Avengers: Infinity War/Endgame (Anthony & Joseph Russo, 2018/2019)

[HJackson]

Thought this was one of the better Marvel movies, and certainly the best Avengers flick since the first one. Age of Ultron, Civil War, and to a lesser extent Infinity War all had way too much going on and too many characters to keep track of so the big benefit going into this one is that the roster has been stripped back some and the film has time to breathe a little. I do share tenia's issues with the climactic battle sequence though.

Spoiler

I don't think Stark's ability to draw the stones into his gauntlet is explained in the movie but I have no problem believing that it's some tech he built into it. Very convenient and there's not much suspense - we're so deep into the picture that we instinctively know Thanos isn't going to get another snap off - but through it was a decent moment and a good way to send off the Iron Man character.

My big problem from a logic point of view - although I'm generally not much of a stickler for plot holes - is Captain America's ending. It sent the film off on a surprisingly wistful note which I liked and it "worked" in my opinion, but it totally contradicts the time travel logic they establish in the earlier scene where they rule out killing Baby Thanos. If killing Baby Thanos in the past doesn't eliminate Thanos and his influence from the rest of their present timeline because that past is simply "a new future" for the person who travelled to it, I don't see how he can travel back to the past and then progress forward through time back into his own past (the present). This would bug me far less than it does if they'd not spent so much time trying to establish an alternative schema for time travel (explicitly in opposition to eg Back to the Future) throughout the film.

[tenia]

Spoiler

I'm a bit bothered by older Cap America too, because this seems indeed to mean 2 different timelines merging together.

As for the climatic battle, to me it's just pretty much exactly the same kind of editing and filming than the one in IW, and it thus shares the same issue : it's supposedly epic, and it does start epic(ly CGIsed), but it quickly folds down to a much less epic scale, because it seems that nobody on board knows how to shoot such an epic scale. It's not unlike older action movies when the hero is surrounded by 15 bad guys, but they never attack simultaneously and all the fight is a succession of 1 v 1 smaller fights.

[SpiderBaby]

So changing the past doesn't alter the future in this movie? Is this the first time travel movie that goes that direction? How is that even possible?

Spoiler

As soon as they got 1 stone in the past it should have prevented the snap and everyone lived through those 5 dark years. Cap going back in time to live his life should have prevented Falcon from even knowing the Avengers and altered generations. Carter would have met someone else and had children, etc. But instead, they went with a plot where the characters took the stones that prevents the snap, yet the dead stayed dead through those 5 years. Which means Spider-man comes back, again 5 years later, and joins his unsnapped buddies, in his next movie, in the same grade class. What?

[tenia]

The idea is explained by the Ancient One : it doesn't alter the future, but creates a new alternative timeline. That's why we're unsure about how that ending can happen, because suddenly, it looks like 2 different timelines are merging somehow.
But I guess it's best not to look too much into this. They've been discussing this at length on blu-ray.com's dedicated thread, and the more it goes, the more it seems like a half-baked idea for a movie that's not smart enough to handle this.

[Big Ben]

Regarding physics:

Spoiler

The timeline is constructed that way because it prevents a grandfather paradox and prevents causality from being violated. Theoretically speaking there is an entire other Universe where the snap was not reversed. A divergent timeline simply now exists.

To be blunt, time travel isn't supposed to make sense. If it did we'd have a unified theory on how to do it in the real world rather than theoretical concepts.

I'm wondering if this is how they'll introduce the X-Men myself. Timelines and all that.

[Robespierre]

Much better than Infinity War because it has a conclusion that isn't going to obviously be retconned in the next film.

