Criterion and Dual Format

[dwk]

It'd be nice if someone from Criterion came out and answered a few question about them deciding to go dual-format and what that means for previously released titles, the Eclipse series (I want the Nikkatsu Noir set on Blu-ray), etc.

[vsski]

I'm sure CC wouldn't have gone this route if they would still be selling tons more DVDs than they do BDs. What this really tells me is that the trend many are talking about (especially in studio land) is slowly coming true. Physical media is more and more of a niche market and the buyers of physical media do care about quality and are increasingly going the BD route - I think this is clearly shown by the reaction of this forum where the majority of the people seem BD enabled and welcome the move, as otherwise there would be a huge outcry over paying $10 more for DVDs now.

CC, no matter how popular the brand, is still a niche distributor, as titles like Tokyo Story will never compete with a large big studio title (in terms of units sold), so it makes perfect sense to cater to the majority of their customers and that now seems to have reached the tipping point towards BD (and yes cost of course factor into this big time as well, as the booklets and cases are a big part of the manufacturing cost).

[jindianajonz]

The next time we see an upgrade that's not a redo like Tokyo Story, do you think they'll just throw in the old dvd?

Seems likely -- Paul Schrader said recently that Criterion won't release Mishima on blu-ray until the DVD has sold out "because it changes the packaging". I didn't think that made too much sense, but with hindsight, surely it means they're making it a dual-format release when that time comes?

So if they are waiting for things to sell out now, can we expect more erratic scheduling from blu upgrades that aren't revamps (Madame De and cassavettes style, as opposed to Autumn sonatas and Tokyo story)?

This could explain some long delayed upgrades like BRD and Grey Gardens, maybe they were holding off on some sold out stuff for the format change?

[swo17]

The space problem doesn't make sense, especially since the vast majority of titles will be like this.

For two-disc releases, I actually hope that they come up with something more like the BFI/MoC (i.e. a removable, swinging disc tray) only without the standard Blu-ray banner space at the top of the case. This is primarily because, as I mentioned before, the figure 8 BD cases (e.g. Heaven's Gate) feel flimsier along the back side, without a flat surface for the cover sleeve to rest against. But for the coaster brigade, this would also allow people to remove all trace of any offending bonus discs.

[felipe]

I'm sure CC wouldn't have gone this route if they would still be selling tons more DVDs than they do BDs. What this really tells me is that the trend many are talking about (especially in studio land) is slowly coming true. Physical media is more and more of a niche market and the buyers of physical media do care about quality and are increasingly going the BD route - I think this is clearly shown by the reaction of this forum where the majority of the people seem BD enabled and welcome the move, as otherwise there would be a huge outcry over paying $10 more for DVDs now.

But if DVDs aren't selling a significant amount, why bother to produce all those dvd discs when they could go blu-only? When they add 18 dvd discs to the Zatoichi set, it probably means many people are interested in those 18 discs, or else there would be no reason to spend all that money.

Maybe DVD still accounts for a significant part of their sales, and going dual-format will force all the dvd buyers to pay a little more for the dual-format edition.

[georgec]

The Brazil case fits two discs no problem, they can just have the overlapping discs that way.

http://www.criterionforum.org/DVD-packa ... ction/1087" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That would be my ideal packaging - this way the case sizes are consistent among all the CC BDs.

[ShellOilJunior]

I'm sure CC wouldn't have gone this route if they would still be selling tons more DVDs than they do BDs. What this really tells me is that the trend many are talking about (especially in studio land) is slowly coming true. Physical media is more and more of a niche market and the buyers of physical media do care about quality and are increasingly going the BD route - I think this is clearly shown by the reaction of this forum where the majority of the people seem BD enabled and welcome the move, as otherwise there would be a huge outcry over paying $10 more for DVDs now.

CC, no matter how popular the brand, is still a niche distributor, as titles like Tokyo Story will never compete with a large big studio title (in terms of units sold), so it makes perfect sense to cater to the majority of their customers and that now seems to have reached the tipping point towards BD (and yes cost of course factor into this big time as well, as the booklets and cases are a big part of the manufacturing cost).

3-4 years ago many Criterion enthusiasts seemed to be holding onto DVD for dear life. That was back when not everything was slated for dvd and blu. Many screamed for Blu-ray for titles like Make Way for Tomorrow, Night Train to Munich and the Josef von Sternberg set and the DVD crowd got upset.

