Criterion and Dual Format

[med]

I laughed because I found it absurd someone actually thinks B&N is only around because of Criterion.

I appreciated the mental gymnastics it took to come up with that post, though I'm aware perhaps I (or anyone else) shouldn't be encouraging further outbursts.

[cdnchris]

Every time I go to a Barnes and Noble it's crowded, but mostly by families. I am guessing most of us don't notice it if you're just making a bee-line to the movies section, but there's a reason their youth book section keeps getting bigger and bigger...

What I said was of course in jest, but you're right. Whenever we go it's usually just to the children's section with my daughter and that area is always busy. If we buy a physical book there now, though, 98% of the time it's for my daughter.

I'm not sure how much longer they'll be around unfortunately, and it has nothing to do with Criterion. I've always bought my books second hand and rarely bought anything new, even from B&N. I've bought a couple "books" on the Nook I inherited from my wife (so I guess that might count as buying something from them for myself.) But my wife buys all of her books now on her Kindle, and that seems to be where everyone is going. Hell, even my mother-in-law, who hates technology, buys her books on a Kindle (which blew my friggin' mind!)

I appreciated the mental gymnastics it took to come up with that post, though I'm aware perhaps I (or anyone else) shouldn't be encouraging further outbursts.

You're of course correct, which is why I'm now done.

[Gregory]

That's totally accurate about the kids' books and family browsing. Sales of books for adults have declined quite a lot, and most of the books at B&N are effectively just shelf-filler. Children's books and juvenile fiction are one of the few areas of mainstream publishing where sales have remained strong, and this is the reason B&N has replaced CD/DVD departments with toy departments. Not many people go to B&N to browse music or movies anymore for obvious reasons, but they'll go to browse kids' books and pick up a toy or two at the same time. Toys, "gift" items, and other little tchotchkes have been a significant source of revenue for large bookstores for a long time, not that this will really help save B&N, which hasn't really had a coherent strategy before or after (CEO) Lynch's resignation. They needed to figure out how to do better with Nook and BN.com years ago. The Nook has been a huge drain on the company, they were unable to unload it onto Microsoft, and now they just seem like they're floundering and don't know what they need to do.

[Black Hat]

My dad, who passed away suddenly earlier this year, taught me many things two of which I was fondly reminded of while reading this thread. First, "An idiot will always be an idiot." Second, "You can't reason with stupidity."

[Noiradelic]

most of the books at B&N are effectively just shelf-filler.

Not contradicting any of your basic points, but according to this NYer piece, the Nook division is the only one that's losing money right now. E-book sales growth overall is cooling off.

[Gregory]

The link doesn't seem to work—try this one. I agree with the spirit of the piece, but it's a very upbeat take on the tough row B&N has to hoe, with some suggestions that go in the right direction but are far easier said than done (namely getting better at actually ordering books and selling them to people—see my comments on this below). The rate of growth of e-book sales may be slowing but the growth continues. The Nook is a huge drain on the company, but they have other major problems as well, and it's impossible for an outsider to get a full accounting of everything that's wrong. It looks to me like they have no clear direction to pull out of this death spiral, but as they have so little brick-and-mortar competition, who knows how long the stores could plug along, especially after an almost inevitable round of closings. But rather than getting into all that right now, I'll just explain better what I meant by

most of the books at B&N are effectively just shelf-filler.

There's an old standby in book retail called the 80/20 rule that says that 80 percent of revenue comes from 20 percent of the titles, and therefore 80 percent of the titles in the store only account for a measly 1/5 of the revenue but take up a lot of real estate. Within that 80 percent are a quite a lot of titles that don't sell at all. Stores such as B&N order this dead weight anyway because it fills out the store, making it look like a halfway respectable place to buy books. This includes a lot of campus bookstores owned by B&N, which want to have a non-textbook book department of trade paperbacks and academic titles that neither students nor anyone else is likely to buy more than a miniscule fraction of.
The stores and warehouses can simply ship the unsold stock back for credit, and the publishers just have to eat the loss, over and over again. A lot of small publishers are pretty much guaranteed to lose money via B&N year after year because they'll order hundreds of copies of books and then ship them all back, often in unsalable condition.

B&N as we know it has never been any good at what I'd call real bookselling: being familiar with what's in print, and using that knowledge to stock the bookstore carefully and to be able to recommend books to customers. They gained their market share before Amazon came along, by means such as developing their own imprint to undercut traditional publishers. They put out very low priced books of works in the public domain, by authors to whom they'll owe no royalties, older nonfiction titles, dodgy translation of the classics, hastily assembled coffee table books, etc. at prices so low that browsers snap them up. The kinds of things that helped make them what they are in the '80s and '90s haven't helped them compete against Amazon, change with the times effectively, or provide a good shopping experience for most readers.
Sorry, I've gone on too long already, especially as this isn't in the right topic.