[Never Cursed]

I liked Endgame more than any other MCU movie I've seen, mostly for its deliberate pace and lack of big action sequences save one. It's refreshing to see one of these movies for once spend time dealing with the emotional consequences (for the characters, not for my unmoved self) of the previous films, which this does for a whole hour before the inevitable high-concept ridiculousness kicks in. Of course the plot violates its own internal logic several times over, but I would much, much rather that than Infinity War's logically coherent but hideous and slapdash nonstop superhero punchouts (compared to the chaos of Infinity War, there's hardly any actual fighting in this). Speaking of, Infinity War is perhaps the most useless movie ever made now that this has come out. There is just no reason for anyone to ever watch it again except to prepare oneself to see Endgame, and even then only because Endgame actively makes no sense without the setup. But Endgame is okay, and I'm certain that its consequences are actually going to stick, not that I'll ever see for myself.

[Persona]

Ended up seeing with some fam today. Oof.

'Bout halfway through the climactic Ready Player One battle I was just begging for the movie to end. This did have some effective moments, especially most of the stuff involving Stark, but overall I think I liked Infinity War better, and I didn't like Infinity War all that much. So many should-have-been-deleted scenes.

Anyways, my favorite part was 80% of the theater waiting through the credits for

Spoiler

a stinger that would never come.

[hearthesilence]

I took the 10 year old I mentor to see this tonight.

Did the kid like it? It's easy to shit on these movies when they really are that bad, but honestly it's not like we were connoisseurs of fine art when we were ten. I've got close relatives now who are very young and if they're really into this, I'm not going to badmouth it to them.

[Robespierre]

I took the 10 year old I mentor to see this tonight. I haven't seen any comic book movies since the Batman films. I am glad to report that all of my assumptions about this terrible film and films like it proved true. I felt basically nothing throughout the film, and there's really no stakes or suspense to speak of. There is a lot of fan service. Robert Downey Jr and Mark Ruffalo are very charming and enjoyable to watch almost always, so that was nice. But there were at least three actors I think are named Chris and I could hardly tell them apart.

You're out of your element, Drucker.

[Drucker]

I took the 10 year old I mentor to see this tonight.

Did the kid like it? It's easy to shit on these movies when they really are that bad, but honestly it's not like we were connoisseurs of fine art when we were ten. I've got close relatives now who are very young and if they're really into this, I'm not going to badmouth it to them.

He's tough to please. I'm not a parent, so I don't know how prevalent this is, but I took him to see Batman Lego Movie last year or so and he wanted to walk out. He may be a bit more impatient than me (I was NOT a film lover as a kid but I certainly never walked out of anything!).

That said at the moment

Spoiler

Captain America summoned Thor's Hammer

he jumped out of his seat and was as into it as everyone else in the packed theater was.

[cdnchris]

Spoiler

Speaking of, I don't get how Captain America was able to summon the hammer. I thought Thor was only able to do that and I recall gags around that in the other films.

Otherwise, cut an hour out of the film it would have been fine. 3 hours is pushing it, and if it had to be 3 I wish they spent more time with the mid section, which I thought was the most fun aspect of the film.

My son has a real issue with long movies and sitting in a theater, and has had trouble with some Marvel films. I debated on taking him to this, but he did so well at The Last Jedi (which was 2.5 hours) I decided to risk it. Other than one bathroom break he was glued the entire time, so take from that what you will.

[knives]

Spoiler

It's a reference to a comic thing that as far as I know has not been touched on in the movies. Basically only people pure of heart can wield the hammer.

[Apperson]

Spoiler

It's a reference to a comic thing that as far as I know has not been touched on in the movies. Basically only people pure of heart can wield the hammer.

Spoiler

It's very briefly foreshadowed in Age of Ultron when he slightly shifts the hammer trying to lift it with the others.

[tenia]

Spoiler

It's a reference to a comic thing that as far as I know has not been touched on in the movies. Basically only people pure of heart can wield the hammer.

Pretty much.

Spoiler

In the comics, recently, it was weird because it happened when Cap' was supposedly under the influence of the Hydra.

Spoiler

It's very briefly foreshadowed in Age of Ultron when he slightly shifts the hammer trying to lift it with the others.

Spoiler

That's indeed what prompts Thor to say "I knew it !"