I'd be interested in learning CC's sales numbers for dvd v. blu. They must be strong enough for blu to finally go dual format.

[vsski]

But if DVDs aren't selling a significant amount, why bother to produce all those dvd discs when they could go blu-only? When they add 18 dvd discs to the Zatoichi set, it probably means many people are interested in those 18 discs, or else there would be no reason to spend all that money.
Maybe DVD still accounts for a significant part of their sales, and going dual-format will force all the dvd buyers to pay a little more for the dual-format edition.

I didn't mean to imply that DVD is dead just yet, and yes there are enough people who only still buy DVD, but producing separate editions of BDs and DVDs cost a lot of money, with the booklets, covers and box holders, especially digipacks, making up a significant portion of the manufacturing cost. So producing one dual format edition is a significant savings for CC. And while I don't have any insight into sales numbers for DVDs vs. BDs, I'm sure someone cranked the numbers carefully and came to the conclusion that it's time to make the change.

In my opinion aside from some consumers complaining in the near term, the move makes a lot of sense. Those that buy BD basically get the DVDs for free (space concerns aside and as amply shown on this thread there are space saving solutions available for even 3 to 5 disc releases), and those that still only watch DVD get a BD included in case they will be able to upgrade in the future. This way they don't completely alineate this customer base even if it is shrinking, although I'm sure many are complaining to have to pay more right now.
However, keep in mind that the reduced price of DVDs isn't something that CC did from the get go, it was only done a couple of years ago (don't have the exact date anymore) - so now DVDs are back at the old price point where they had been for many years.

[zedz]

I can't imagine I'm alone in having half a dozen friends who enjoy it when I bring a film over to watch and are without blu ray players. No longer will a large portion of my collection need to be watched at my house.

And the fact that I can now watch the DVD on my laptop in bed (or rip stuff to my iPad) means that I'm far more likely to watch the extras than before. But I've always been a big fan of dual-format releases - for me, it's a perfect blend of quality and convenience.

This will be the big benefit for me as well, since I much prefer to listen to commentaries when I'm actually doing something constructive. With the current Blu-only releases, I can only listen to Criterion commentaries in one room, so about the only multi-tasking I can get done is dusting shelves or kevyip ikebana.

[Drucker]

Yes, and Michael's point about watching the extra features is absolutely well-taken. I'm averse to seriously watching a film on anything but my television, but I'm happy to watch interviews and documentaries on laptop/desktop screens.

[Perkins Cobb]

I'm mainly interested in how this change affects the films that would've gone into the presumably-obsolete Eclipse line (which, to me, have been more vital than the main-line selections ever since Eclipse began). Will this be an opportunity to get a lot of those titles on Blu-ray instead of DVD, as we're guessing was the case with Etaix and Zatoichi? Or is the elimination of SD-only releases an indicator that Criterion has embraced Hulu as its dumping ground for films too niche for the main line? If the net result is that fewer films get some kind of disc release, then I'd call the dual format shift a poor trade.

[Lowry_Sam]

Well I've held off commenting because I'm torn. There's enough strong arguments on both sides to prevent me from making a decision. However, I do think that Criterion missed the best time (2-3 years ago) to make the switch. Now most people who are heavily into film such that they want it on film, want it on blu-ray. I'm inclined to think people who are dvd-only either don't care what is available for them to watch & will just take out any old title from what's available at the library or will stream the latest titles they want from online. It's probably too earlier for Criterion to completely phase out dvd's just yet, which is why they are making the move now.

For me the biggest reason against is the sheer amount of plastic/waste that it produces. While it might be nice that I can pop a dvd into my computer or take a disc with me while going away, I rarely do it. I'd much rather have less unused plastic filling up my shelves. But, that being said, I can see how others might make full use of dual editions & that it would help promote sales of discs.

