the very daring formal aspect of enaging in an entirely gay (bourgeois) milieu.

Could you expound on this? I'm confused. Which movie is more about class- Fox or 13 Moons?

[Michael]

What do you think of Fasssbinder's relatively few gay themed movies? Especially Year of 13 Moons? ... and Querelle, and Fox, and Petra?

Year of 13 Moons is the best of the lot but I wonder - what is it that makes 13 Moons gay-themed? At most time, I see Elvira simply as a confused person longing to be loved by anyone (man or woman). He sacrifices his sexual gender in the most desperate attempt to win the love of that coporate pig and fails. Returning to his resigned, distant wife, he's dressed back as a man but his wife declines. The film is simply about looking for love and to connect in the confusing, emotionally frozen post-war Germany.

Fox is magnificent and always fascinating. Definitely gay-themed since the majority of the cast is gay. In my opinion, I think Fox should be regarded as one of the five most important gay films of all time. Certainly a big influence on todays gay filmmakers - Gus Van Sant and Todd Haynes to name a couple. Fassbinder's beautiful, incredibly humane, and sensitive performance makes this truly special film. Despite many ugly portraits/pics of Fassbinder posted all over the net, he's surprisingly hot in Fox.

[jorencain]

I just watched "Effi Briest" for the first time, and it's skyrocketing to a very high position on my "Best of Fassbinder" list. I've only seen 12 of his films, but, of those, this is surely one of his best LOOKING films, at the very least. The cinematography is beautiful, and the look of the film is very polished. Just a couple of thoughts:

His use of music (the Beethoven piano sonatas and Saint-Saens score), intertitles, both black and white fades between scenes, and descriptive narration were expertly used. I was afraid of it being way too "talky", but I wasn't bothered by it at all. The action on the screen is indeed secondary much of the time, but the dialogue and narration are so well written and so nice sounding, that just looking at the beautifully composed shots was enough to sustain my visual interest.

I also loved Fassbinder's unique treatment of his source material. So much of the action is described by the narrator, or is given by the intertitles, or in letters written or recieved by the characters. This really makes the audience have to work (in a good way) to catch exactly what's going on, as so many things are just hinted at.

Because of all of these things, I never had the opportunity to be put off by the stilted acting. It's obviously intentional, and I think it works to the benefit of the film. The actors are obviously playing a part, just as the characters are just playing their part in society, afraid to do what they actually want to do, never daring to stick out or be real. There is only one scene (near the end) when Effi breaks from her mold and bursts out from her oppressed state, and the effect is so much greater than it would have been if the acting was more natural throughout the rest of the film. Hanna Schgulla is great in that scene, and it makes it all the more depressing when she sinks back into and accepts her place in society.

Of course, Fassbinder has empathy for all of the characters and is great at showing that none of these characters is "the bad guy". Instetten realizes the position that he's in and that the choices he has made are greatly influenced by society's pressures. It's hard to feel like he's a bad guy; just another victim, like everyone else, of the pressures of dominant society.

Also, Hanna Schygulla looks gorgeous in black and white. She never struck me so much in the other films I've seen her in. (The same phenomenon happens for me with Anna Karina - much better looking in B&W).

Sorry for the haphazard rambling, but I just wanted to get some thoughts down while it was still fresh in my mind.

[Michael]

jorencain, first I love that you use Danny Torrance for your avatar and I agree with your taste in film (most of time).

I've been putting off watching Effi Briest because it a) it appears like a costume drama (not my type) b) based on a novel which is unsual for Fassbinder and his other based on novel film is Querelle which I think is among his weakest efforts c) stars Hanna (not too crazy about her in general and even in any Fassinder films...Margit is the queen! ). All that makes it sound like it might be one of the lesser Fassbinders. But after reading your post, I might be mistaken big time. Effi Briest is now advanced to my must-see shelf.

[jorencain]

Glad I could persuade you. It is very understated, and I was worried about being bored to tears (especially with the 140ish minute runtime), but it really doesn't come off like the usual costume drama. It just really clicked and worked for me; maybe I was just in the right mood. Hopefully you'll enjoy it also, if you get a chance to check it out.

[iangj]

I also loved Fassbinder's unique treatment of his source material. So much of the action is described by the narrator, or is given by the intertitles, or in letters written or recieved by the characters.

Remember that the original title is "Fontane Effi Briest" (Theodor Fontane was the author of the original novel), so Fassbinder was very consciously not only making a literary adaptation, but also making a film about making a literary adaptation.

In fact, the proper title of the film is "Fontane Effi Briest, or, Many who have an inkling of their possibilites and needs and yet accept the ruling system in their head and, therefore, by their deeds strengthen and confirm it absolutely" - which explains why thematically it's so central to Fassbinder's work and why it was such a labour of love for him.

[Martha]

Forgive me if this is old news:

...There is one remaining print of Alexanderplatz, Fassbinder's 15 hour miniseries based on the novel by Alfred Doblin, and its condition is so poor that it can't really be shown. A restoration, spearheaded by the Rainer Werner Fassbinder Foundation (RWFF), at the cost of 450,000 Euros (about $555,000), is underway; the Foundation has also produced a collector's book, including Fassbinder's script, "original drawings to single trick sequences" (presumably that's something akin to a storyboard), excerpts from the novel and selections from the film's original reviews.

The restored print should be ready in time to celebrate the 25th anniversary of Fassbinder's death in 2007, and the Foundation plans to premiere it at Berlinale that year.

From Cinematical.

[kieslowski_67]

I heard that they need 1 million Euro and has secured 550000 so far and are looking for other sources of funding. Three comapnies are interested in releasing it on DVD including Criterion.

[stroszeck]

I was wondering whether the Fassbinder Foundation has plans to re-master any other Fassbinder films for DVD release?

I recently stumbled on a review of a film he did called JAILBAIT in the 70s and noticed that it's not even available on VHS. Turns out it was in Ebert's top 10 list for the year it came out. Now isn't that a film that should be available too? I guess they got too much on their plate at the moment...

[lachenay]

No, it's a rights issue: The film is based on a play, and there was a feud between its author, Kroetz, and Fassbinder when Kroetz saw the finished film. So given the fact that JAILBAIT hasn't appeared in any medium (including retrospectives and festivals) for decades, I assume Kroetz doesn't want the film to be shown. Very sad, and a great loss.

[zedz]

Jailbait is a really interesting film, though I wouldn't say it's one of Fassbinder's greatest. It's like a very Brechtian Gun Crazy or They Live by Night.

Is anybody aware of other Fassbinder films in a similar limbo? I'd love to see Bremen Freedon again, but that seems to be just about as elusive.

[iangj]

What's happening with The Third Generation? - definitely one of Fassbinder's greatest.