[bainbridgezu]

Bill Lustig recently explained that the reason Blue Underground's upcoming releases of Maniac Cop 2 and 3 are dual-format is because another company already held the DVD rights, but that dual-format editions are contractually regarded as blu-ray releases, thus presenting no conflict if the BD and DVD rights are separate.

I wonder if the move to dual-format means that Criterion may be able to release some titles (The Last Detail, Age of Innocence) that have already been licensed to other labels for DVD?

[domino harvey]

Bill Lustig recently explained that the reason Blue Underground's upcoming releases of Maniac Cop 2 and 3 are dual-format is because another company already held the DVD rights, but that dual-format editions are contractually regarded as blu-ray releases, thus presenting no conflict if the BD and DVD rights are separate.

Huh, that's actually really interesting. Is there a link to that interview/write-up?

[bainbridgezu]

I couldn't find the original source, which may have been BU's facebook page, but this thread makes mention of it. I remember seeing more detailed information around the time of the announcement, but I'm not sure where.

Perhaps one of our industry pros could offer some insight as to whether this was a special case or something more broadly applicable?

[Moe Dickstein]

Each contract is different, just as CC licensed some titles originally only for DVD (the Par slate that is being upgraded piece by piece). Do you have some knowledge that Age and Detail were only licensed for DVD? I believe Mill Creek got licenses for all formats but perhaps just chose to release on DVD only, but can't say 100%.

[bainbridgezu]

Do you have some knowledge that Age and Detail were only licensed for DVD? I believe Mill Creek got licenses for all formats but perhaps just chose to release on DVD only, but can't say 100%.

That's entirely possible. I was just speculating based on several of the more conspicuous DVD-only titles, such as the ones I mentioned, being films that have recently undergone major restorations and/or been rumored for Criterion.

[dwk]

The Blue Underground info did come from their facebook page. Someone was complaining about being forced to buy Blu-rays and BU said

Our license agreement was limited to Blu-ray or Blu-ray Combo Pack only. First Look Pictures retained the DVD rights and are going to keep their DVDs in print. So it was either a Combo Pack or no DVD at all...

[Lemmy Caution]

That is interesting.
Sounds like a loophole future contracts, or perhaps even contract interpretations, will do away with after a while.

[jedgeco]

That is interesting.
Sounds like a loophole future contracts, or perhaps even contract interpretations, will do away with after a while.

I doesn't sound like a loophole, but rather something that is explicitly contemplated in Blue Undergound's agreement. If anything, it's a loophole for the rights holder, who has now effectively licensed the DVD rights twice.

[ShellOilJunior]

Every time I go to a Barnes and Noble it's crowded, but mostly by families. I am guessing most of us don't notice it if you're just making a bee-line to the movies section, but there's a reason their youth book section keeps getting bigger and bigger...

I'd be curious how many of these people are actually buying books.

Any BN I've been in seems to have the following:

-person goes in to check out a book, skim a page or two then goes home to buy it on Amazon
- Freddy Freeloader: picks up a newspaper or magazine, reads it on the couch but ultimately doesn't purchase it.

[cdnchris]

That is interesting.
Sounds like a loophole future contracts, or perhaps even contract interpretations, will do away with after a while.

I doesn't sound like a loophole, but rather something that is explicitly contemplated in Blue Undergound's agreement. If anything, it's a loophole for the rights holder, who has now effectively licensed the DVD rights twice.

If there's stuff like this going on then maybe my wish for a Criterion Blu-ray of Stalker will actually come to true since Kino said they only have the DVD rights to the film. (Ultimately don't care who releases it as long as it's better than the current DVD.)

[HistoryProf]

It is very much measurable, just the manufacturing cost of a single disc is approximately 150 grams emission of carbon dioxide. In addition to that you have valuable metals that will never come to use again.

](*,) Why are you even on CriterionForum if you are that violently opposed to making discs of any kind? And really, the manufacturing of anything can take away "valuable materials". Do you not use pencils because they take away from the Earth's supply of wood?

And when this inevitably gets split into the Infighting section, can I get to name it? How's "Discs for some, miniature American flags for others"?

Holy shit....this thread went completely bonkers. I was curious as to why it had kept going so I check in to see rants about the environmental impact of DVDs added in to the criticisms?