I really hate most multi-disc packaging. The Mel Brooks box/book is a travesty (pages that are supposed to hold the discs separate from the book because of the weight of the discs), the removable multi-disc inserts for 3 disc editions often don't stay lodged in or break, as do the hole rings in the cheaper plastic that is used nowadays, Digibook plastic inlays become unglued from their book & aren't replaceable. It doesn't seem like it would be rocket science to come up with nice sturdy packaging that is more earth friendly & doesn't take up loads of space, and yet no one has really done it fully to my satisfaction. Hence, I am most happy with my French Studio Canal digibooks, which use up much less plastic than any other solution & take up less space on my shelf & second choice (but perhaps better for multi disc) would be the Fox digibooks, which simply allow you to insert the disc into hard cardboard inlay (without a plastic ring). While I'm impressed with fancy packaging & could be swayed to buy something as nice as Zatoichi because of it, I don't think it's particularly necessary for single-title releases. I haven't read 1/4 of the Criterion booklets I own (maybe one day I'll get around to it).

Simpler is better, which is why I though that things would be Blu-ray only by now. With the big studios trending toward blu-ray for big/new titles & archives for everything else, I wouldn't be surprised if Eclipse becomes a made-to-order brand & non-release titles on Hulu will be able to be ordered on DVD-Rs.

[movielocke]

I haven't read 1/4 of the Criterion booklets I own (maybe one day I'll get around to it).

I went through and read all the booklets last year. I'd grab one or two at a time, have them on the nightstand and get through one a night, for the most part, some took several nights, some took less than five minutes. It's really rewarding, almost like reading a schizophrenic version of a history of film.

[Lowry_Sam]

I It's really rewarding, almost like reading a schizophrenic version of a history of film.

Bed-time reading is a good idea. I had just been putting them off as something to get to in my retirement, while sticking to necessary reading now.

[captveg]

This could explain some long delayed upgrades like BRD and Grey Gardens, maybe they were holding off on some sold out stuff for the format change?

Great point about those titles.

[captveg]

For me the biggest reason against is the sheer amount of plastic/waste that it produces. While it might be nice that I can pop a dvd into my computer or take a disc with me while going away, I rarely do it. I'd much rather have less unused plastic filling up my shelves.

While each individual will take on a bit more plastic with each release, overall this is saving tons of the stuff from the manufacturing get go that would be sued for the separate DVD releases.

[Lowry_Sam]

This could explain some long delayed upgrades like BRD and Grey Gardens, maybe they were holding off on some sold out stuff for the format change?

as well as the drop off in # of upgrades listed in a month......perhaps Criterion will only announce those upgrades for those where there's a change in content & just switch packaging to dual format as stock declines for the others.

[movielocke]

I'm sure retailers will much appreciate this change, half the stock half the shelf space.

[alvareo]

And an exciting prospect I just considered: Dual formats would seem to open up the doorway to hybrid Eclipse-type releases that present some films in SD and others in HD where the source materials allow it. This would have been an ideal way to treat the Czech New Wave Eclipse set, for example.

I really hope this is something they explore. Daisies was a missed opportunity,

The Daisies BD25 looks beautiful, I wonder what Criterion would do with it. A stand-alone release wouldn't surprise me, since Janus Films toured it.

[felipe]

I'm sure retailers will much appreciate this change, half the stock half the shelf space.

Why half the stock? If they expected to sell 10 dvds and 10 bds, then they must expect to sell 20 dual-format editions. If they only order half the stock, it means they'll have half the sales.

[Moe Dickstein]

Yes, but they no longer have to guess at what might sell more, Blu or DVD, and retailers like B&N can eventually condense to just one "Criterion" area rather than separate areas for each format.

[felipe]

I'm pretty sure these retailers have numbers to help them judge instead of guessing.

[Lowry_Sam]

I'm pretty sure these retailers have numbers to help them judge instead of guessing.

Insert Twilight Time/SAE joke here.

[Matt]

Yes, but they no longer have to guess at what might sell more, Blu or DVD, and retailers like B&N can eventually condense to just one "Criterion" area rather than separate areas for each format.

My B&N has already had a single Criterion section for years, is that uncommon?

[Lowry_Sam]

Yes, but they no longer have to guess at what might sell more, Blu or DVD, and retailers like B&N can eventually condense to just one "Criterion" area rather than separate areas for each format.

My B&N has already had a single Criterion section for years, is that uncommon?

Yes, none of the 5 B&N's (now 3) in my area ever did & most (but not all) put the box sets behind or near the counter, though one store puts boxes in with the releases.