[hearthesilence]

That said at the moment

Spoiler

Captain America summoned Thor's Hammer

he jumped out of his seat and was as into it as everyone else in the packed theater was.

Hah, I actually have the original comic where that first happens. (Sealed up in storage back in Illinois.)

I do know some people who are into these films who never read the comics, so it's always funny to me when they talk about a big surprise - it usually involves something that was published decades ago that's now more or less regurgitated on-screen.

Spoiler

Speaking of, I don't get how Captain America was able to summon the hammer. I thought Thor was only able to do that and I recall gags around that in the other films.

Spoiler

Everyone else has already explained, but last time I checked (and this was a long time ago, so the list has probably grown), there were three other people who were able to lift the hammer and wield the power of Thor. The first most famously was a space alien, and it launched a much lauded run of Thor stories written and drawn by Walt Simonson. The second was another big blonde haired guy in some alternate dimension - long story short, Thor's hammer accidentally ends up in his dimension, and when he picks it up, he gets Thor's powers and a version of his costume, and he liberates his people from a dictator before throwing the hammer back into its original dimension. The third was Captain America, who picks it up to throw it back to Thor to help him. I have all three of those issues, again in storage.

[Drucker]

Thank you for the background! This is all 100% new to me. I was not a comic book reader as a kid, nor am I now. All I can do is objectively judge these films using facts, reason, and logic, unfortunately.

[Drucker]

I also cannot stress to you how wild the theater went when the aforementioned spoiler-ed thing happened. Huge applause and hollering.

[knives]

Spoiler

It's occurred at least one other time with an NPC medic.

[tenia]

Oh, by the way :

Spoiler

What happens to Gamora during the epilogue ? She kicks Star Lord in the balls, then, he's looking to find her back in his ship's screen as if she's gone missing.

[Apperson]

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what's happened; as this is pre-GotG1 Gamora she has no attachment to Starlord or the rest of the crew she's run off to do whatever, and GotG3 will be about searching for her.

[hearthesilence]

I don't know how long Marvel's gonna roll, but if they ever do the moment where Spider-Man is endowed with Captain Universe powers (a storyline where he became more or less the coolest and most powerful superhero in the MCU), I'm sure the audience would go complete apeshit over that. Spider-Man suddenly taking off in flight, or punching the Hulk into space, or obliterating massively powerful villains with a single energy blast - it would be too easy.

Thank you for the background! This is all 100% new to me. I was not a comic book reader as a kid, nor am I now. All I can do is objectively judge these films using facts, reason, and logic, unfortunately.

No apologies, it's called GROWING UP.

[knives]

Thank you for the background! This is all 100% new to me. I was not a comic book reader as a kid, nor am I now. All I can do is objectively judge these films using facts, reason, and logic, unfortunately.

You kind of haven't though given that you admit to not seeing these films in context. It's a bit like saying Justified is a terrible show based on seeing one episode from season four and maybe a few from the first season.

[bearcuborg]

There was a silly post earlier about these movies not making coherent sense. Yeah, well-if you haven’t seen any of them, I guess they would seem that way. Nor would any of the deaths had any emotional impact.

If you google Thanos, and click his glove, you can make the search findings disappear.

[tenia]

You kind of haven't though given that you admit to not seeing these films in context. It's a bit like saying Justified is a terrible show based on seeing one episode from season four and maybe a few from the first season.

It is, IMO, suicidal to go see Endgame without having seen a good chunk of the previous MCU movies, but you still can pretty much skip quite a lot of them without missing much. Even the "replayed" ones are very superficially evoked, while the Phase One ones are so much Origin Story based that they can be skipped except for those who don't know who Thor or Iron Man is.
I'm most likely not neutral since I've seen most of them, but at a quick glance, I'd say only 7 of them are really required previous viewings (Infinity War, Ant Man 2, Thor Ragnarok, Doctor Strange, The Avengers, The First Avenger, and possibly Captain Marvel but that's one I haven't seen).