Every complaint here is patently absurd. There is nothing remotely negative about this choice - it's good for everyone, especially Criterion's bottom line. The latter is the most important as it will allow them to continue releasing amazing movies for years to come. Suggesting a boutique label's output is harmful to the environment is just so ludicrous I can't believe this guy is even real. What he should really be doing is petitioning the major studios to never release things like Grown Ups 2 - which alone will probably surpass Criterion's entire output for 2013.

[tenia]

it's good for everyone

Honestly, the only negative impact I would see is for DVD-buyers who will never upgrade to BD, because they will have to pay more for getting the movie on DVD.

[MichaelB]

Honestly, the only negative impact I would see is for DVD-buyers who will never upgrade to BD, because they will have to pay more for getting the movie on DVD.

I'm sure there'll be a thriving eBay market for Criterion BDs for people who don't mind the lack of packaging or booklet.

Reviewers in particular are more than used to dealing with arrangements like that - my copy of MoC's Van Gogh turned up yesterday in a clear packet, wrapped in a one-sheet press release.

[HistoryProf]

on the environmental issue:
two plastic cases. Two paper booklets, two covers and two kinds of discs all add up to much greater environmental impact than one plastic case, one paper booklet, one cover and two kinds of discs.

They're greatly reducing the environmental impact of their production by switching to dual format.

People just PERCEIVE DF as a greater environmental impact because they see an extra disc in their case and think, "what a WASTE, I have an extra." but they completely forget their perception is hopelessly skewed by being excessively local. If one was in the habit of buying both the DVD and the Bluray, then one would realize how substantially DF reduces the environmental impact of a criterion release.

Criterion pretty clearly puts the environmental concerns to rest in the letter:

What seemed like more waste was actually less. Instead of printing big overruns on two packages, we could now make one big, efficient run again. That would mean less wasted packaging. Discs can be printed in small quantities as needed, so there would be no wasted inventory there either.

The whole carbon footprint argument w/ the extra discs is moot, because those are printed in much smaller quantities on an as needed basis compared to the packaging, which is printed in much larger quantities. Ergo, only printing one run of packaging instead of two makes this a more environmentally friendly option in the end.

Oh, for crying out loud... I hope to god this dual-format policy does not last long. Waste is waste. If you have a blu-ray player, as most people do now, then you don't need the DVDs. If you only have a DVD player, then it might be time to go to Sears, Kmart, or Target and get yourself a $50 blu-ray player. I didn't expect Criterion to keep producing LDs when DVDs became popular and the format of choice. Grow/change or die. Soon another format will emerge and we'll be expected to convert over to it once it becomes cost effective to do so. I realize this... and BDs will go bye bye. I understand and expect this. I'm not going to expect Criterion or any other company to cater to my outdated whims.

See above....how about you catering to basic logic?

[HistoryProf]

4.) Go dual-format, dropping the per-unit cost, and keeping most of their Blu and DVD base, while also increasing profits... but lose Anthony as a customer

Hmmmmm...

Sorry to disappoint, but they aren't losing me as a customer.

And to your other point... limiting the releases to 3k or 5k... I believe the more you have to pay for something the more you cherish it. So I wouldn't have a problem if they had to raise their prices to $50+ to off-set their lower release volume.

oh jesus christ. now you're just fucking with us.

[MoonlitKnight]

While I understand and respect this decision from a business standpoint, I'm really not a fan of it from a personal standpoint. I'm one of those people who is still largely buying films on DVD... and am still only buying my absolute favorite films on Blu-ray (and those that were split over 2 discs/both sides of one disc in their DVD incarnations 8-[ ). I was only planning to buy "Frances Ha" on DVD, but now I no longer have that option. And I was planning to buy "Nashville" only on Blu since it is indeed one of my all-time favorite films and I already own the old Paramount DVD. But now I have to have a second version of it on DVD as well. #-o The different sizes of DVD cases vs. Blu-ray cases is also an issue, as I don't integrate the 2 formats in my personal library. Thus, "Frances Ha" won't be able to be beside my other Noah Baumbach films, which I all have on DVD. :-"

[domino harvey]

Is there a more frivolous level below First World Problems?

[Arrow]

Is there a more frivolous level below First World Problems?

The OCD here would shutter at my mismatched collection. I've been making my own dual formats for a while. I didn't want to give up a few of my dvd sets (A Night to Remember, Tin Drum, Solaris) so I got rid of the blu ray cases and added the blus to the Dvd sets. I added the Robocop blu disc to the Criterion Dvd too.

[tenia]

Is there a more frivolous level below First World Problems?

I'm quite sure we reached it some pages ago already. Especially since it's not the first time we're at the "it won't match the rest of my collection so screw it I won't buy it, shame on you Criterion to prevent me buying stuff I want to buy !"